Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[387star]

The class 165/166 is why I and everyone else I know in the business community have stopped using the train between Southampton/Romsey and Bristol.
There is absolutely no way we will pay gigantic amounts of money to sit and cook in filthy, stinking, howling, squalid run-down clapped-out threadbare trains when a near silent non-polluting electric car can whisk us to our destination in air-conditioned silence door to door running on renewable energy.
We have also stopped using Cross Country to Birmingham for the same reasons.
The class 165s and 166s are only suitable for recycling and nobody should be expected to endure such conditions on lengthy cross-country journeys in the 21st Century. Even when refurbished they are a disgrace and it is insulting to offer such a ’service’ to the public.

How did you cope when 150/1, /9 and /0s were used as stand ins? They had their original interiors and were noisy as hell though limited to 75mph apparently

 

[Wokingham]

hopefully waiting to be able to make a bigger order for more 800s to allow a cascade or a newer design

 

[Doomotron]

But GWR has two extremes of train, ones for high speed, and ones for local services, nothing in between. It has never bothered to source a 100mph bi-mode for its important long distance routes that don’t serve London, it is mix of 158, 165, 166 DMUs and castle shorted HST, all of which are 30-50 year old designs with partial modernisation, far from ideal.

Good Turbostars would have been sensible but I guess the best we can hope for is 158s, which out of the ones you mention are the most appropriate for long-distance routes. That is, after all, why they were built in the first place.

 

[Class360/1]

Good Turbostars would have been sensible but I guess the best we can hope for is 158s, which out of the ones you mention are the most appropriate for long-distance routes. That is, after all, why they were built in the first place.

Hopefully the situation will ease if more 158s go to GWR.

To summarise, 166/165s are best suited for non electrified commuter routes, not long distance routes

 

[fgwrich]

If only someone had had the foresight to remove and re-use the ex HST seats for these units... at least that would have made them a little more bearable. Presumably the refresh for the 3 cars and 166s will keep the interior the same but recovered into GWR (as per the current refreshed 2 cars).

 

[Parallel]

If only someone had had the foresight to remove and re-use the ex HST seats for these units... at least that would have made them a little more bearable. Presumably the refresh for the 3 cars and 166s will keep the interior the same but recovered into GWR (as per the current refreshed 2 cars).

I believe the seating layouts on most rows can't be altered due to the mechanics under the seats unfortunately - but I agree, they should eventually be focused on local or non-electrified commuter routes. As someone who uses them quite often on the Cardiff, Portsmouth, Worcester and Weymouth corridors via Bristol, anything more than an hour of so on the standard seats can be quite uncomfortable. Also no fold down tables or arm rests!

Unfortunately the refurbishment of the 166s, if akin to the 165s, will be a re-paint and a moquette change. I doubt they'll change the carpet as it was changed recently, although clearly needs some attention to detail as it is fraying/coming up in areas on some units. It would be great if they could remove the unreliable air conditioning and fit air cooling which is in use on the 2-car 165s but I doubt that anything will get done.

Hopefully the small toilets on the 166s will also be returned to working order, as nearly every one I've travelled on has been out of service - Some seem to have been out of service for years!

I still can't fathom why they went for light grey floor covering on the refurbished 165s, it is already looking grimy and dirty.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If only someone had had the foresight to remove and re-use the ex HST seats for these units... at least that would have made them a little more bearable. Presumably the refresh for the 3 cars and 166s will keep the interior the same but recovered into GWR (as per the current refreshed 2 cars).

I just can’t imagine the Turbos fitted with those tall Grammar seats. I think they’d be very claustrophobic, particularly the 166, being darker and far less open. They’d look daft too.

 

[Doomotron]

I just can’t imagine the Turbos fitted with those tall Grammar seats. I think they’d be very claustrophobic, particularly the 166, being darker and far less open. They’d look daft too.

I disagree; I think they'd make them more like Turbostars inside. The smaller windows are an unavoidable issue and means some seats would go without a full window, but a good colour scheme will make it bright and airy inside. Unfortunately GWR's colour scheme isn't one of those bright colour schemes and the Class 170 works as evidence that a dark colour scheme will make it feel unpleasant.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Either way, it's pie in the sky as the HST seats are either still in use or largely disposed of or rotten, and we probably shouldn't speculate in this thread anyway.

That said, it will be very interesting to see if the refresh/refurbishment of the 166s is more extensive than that of the 165s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Looks like 166219 is going to have a few days at Reading having gone up there on the weekly 3 car 16x changeover move this evening.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looks like 166219 is going to have a few days at Reading having gone up there on the weekly 3 car 16x changeover move this evening.

