How cold should aircon be set on public transport?

[Shrewbly]

I did all the way from Bodmin Parkway to London on an 80x on one of those two "hottest ever" days, the aircon was absolutely lovely throughout.

That's good, but both my recent journeys on 800s have included failed air con. To the credit of GWR they brought round crates of bottled water on the second journey - but it had reached about 35 degrees in the carriage by then, and was so unpleasant that I, and all of my group, will most likely travel by car next time if the weather is hot.

 

[Parallel]

I used a GWR 165 recently and it was like walking into a fridge with the air cooling they now have installed (not that I am complaining). Getting off at Warminster felt like I had arrived somewhere like Mexico with the heat hitting when leaving the train!

 

[vicbury]

I can assure you that wasn't the case. It would have been AC blowing hot, rather than the heating. Pedantry, but the HVAC system on 166s mean that current, heating isn't running.

The floor level heaters were piping hot and emitting heat

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I bet you miss the 360s… Not!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2022 ==



Agreed (especially about the not stripping off ). It’s extraordinary that during a swelteringly hot and dry summer, including the hottest day ever recorded, people are complaining about air con being too cold!

Try a commute that involves switching at Paddington from the super-cool Elizabeth Line train to the Bakealive Line up to Willesden Junction!!

 

[tiptoptaff]

The floor level heaters were piping hot and emitting heat

If you insist.

 

[RPI]

Don't get me started on this. I have to argue with guards about it. They know best though, despite our traction knowledge being far superior to theirs.

I'm not alone then thankfully! I go closing them if the air con is functioning, so often when I board a train the guard goes and hides away anyway and I end up being the one to have to deal with all aspects of customer expectations so I take it upon myself (though some good guards will still regularly walk up and down doing passenger counts/being visible and just generally having my back to which I'm thankful, the joys of being an RPI that works solo most of the time!)

 

[westv]

I'm guessing that part of the problem is the way the air con units direct the cooler air. You would think they would direct it sideways but, in my experience, it's often directed directly towards the seats so passengers are in a constant flow of cold air. Fine if you are moving all the time but not so good if you are static for some time.
Moving isn't always an option if the train is busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing that part of the problem is the way the air con units direct the cooler air. You would think they would direct it sideways but, in my experience, it's often directed directly towards the seats so passengers are in a constant flow of cold air. Fine if you are moving all the time but not so good if you are static for some time.
Moving isn't always an option if the train is busy.

Moving air avoids stuffiness. The fix to this I suppose is to let passengers choose by having airline/road coach style adjustable vents, but these are rare in rail applications for some reason, I guess cost/vandalism.

 

[westv]

Moving air avoids stuffiness. The fix to this I suppose is to let passengers choose by having airline/road coach style adjustable vents, but these are rare in rail applications for some reason, I guess cost/vandalism.

Moving air is all well and good but not when it blows constantly on to you. The way to fix it is to not have the vents venting to passengers. A more sideways flow out would make more sense which would then create a cool downflow rather than an icy blast.

 

[mpthomson]

Could be a serious threat to health, you are on the platform and get used to the temperature there, on the train the air is much cooler or warmer. Very unpleasant I find.

I am sure opening windows would be much better than air-Con.

it isn't, not even remotely.

 

[frodshamfella]

I remember travelling 1st class from Paddington to Exeter last summer. After the huge disappointment on the catering provision on GWR, my main concern was the freezing temperature in the carriage . I asked for the heat to be increased, but I never noticed any improvement during the trip.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Moving air is all well and good but not when it blows constantly on to you.

Actually I prefer it to do so - when I get on an aircraft or coach I point the vent at me and open it. Thst's why individual vents are a good idea as I can choose to have it and you not.

it isn't, not even remotely.

