Why do ticket office know less ticketing rules than non-industry Railforum members?

[Haywain]

Part of the cause of friction is the assessment process for the role - not every TOC considers the ability to look things up as necessary for the role hence they don't test for it. Some TOCs don't carry out any assessments at all and see the role as somewhere to place people who are no longer able to do whatever other role they were doing on the basis that it can't be that hard to collect money and hand over a ticket.

I very much agree with this, especially the part about placing people from other roles because it's an "easy" job for someone medically displaced.

I would also add that in offices with multiple staff working, the reaction to not knowing the answer to something is usually to ask someone else rather than look it up. This results in often getting the wrong answer and never learning where to look for the right answer.

 

[zwk500]

I would also add that in offices with multiple staff working, the reaction to not knowing the answer to something is usually to ask someone else rather than look it up. This results in often getting the wrong answer and never learning where to look for the right answer.

Asking my colleague is almost always the first place I'd look for the right answer! I'd expect my colleague to be honest with me about whether or not they knew.

 

[Haywain]

Asking my colleague is almost always the first place I'd look for the right answer! I'd expect my colleague to be honest with me about whether or not they knew.

But if they say they know you will take their word for it. The problem is that they could be wrong. And this isn't intended to be a criticism of you or your colleague, more an observation of what I've seen and heard over the years. The person who gets asked the questions isn't necessarily the most knowledgeable, it's often that they are the nearest!

 

[maniacmartin]

In my (non-railway) job, there are some colleagues I would take their word on and some whose answers I always double check. The trick is working out which colleague should be put in which category!

 

[Hadders]

In my (non-railway) job, there are some colleagues I would take their word on and some whose answers I always double check. The trick is working out which colleague should be put in which category!

Absolutely agree. I have exactly the same in my (non-railway) job. My work involves being a subject matter expert in my particular field. It’s not feasible for everyone to know absolutely everything about everything so the trick is knowing who the experts are in any particular area!

 

[RJ]

All Ticket Issuing Systems go through the same accreditation process, but there's no requirement to link timetable and fare enquiries (given a mobile TIS will almost always only be used for immediate travel) and those that do link the two will rely on staff knowledge to work out how to ticket an otherwise invalid route.

Plus there are occasions where validity doesn't enter into it, such as if you're using an area Rover/Ranger or a staff pass rather than a point-to-point ticket.

Those systems can be a menace to what should be simple sales. As a customer I think the idea should be shelved in favour of training staff to sell the appropriate fare.

I went to a FasTiS+ equipped station in South London once and asked for a point to point ticket, Ramsgate to Southampton or similar via Barnham. The clerk couldn't work out how to sell it because the fastest journeys were via London. He concluded that he could only sell tickets routed Any Permitted and couldn't issue the ticket.

Another time I went to a London Terminal south of the river and asked for an Off Peak Return from London Terminals to Rannoch to avoid waiting in the queue at Euston. Same FasTIS+ system, they tried to sell me a Zone U12 - Rannoch SVR (bearing in mind using this would be illegal with the discount I was using) and said they couldn't issue it from London Terminals and I'd have to come back another time when someone who could do it was around.

Then there was the time at Liverpool I was refused a Liverpool to Shenstone Super Off Peak ticket. The restriction was programmed into the computer incorrectly which erroneously showed journey plans with a change of trains between 1630 and 1930 as invalid. Despite the restriction text clearly allowing journeys to start before 1630, the clerk refused to read this or issue the ticket and I ended up paying for a more expensive Off Peak ticket which I never did get reimbursed for.

Realistic expectations. Whilst there’s certainly scope for booking offices to be better in general, it does seem to be a RailUK Forums bandwagon to bash them. It does have to be borne in mind that many people here are likely to be seeking more obscure forms of ticket, so there are going to be a disproportionate number of issues compared to the average Joe Public.

I think it's worth being aware that sometimes it's really simple tickets that people are struggling to buy and it won't only be affecting enthusiasts. Nothing should be more simple to issue than a specific point to point ticket a customer requests! Some of the situations I've experienced as a customer;

"I can't sell you a Bedford to Luton Airport Parkway SOR because that distance is too short for an open return"
"I can't sell you an Off Peak Day Travelcard to travel before 0930 on a Saturday"
"I'm not going to sell you a via Norwich routed ticket because it's quicker to go via Cambridge"

 

[wilbers]

What would happen in the unusual situation such as some posted in this thread where the ticket office refused to sell a specific ticket that was asked for and there wasn't another member of staff in the office that could be asked. If it was given in writing that they won't sell a ticket that is valid and exists, would that mean it could be bought on the train if its one of the few types that couldn't be bought at a ticket machine? (though the examples in the last few posts look like they could all be bought from a TVM).