I've responded to this in the appropriate thread about 16x Diagrams here:

GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

Find below all the current Turbo diagrams for GWR in both Bristol and Reading. Bristol Diagrams Diagrams usually change day to day depending on unit availability and maintenance. As of now, Turbos are on all local routes around Bristol having also recently started on Cardiff - Portsmouth...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[FenMan]

The 165 and 166 refurbishment doesn’t magically make them suitable for 3.5 hour services, it just makes then less tatty but still unsuitable.

Firstly, 165s are my bread and butter as a passenger - they are absolutely fine going to and fro between Gatwick to Reading, and are much better since the new air-cooling system was fitted. But, they are tatty. If the refurb of the 3-car 165s happens before the 769s are finally (if ever) introduced on the line then I'll be happy.

I get it the Turbos were designed to be high-capacity units chugging around the Thames Valley and their suitability in a 3-2 seating arrangement is more than questionable for long-distance journeys. That said, there are two things:-

Is better stock available to cover the Portsmouth - Cardiff route? (no, there isn't - while 158s deliver a nicer journey experience for long-distance passengers, there aren't enough of them and they're crippled by lack of capacity).

GWR know the mix of long-distance and short-distance passengers on the route. My guess is the revenue from the latter is higher than from the former. So GWR have come to the view, as suitable rolling stock doesn't exist, that 166s can serve a purpose. That's not great news for those making longer journeys with higher expectations, such as tray tables to accommodate laptops and so on. But I'm struggling to see how GWR can play this any better in the short to medium term, apart from refurbing these units as fast as they can.

 

[supervc-10]

I don't have a problem with 165/166s, it's with the state of the things that is the main problem. Something akin to the 195s is what's needed in terms of cabin layout, in a 5 or 6 car configuration, and preferably bi-mode to take advantage of some of the electrification on the route. The refurb is needed- because my idealistic bi-mode units are probably 10 years away, given current trends- but it's still just plastering over the cracks.

 

[Cowley]

Just a reminder that this about the Autumn refresh for GWR 165s and 166s.
If anyone wants to discuss other offshoots that have come up in the thread then feel free to start a new thread in the relevant section and if there’s any posts from this thread that you’d like including then let us know and we’ll move them.

Thanks everyone

 

[DelW]

Firstly, 165s are my bread and butter as a passenger - they are absolutely fine going to and fro between Gatwick to Reading, and are much better since the new air-cooling system was fitted. But, they are tatty. If the refurb of the 3-car 165s happens before the 769s are finally (if ever) introduced on the line then I'll be happy.

Indeed the 165s I used in last week's heatwave were coping very well and were surprisingly cool.

I really don't understand the hatred directed at these units in posts like #475. The worst that I could say about the trains I used on the Downs last week is that some of the seat covers had threadbare patches, but that will be dealt with by the refurb (as will the pink First Group grab poles). I can understand that they're not great for long-distance journeys, but they weren't ever intended for those.

 

[Avidfan]

Can't believe it's 30 years since I worked on the design of both of these at St Peter's House in Derby and supporting the build at York works. Never travelled on either. In my mind's eye they're brand new - do they really need a refurb?

 

[JN114]

Can't believe it's 30 years since I worked on the design of both of these at St Peter's House in Derby and supporting the build at York works. Never travelled on either. In my mind's eye they're brand new - do they really need a refurb?

I think if they’d stayed “original” rather than having the interiors repainted and retrimmed in FGWL/FGW days they’d probably be ok today.

The blues, pinks and purples from the First Group corporate collection didn’t hold up nearly as well as the greys and blues of the NSE/Thames treatment of the units.

 

[FenMan]

Can't believe it's 30 years since I worked on the design of both of these at St Peter's House in Derby and supporting the build at York works. Never travelled on either. In my mind's eye they're brand new - do they really need a refurb?

Given how successful they've been (and continue to be), despite the aircon failings that are now being fixed (at last!), I think they could use a re-fresh.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 30/07 5Q81 0628 Wolverton - St Philips Marsh dep 0604 165134
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03137/2022-07-30/detailed

STP 30/07 5Q72 1245 St Philips Marsh - Wolverton dep 1020 165137
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03136/2022-07-30/detailed

 

[Snow1964]

Just been at my local station where the 2E55 Westbury-Gloucester was cancelled and public address is given reason as more trains than normal needing repairs

So seems GWR has hit a crisis point with turbos as unable to provide enough for the service

Just checked real-time trains and apparently will start from Bristol with 166216 but is saying planned train swapped with a slower train (it was booked for a 90mph train, unless 166216 is being pressed into service with an inoperative engine), which again suggests crisis level of rolling stock available

Seems to be lots of single unit workings in Wessex today including summer holiday trains to Weymouth

 

[JohnRegular]

Just been at my local station where the 2E55 Westbury-Gloucester was cancelled and public address is given reason as more trains than normal needing repairs