@LSWR Cavalier's view seems to be rooted in the idea that you catch a cold (and other respiratory illnesses) by being cold. You don't, though being really cold for extended periods (e.g. camping in bad weather) can cause a bit of immune suppression. The reason respiratory illnesses like cold weather is the effect of cold weather on behaviour - people move indoors and shut windows and doors, which means the virions aren't blown away and hang around to infect people. Plus virions survive better in slightly cooler temperatures; high heat kills them off (hence why we get a fever when infected with a virus).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2022 ==

I remember travelling 1st class from Paddington to Exeter last summer. After the huge disappointment on the catering provision on GWR, my main concern was the freezing temperature in the carriage . I asked for the heat to be increased, but I never noticed any improvement during the trip.

I don't know about 80x but on most trains the crew have no control over it. Pendolinos are one specific exception where they do.

 

[DelayRepay]

Perhaps the day will come when air-con is no longer permitted to be set below 27C... or heating above 19C in the winter. As the Cortes Generales in Spain has just approved.

......both of which are outside what I consider to be comfortable temperature range.

I agree 27 is too hot, but 19 is the temperature I have set my thermostat to at home in the winter and I find it comfortable. I'd find it comfortable on a train too, where I'm likely to be wearing warm clothes and a coat. Perhaps I am unusual but I'd rather be cold than hot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree 27 is too hot, but 19 is the temperature I have set my thermostat to at home in the winter and I find it comfortable. I'd find it comfortable on a train too, where I'm likely to be wearing warm clothes and a coat. Perhaps I am unusual but I'd rather be cold than hot.

I think the issue is that people have different comfort levels, but someone who's too cold can put clothing on, while someone who's too hot can't remove it all without getting arrested.

Moving air does help. I managed to deal with the 42 degrees day by opening all windows so I could get a bit of a breeze. That's why fans work - moving air makes sweating work better to naturally cool the body. A curious example was when I went running while on holiday in China where it was very hot and extremely humid - I was fine as long as I was moving, but if I stopped my temperature started rising very quickly.

 

[XAM2175]

"Comfortable" is a matter of opinion. First thing I do when I get into a Premier Inn on a hot day is set the aircon to 19 degrees. You can put clothes on, I can't strip off.

(I'm not proposing setting train aircon to 19 degrees, but I would say 20-21 is about right).

I agree entirely.

Of course, in winter, heating should be set to account for the fact that passengers are all rugged up!

 

[Ashley Hill]

IIRC 158s are set to maintain 21 and IETs heat at 20 and start cooling at 23. I don’t know about turbo settings.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I agree entirely.

Of course, in winter, heating should be set to account for the fact that passengers are all rugged up!

I think hot trains in winter are perhaps even worse, is one expected to take off coat, jersey, hat, then put them on again after ten minutes journey?

Different temperatures in carriages have been mentioned, could the vehicles be color coded, red or blue?

Do first-class carriages get priority or special treatment?

 

[Matt_pool]

I went to catch the 19.55 Liverpool Lime Street to Man Oxford Road Northern service on the Wednesday of the "heatwave" the other week. The 19.25 had been cancelled meaning the 2 carriage 156 on the 19.55 was full with standing room only. It was still 30c + outside so you can imagine this rust bucket was even hotter inside, even with all the windows open.

The train left 10 minutes late, then we sat at a red signal in Edge Hill tunnels for another 5 minutes. Fortunately I was only going a couple of stops and by the time I got off the train I was dripping with sweat. It must have been hell for those people going all the way to Manchester, or even Widnes and Warrington!

A 195 would have been better, but there seems to be an issue with the air conditioning on some of those trains and it's hit and miss whether or not it's working properly.

 

[MikeWM]

I think the issue is that people have different comfort levels, but someone who's too cold can put clothing on, while someone who's too hot can't remove it all without getting arrested.

Which - speaking as someone who considerably prefers cold to heat - is precisely the correct answer

Moving air does help.

It certainly does. Compare walking around on a day like today with a decent breeze and compare with the same temperature but everything still. One is considerably more bearable!

I managed to deal with the 42 degrees day by opening all windows so I could get a bit of a breeze. That's why fans work - moving air makes sweating work better to naturally cool the body.

Indeed. I'm amazed at the number of people who don't get this, and somehow seem to think that fans actually reduce the temperature of the air. I don't know how they think that works!