 

[bramling]

I think it's worth being aware that sometimes it's really simple tickets that people are struggling to buy and it won't only be affecting enthusiasts. Nothing should be more simple to issue than a specific point to point ticket a customer requests! Some of the situations I've experienced as a customer;

Not disagreeing with this at all, indeed I've had same with simple stuff. However this isn't a *knowledge* issue (in my opinion), but more a competence one. In one of my instances where I got sold an incorrect ticket the root cause would appear to be language issues.

 

[RJ]

What would happen in the unusual situation such as some posted in this thread where the ticket office refused to sell a specific ticket that was asked for and there wasn't another member of staff in the office that could be asked. If it was given in writing that they won't sell a ticket that is valid and exists, would that mean it could be bought on the train if its one of the few types that couldn't be bought at a ticket machine? (though the examples in the last few posts look like they could all be bought from a TVM).

Unfortunately the NRCoT doesn't cover this scenario. If there are barriers, I'd buy the cheapest ticket to get through them and sort it at the first opportunity. If there aren't then I wouldn't bother and would still actively try to sort it at the first opportunity. I wouldn't hold my breath on getting written confirmation from a ticket office clerk that they refused to sell a valid ticket.

 

[Dai Corner]

What would happen in the unusual situation such as some posted in this thread where the ticket office refused to sell a specific ticket that was asked for and there wasn't another member of staff in the office that could be asked. If it was given in writing that they won't sell a ticket that is valid and exists, would that mean it could be bought on the train if its one of the few types that couldn't be bought at a ticket machine? (though the examples in the last few posts look like they could all be bought from a TVM).

Don't ticket offices have someone they can ring for advice on things they're unsure about?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don't ticket offices have someone they can ring for advice on things they're unsure about?

With LNER it's usualy me or Haywain but that isn't really part of our job.

 

[RJ]

Don't ticket offices have someone they can ring for advice on things they're unsure about?

My first port of call would be the retail management team - but they're never on shift when I am.

The next port of call would be a principal station at a TOC which should be able to help - I haven't done this since the railway switchboard system closed down a few years ago though.

Otherwise it's phone a friend. I've been getting calls from people at various TOCs about ticket related matters for years now and never have a problem with helping if I can. On rare occasions I've WhatsApped people for tips.

 

[AlterEgo]

Isn't there a contradiction between the argument that 'we need to keep ticket offices open because passengers rely on their expertise' vs what is said here of 'why should you expect ticket office staff to have any special expertise'?

Yes, and also:

"Why should a railway ticket be so complicated a purchase that you need a trained member of staff to sell the right one to you?"

 

[Wallsendmag]

My first port of call would be the retail management team - but they're never on shift when I am.

That doesn't seem to stop me getting calls at Sunday Lunchtime

 

[muz379]

That's not necessarily the case. Good TOCs provide their staff with all retail briefs that could affect customers in their area of operation.

Thats why I said "arent necessarilly" , indeed some are better than others

 

[Haywain]

That's not necessarily the case. Good TOCs provide their staff with all retail briefs that could affect customers in their area of operation.

Genuine question: do you or have you ever worked for a TOC?

 

[Hadders]

That's not necessarily the case. Good TOCs provide their staff with all retail briefs that could affect customers in their area of operation.

At my work there are comprehensive briefing packs for everything. Doesn't mean they always get followed.

 

[Birmingham]

A ticket office I recently asked for a change of route excess had 'never heard of excess fares', with the usual cherry on the top of having 'been here X years and never done that'. Before I explained what exactly they are for, they even suggested that it 'sounds like trying to cheat the system!'

To be fair, they did agree to write me a stamped note for the ticket inspector on my first train that they were unable to issue the excess (I know you are theoretically allowed to get these on-board but it doesn't hurt).

 

[DorkingMain]

A ticket office I recently asked for a change of route excess had 'never heard of excess fares', with the usual cherry on the top of having 'been here X years and never done that'. Before I explained what exactly they are for, they even suggested that it 'sounds like trying to cheat the system!'