So seems GWR has hit a crisis point with turbos as unable to provide enough for the service

Just checked real-time trains and apparently will start from Bristol with 166216 but is saying planned train swapped with a slower train (it was booked for a 90mph train, unless 166216 is being pressed into service with an inoperative engine), which again suggests crisis level of rolling stock available

Seems to be lots of single unit workings in Wessex today including summer holiday trains to Weymouth

I noticed a couple of 2-car formations on Cardiff-Portsmouth yesterday. Mostly kept away from the peaks, but one hit Bath at half 5 headed towards Cardiff. Oof. 2-car is inadequate for that route outside of the absolute quietest times as I'm sure you're aware- I foolishly thought the days of such short trains were behind us...

 

[FGW_DID]

Just been at my local station where the 2E55 Westbury-Gloucester was cancelled and public address is given reason as more trains than normal needing repairs

So seems GWR has hit a crisis point with turbos as unable to provide enough for the service

Just checked real-time trains and apparently will start from Bristol with 166216 but is saying planned train swapped with a slower train (it was booked for a 90mph train, unless 166216 is being pressed into service with an inoperative engine), which again suggests crisis level of rolling stock available

Seems to be lots of single unit workings in Wessex today including summer holiday trains to Weymouth

Crisis point! Typical forum overreaction to more trains being stopped than there should be. It happens. Trains break, quite often at the last minute. How many spares do you suggest we have kicking around the depots? Then with all these units sat on a depot TOCs be accused of under utilising traction, not providing enough seats or not strengthening crowded trains!

I noticed a couple of 2-car formations on Cardiff-Portsmouth yesterday. Mostly kept away from the peaks, but one hit Bath at half 5 headed towards Cardiff. Oof. 2-car is inadequate for that route outside of the absolute quietest times as I'm sure you're aware- I foolishly thought the days of such short trains were behind us...

Not an ideal situation at all, is that what the service is booked for or was it a short form? A 2 car train trumps no train at all.

 

[Dai Corner]

Crisis point! Typical forum overreaction to more trains being stopped than there should be. It happens. Trains break, quite often at the last minute. How many spares do you suggest we have kicking around the depots? Then with all these units sat on a depot TOCs be accused of under utilising traction, not providing enough seats or not strengthening crowded trains!

Enough to ensure the agreed number of trains can be kept in service? I appreciate that's not straightforward, especially when depots order parts and find they're not available within the timescales they expect.

 

[JN114]

Just been at my local station where the 2E55 Westbury-Gloucester was cancelled and public address is given reason as more trains than normal needing repairs

So seems GWR has hit a crisis point with turbos as unable to provide enough for the service

Just checked real-time trains and apparently will start from Bristol with 166216 but is saying planned train swapped with a slower train (it was booked for a 90mph train, unless 166216 is being pressed into service with an inoperative engine), which again suggests crisis level of rolling stock available

Seems to be lots of single unit workings in Wessex today including summer holiday trains to Weymouth

What really happened was this:

The unit for 2G79 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W44380/2022-08-10/detailed) was trapped in Bristol overnight, so wasn't in place for the start of service. 2G79 is a bit of a critical train; as it's the start of the West / Thames Valley Turbo change over.

When 2G79 gets to Worcester, it forms 2E80 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W44223/2022-08-10/detailed), which then from Didcot is one of the 3, all-day Didcot/Oxford/Banbury Turbo shuttles.

Ordinarily, that isn't too much of an issue. If West don't have a unit for 2G79, then the swap around of units in the Worcester area doesn't happen; and 2E77 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W44220/2022-08-10/detailed) just comes back south as 2E80, and the cancellations are self-contained to West.

But today, due to the refresh programme that this thread is actually about, that wasn't possible - 165136 on 2E77 needed to carry on with its planned work so it ended up at St Phillps Marsh tonight so that it can get sorted out to go away for its refresh tomorrow.

Plan B would have been to take a spare unit up from Reading to Oxford to start 2E80 from Oxford or maybe Moreton-in-Marsh; however none was available.

So Plan C was to take the originally trapped unit from Bristol straight to Oxford - 5Z23 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:67086/2022-08-10/detailed) - but to do that needed an additional driver. There were none spare so on balance of cancellations it was decided it was better to cancel a round trip between Bristol and Westbury (2C06 with your 2E55 starting Bristol), than end up with 1/3rd of the Didcot/Oxford/Banbury service cancelled.

Unfortunately there is no elegant way of putting all that into Journey Check and all the other downstream systems/Apps. There isn't a free-form box to type out some wonderful narrative explanation, just a drop down of reasons for the delay/cancellation to choose from (listed here: https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php?title=Darwin:Cancellation_reason_codes_and_text)

So no Rolling Stock crisis; - just a few unforeseen issues culminating in a particular set of cancellations.

That, coupled with limitations in having to follow a pre-defined list of delay/cancellation reasons in Journey Check, Apps etc. is why it all seems a bit confusing; and why armchair analysis is never going to tell the full story.

 

[Dai Corner]

Thanks for interesting explanation @JN114

I know this is going off topic and if discussion continues we should start a new thread, but West Midlands Trains do manage to include freeform text in their Journeycheck. At the time of writing it says

Alterations to services at Rugeley Town

Due to a fault with the signalling system at Rugeley Town the line towards Birmingham is disrupted.
Impact
Train services running through this station may be delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
Customer Advice
We expect some of our trains to be affected by this incident. To see how this might affect you, please use the Live Departure & Arrival Boards or plan your journey using the National Rail Enquiries real-time journey planner.
Further Information
What's happened? Due to a heat related fault with the signalling system at Rugeley Town the line towards Birmingham is disrupted.Train services running through this station may be delayed or revised
How long will this last? * We cannot estimate when the problem will be fixed because the fault is heat related.
Updates from our Control Team: <# Newest updates at the top #>
> 11:50 - The signaller is manually signalling train services through the station. delays are likely.
Last Updated: 10/08/2022 11:57

Note the last two lines.

 

[JN114]

Thanks for interesting explanation @JN114

I know this is going off topic and if discussion continues we should start a new thread, but West Midlands Trains do manage to include freeform text in their Journeycheck. At the time of writing it says



Note the last two lines.

I've been ops/fleet for several years now so haven't used the systems - I'll clarify to it wasn't possible in my day!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What really happened was this:

The unit for 2G79 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W44380/2022-08-10/detailed) was trapped in Bristol overnight, so wasn't in place for the start of service. 2G79 is a bit of a critical train; as it's the start of the West / Thames Valley Turbo change over.

When 2G79 gets to Worcester, it forms 2E80 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W44223/2022-08-10/detailed), which then from Didcot is one of the 3, all-day Didcot/Oxford/Banbury Turbo shuttles.

Ordinarily, that isn't too much of an issue. If West don't have a unit for 2G79, then the swap around of units in the Worcester area doesn't happen; and 2E77 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W44220/2022-08-10/detailed) just comes back south as 2E80, and the cancellations are self-contained to West.

But today, due to the refresh programme that this thread is actually about, that wasn't possible - 165136 on 2E77 needed to carry on with its planned work so it ended up at St Phillps Marsh tonight so that it can get sorted out to go away for its refresh tomorrow.

Plan B would have been to take a spare unit up from Reading to Oxford to start 2E80 from Oxford or maybe Moreton-in-Marsh; however none was available.

So Plan C was to take the originally trapped unit from Bristol straight to Oxford - 5Z23 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:67086/2022-08-10/detailed) - but to do that needed an additional driver. There were none spare so on balance of cancellations it was decided it was better to cancel a round trip between Bristol and Westbury (2C06 with your 2E55 starting Bristol), than end up with 1/3rd of the Didcot/Oxford/Banbury service cancelled.

Unfortunately there is no elegant way of putting all that into Journey Check and all the other downstream systems/Apps. There isn't a free-form box to type out some wonderful narrative explanation, just a drop down of reasons for the delay/cancellation to choose from (listed here: https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php?title=Darwin:Cancellation_reason_codes_and_text)

So no Rolling Stock crisis; - just a few unforeseen issues culminating in a particular set of cancellations.

That, coupled with limitations in having to follow a pre-defined list of delay/cancellation reasons in Journey Check, Apps etc. is why it all seems a bit confusing; and why armchair analysis is never going to tell the full story.

This is a very detailed and fascinating explanation of how it works, thanks for this.

A “rolling stock crisis” because one service started a few stops after the origin? On almost all other FirstGroup TOCs the services hardly ever run (SWR is getting better though, while Avanti gets worse)

I see since I’ve returned to Cardiff, 166219 has moved back after it’s jaunt in the Thames Valley. Shame, as I enjoyed having it on trips to Reading Still hoping the refresh might be a little more extensive for the 166s than it is for the 165s.

 

[Snow1964]

Thanks for detailed explanation @JN114

That explains the automatic platform announcements announcing next direct trains to stations beyond Filton would be hour later.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 12/08 5Q81 0551 Wolverton - St Philips Marsh 165135
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K05037/2022-08-12/detailed

STP 12/08 5Q70 1141 St Philips Marsh - Wolverton 165136
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K05038/2022-08-12/detailed

 

[LUYMun]

I travelled on 165123 operating the Greenford branch this morning. It's a much-needed and long-overdue improvement. One particular note was the seats having new padding which are more comfortable than the FGW ones.