To be fair, they did agree to write me a stamped note for the ticket inspector on my first train that they were unable to issue the excess (I know you are theoretically allowed to get these on-board but it doesn't hurt).

Especially as you don't want to run into a member of staff that doesn't know or care for the fact you're allowed to do them on-board

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2022 ==

That's not necessarily the case. Good TOCs provide their staff with all retail briefs that could affect customers in their area of operation.

Even in the case of good TOCs who do compile this information and send it out to their staff - you're often peppered with so much information from so many angles, that it's impossible to read it all unless you want to sit at home doing homework on it every evening, or you can remember where you saw the brief and are able to dig for it in a hurry.

 

[317 forever]

I have to say that my local booking office (Crewe) has always been very helpful and accurate in providing information. Suggesting appropriate Day Rover tickets where they would be cheaper than a conventional Day Return or exploring splitting options for example.

I believe a case in point is when travelling from Crewe to Worcester. In 2019 I found the West Midlands Day Ranger cheaper then any Singles. Plus I was able to do some detours via recently electrified lines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2022 ==

The funny thing for me is, I only go to a ticket office when I have something weird and complex! If it's a simple point to point ticket I can do it myself on a TVM.

So I expect ticket office staff to be well-versed in weird and complex tickets!

I had a proper shocker at Euston the other month - arrived from St Pancras off an early morning Eurostar, got to Euston around 9am wishing to catch the 09:20 to Stockport:

Me: "I'd like a Euro Saver Single from London International (CIV) to Stockport, please" <shows Eurostar ticket>
Euston man: "There's no point as it's the same price as a normal off-peak single"
Me: "The ticket conditions are more generous and I'd still like it please"
Euston man: "That'll be £68.30 <or whatever>"
Me: <Pays>
Euston man: <Hands me a bloody normal off-peak single, which isn't valid on the 09:20 I want to catch!>
Me: "This isn't the ticket I explicitly told you I wanted!"

We then had to faff around refunding that ticket and eventually getting my Euro Saver Single only without 2 minutes to spare for the 09:20.

If I had missed that train I'd be fuming!

--

Edit: Add for colour, I don't want this to be a whinge as there are many great and wonderful and knowledgable ticket staff out there - Marylebone and York come to mind as recent great experiences.

Also obviously there is no excuse for rudeness and abuse from passengers, I can only imagine staff must get it a lot and hard to put up with. I always make a point of being smiling and friendly and polite.

I found a ticket clerk at York helpful in 2017. I needed a walk-up Single to Newcastle but knew there were some different fares for different TOCs.

I expressed awareness that the Cross Country one was cheaper than the Any Permitted one and he told me the fare. He went beyond the call of duty by mentioning the cheaper TPE one but pointed out the timing being IIRC around half an hour later.

I asked about the fare for the VTEC train due, which he quoted and gently emphasised was almost double the fare (as there was no VTEC only fare available).

I did immediately commit to the XC journey. He took care to prepare me it was (again IIRC) the Glasgow Central train from platform 8, no doubt to warn me not to board the VTEC train.

A happy postscript was that my XC train was a 125 and hardly busy at all.

 

[miklcct]

A while ago at Euston I tried to excess an Any Permitted London - Leighton Buzzard ticket to an Any Permitted London - Milton Keynes ticket in order to travel on a non-stop Avanti train to Milton Keynes, and the ticket office refused because they said it was an LNR ticket. They suggest me to buy another Leighton Buzzard - Milton Keynes ticket instead (which would not be valid on a non-stop train).

As a result I didn't made the discretionary journey.

If you have any examples of that, it would be interesting to hear them! It may be best in a separate thread though (feel free to tag me in).

Examples of invalid include advising people to go to a station a long way past their destination, (and I mean long) then to double back.

Illogical, well where do I start. I've seen journey planner send someone on a great long way round via an invalid route and 4 changes, and it turned out that if I overrode it to 1 change only, it came up with a journey that was one minute longer. OK, thats an extreme example, but I've seen it happen.

That's bad timetabling, rather than system fault. Journey planners normally provide the fastest journeys as they are what most people want.

I've seen people quoting "google maps told me to do this" and it involved journeys in London including buses and Underground on journeys in some fantasy world where everything runs precisely on time.

Google Maps and Citymapper produce much more realistic journey times than other tools when one always catch the first train towards the desired direction.

when anyone wishes to go anywhere out of Waterloo, journey planner has a fondness of sending people via Vauxhall and Clapham Junction, therefore creating so much extra work for the passenger when (s)he would be so much better advised to make his/her way to Waterloo so (s)he can sit on the train at it's starting point. And where there are decent facilities. It also has a fondness of sending anyone going to a station such as Feltham, Surbiton, Epsom etc via Vauxhall. That is fine in the warmer months of the year, but I'm not fond of condemming someone to waiting at Vauxhall on a cold winter evening.

Vauxhall is a much easier change than Waterloo. If the train stops at Vauxhall, I'd rather prefer taking the Victoria line there than boarding at Waterloo unless boarding at Waterloo can save me a change. Moreover, Vauxhall is in zone 2 which delivers cheaper fare as well.

Similarly, I prefer changing at Clapham Junction for long distance trains because it's also an easier change than Waterloo. I prefer Overground - Clapham Junction compared to Jubilee - Waterloo, because the Overground and Clapham Junction are nicer than the Tube and Waterloo and they avoid zone 1.

Similarly because its programmed to give the shortest duration of journey, it advises people to hang around at their starting point, for the last possible train that connects with the next train for their journey, again not taking into account that at the interchange station, there will probably be better facilities and a pleasanter waiting enviroment. Plus it's always wise to get the first available train to get closer to your destination, in case of a delay, however unlikely that may seem at the time.

Journey planners take account into the interchange station. They choose the one with the easiest change to minimise journey time. For example, Vauxhall compared to Waterloo.

And nothing stops you to take the first train along the route Google Maps provide. I generally do that, once the fastest route is obtained, I travel immediately on the route provided.

 

[RJ]

A while ago at Euston I tried to excess an Any Permitted London - Leighton Buzzard ticket to an Any Permitted London - Milton Keynes ticket in order to travel on a non-stop Avanti train to Milton Keynes, and the ticket office refused because they said it was an LNR ticket. They suggest me to buy another Leighton Buzzard - Milton Keynes ticket instead (which would not be valid on a non-stop train).

As a result I didn't made the discretionary journey.

If you’re going to get an overdistance excess, do it somewhere else. Maybe at the ticket office on your outbound journey.

It’s not that they don’t know how to at Euston, but if they think you’re trying to be smart with the fares, there is a possibility the sale may be refused and you’ll be offered a split that won’t let you do what you want to do. Same goes for overdistancing Off Peak Returns to Lancaster/Flint/Welshpool in the PM peak.

 

[TUC]

If you’re going to get an overdistance excess, do it somewhere else. Maybe at the ticket office on your outbound journey.

It’s not that they don’t know how to at Euston, but if they think you’re trying to be smart with the fares the sale might be refused and you’ll be offered a split that won’t let you do what you want to do. Same goes for overdistancing Off Peak Returns to Lancaster/Flint/Welshpool in the PM peak.

By being 'smart with the fares' do you mean a passenger just simply knowing how they operate? That's just being a well informed customer.

 

[RJ]

By being 'smart with the fares' do you mean a passenger just simply knowing how they operate? That's just being a well informed customer.

It’s the same thing.

Some places see people actively asking for excesses in the kind of circumstances described as unwanted custom - and would prefer to sell a new ticket or an extension that doesn’t grant use of faster trains or “peak” trains.

Other places really couldn’t care less so long as it’s legitimate.

 

[TUC]

It’s the same thing. And for some places it’s unwanted custom in certain circumstances.

Maybe those staff and TOCs seeing it as unwanted custom should be reminded of the Impartial Retailer requirements, and be reminded where the door is if they don't want to work within them.

 

[Haywain]

Maybe those staff and TOCs seeing it as unwanted custom should be reminded of the Impartial Retailer requirements, and be reminded where the door is if they don't want to work within them.

Some are impartially awkward.

 

[RJ]

Maybe those staff and TOCs seeing it as unwanted custom should be reminded of the Impartial Retailer requirements, and be reminded where the door is if they don't want to work within them.

I’ve heard it debated whether excess fares come within scope.

The Conditions of Travel do make vague or direct references to excess fares where a change of route, ticket type or class is concerned but is there anything in there which infers there’s any right to buy, or obligation to be sold an overdistance excess?

 

[TUC]

I’ve heard it debated whether excess fares come within scope.

The Conditions of Travel do make vague or direct references to excess fares where a change of route, ticket type or class is concerned but is there anything in there which infers there’s any right to buy, or obligation to be sold an overdistance excess?

It isn't the overdidtance excess that's the issue. It's that of passengers wanting to make use of a fare that is less advantageous for the TOC running the booking office.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I bought a simple Off-Peak Return at a local TfW station last week, no problem.
I like to think I have a decent grasp of the ticketing system with all its foibles, split ticketing, time restrictions, Rovers and Rangers etc.

The following customer wanted tickets for 3 adults and 7 children to Liverpool, for a museums trip.
I confess I wouldn't have a clue how to price that up and issue the best value tickets.
The TfW web site is silent about group travel.
There are 3 routes, all involving changes, two involving Merseyrail and one offering a limited service on TfW to Liverpool.
The ticketing possibly had differing conditions on each route.
Or you could pay to Chester and use Merseyrail's group travel options (which are promoted).
I didn't wait to see how it turned out, but that would challenge any booking clerk.
Luckily the party wanted to travel next day rather than immediately, so there was time for thinking!

 

[Cambus731]

Google Maps and Citymapper produce much more realistic journey times than other tools when one always catch the first train towards the desired direction.



Vauxhall is a much easier change than Waterloo. If the train stops at Vauxhall, I'd rather prefer taking the Victoria line there than boarding at Waterloo unless boarding at Waterloo can save me a change. Moreover, Vauxhall is in zone 2 which delivers cheaper fare as well.

Similarly, I prefer changing at Clapham Junction for long distance trains because it's also an easier change than Waterloo. I prefer Overground - Clapham Junction compared to Jubilee - Waterloo, because the Overground and Clapham Junction are nicer than the Tube and Waterloo and they avoid zone 1.



Journey planners take account into the interchange station. They choose the one with the easiest change to minimise journey time. For example, Vauxhall compared to Waterloo.

And nothing stops you to take the first train along the route Google Maps provide. I generally do that, once the fastest route is obtained, I travel immediately on the route provided.

Hello there. I'm not familliar with Citymapper, but I must regrettably disagree about googlemaps, when it comes to making journey within London by public transport. I've seen several recommendations by googlemaps and it does very much in my view create unneccesarily complicated journey involving more changes than is desirable, working on an assumption that ever bus, tram, tube train will be precisely on time. A lot of the punters I have to advise will be nowhere near as familliar with getting around London as you (and me) are fortunate enough to be, and I find myself having to advise them to make their journey a lot simpler than google maps would recommend.
As for your points regarding Vauxhall, well with respect, what works for you (who I presume resides in outer London or close by maybe,) simply would not work for the punters that I have to advise. Changing at Vauxhall is great on the way out if there is a direct train to the final destination, but in cases where it then also neccesitates an additional change at Clapham Junction, I don't think that is good advice for the regular passenger. I appreciate it works for you and it would probably work for me, but I do deal with passengers who aren't as au fait as you and me in getting around, and may well be carrying luggage. That is not to insult the intelligence of the passengers, but it is worth noting that in most cases they won't be as familliar as you, me or most people on this forum, with getting around. I long ago came to the conclusion that they are better advised to travel via Waterloo. What I probably didn't make clear in my earlier post, is that the passengers I deal with are not only possibly unfamilar with making these journeys, but are also commencing their journey at a station which will require them to travel into London and then cross over to either Waterloo or Vauxhall. It really is better for them to avoid having to change again at Clapham Junction. I do think Vauxhall is a better interchange when travelling into London as one doesn't then have to wait on the platforms in that scenario. And as I said before, I certainly advise against, when practically possible, doing a journey which involves waiting around on the platforms on a cold dark evening at Vauxhall. I do take on board your points about avoiding Zone 1. That is a very good point. And obviously relevant to yourself and other people who make similar journeys, but I'm afraid it isn't relevant to virtually all the punters that I have to advise about changing onto SWR trains as they will have started back from a station a long way out to London. .

"And nothing stops you to take the first train along the route Google Maps provide. I generally do that, once the fastest route is obtained, I travel immediately on the route provided."
As for the last point, I do agree with you about nothing stopping them catching an earlier train, yes you are quite correct on that and I do tend to encourage people to get the first available train to the interchange point, mainly because the interchange station almost always offers a pleasanter waiting enviroment. Especially in the colder months of the year.