There's a caveat that this only works when the air is a few degrees or more cooler than the human body. It's a bad idea to use a fan when the temperature is above 36C or so, then you're actually making your body do more work by blowing air at it that is hotter than its own temperature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a caveat that this only works when the air is a few degrees or more cooler than the human body.

Not actually true, because sweating - evaporative cooling - still works even if the outside temperature exceeds 36C, and that works better in moving than still air. Were this argument true then the whole principle of refrigeration wouldn't work!

The "shut your windows when it's hot" argument is purely applicable to (non-aircon) buildings where with the windows shut the temperature would be lower than with them open, which varies by building.

 

[MikeWM]

Not actually true, because sweating - evaporative cooling - still works even if the outside temperature exceeds 36C, and that works better in moving than still air. Were this argument true then the whole principle of refrigeration wouldn't work!

There appears to be some debate about it. Eg. this article from 3 years ago:

https://time.com/5644737/fans-can-make-you-hotter/

Fans are another useful way to cool off, but the World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warn that when temperatures hit the high 90s° Fahrenheit, fans don’t help in protecting people from heat-related illnesses. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency recommends that people not use fans when the heat index temperature—a combination of the temperature and humidity—climbs above 99°F.

...

The researchers found that under the hot and humid conditions, fans lowered the men’s core body temperature and reduced the heat-related strain on their heart, as well as improved their thermal comfort. Under the hot and dry conditions, however, the fans increased body temperature, the strain on the heart, and thermal discomfort. In other words, the fans worked better at higher heat index temperatures.

So quite possibly another case of 'the WHO and the CDC get it wrong', but we're in the wrong part of the forum to go any further with that idea :P

The "shut your windows when it's hot" argument is purely applicable to (non-aircon) buildings where with the windows shut the temperature would be lower than with them open, which varies by building.

Or if you're not in the building at the time, and the indoor air is cooler than the outdoor, it's also a pretty good plan

 

[Rescars]

If you insist.

Oh the price of progress! IIRC, back in the day the General Appendix used to specify the summer months when steam heating pipes had to be disconnected and in some cases removed altogether.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just stepped onto a 185 from Batley's (completely shade-free with a shelter that's currently a greenhouse) platform 2... the lovely cold air-con is bliss! I feel for those poor folk heading the other way on a 158 with emergency windows open on two out of three cars!

 

[387star]

Can't believe you're moaning about a cold train. Bliss! 377s tend to do well though not always

 

[387star]

Don't get me started on this. I have to argue with guards about it. They know best though, despite our traction knowledge being far superior to theirs.

Too true

 

[Stigy]

Could be a serious threat to health, you are on the platform and get used to the temperature there, on the train the air is much cooler or warmer. Very unpleasant I find.

I am sure opening windows would be much better than air-Con.

You simply cannot beat decent A/C on hot days. Windows are no comparison really. It’s the same when people say about fans. They just blow warm air about. Windows on trains are notoriously draughty and only small anyway, restricting the air when it does come in.

 

[Peter0124]

Id rather be cold on a train than on one in the 30 degree heat with no aircon/openable windows

 

[Stigy]

I can assure you that wasn't the case. It would have been AC blowing hot, rather than the heating. Pedantry, but the HVAC system on 166s mean that current, heating isn't running.

If it’s blowing warm air in all vehicles, it’s safer to turn it off completely to be honest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2022 ==

Don't get me started on this. I have to argue with guards about it. They know best though, despite our traction knowledge being far superior to theirs.

It’s not even anything to do with traction knowledge….it’s the same everywhere not just trains.

If the cab A/C isn’t working for me or isn’t suitably cold, I have the cab window open. It’s all well and good those stupid little penguins telling us to give it time to work, but if it hasn’t worked within 30 mins, it’s probably not going to suddenly start working. Some air blows on the cooler side of warm, but it’s not effective A/C really in that it’s not doing much conditioning.

 

[frodshamfella]

Actually I prefer it to do so - when I get on an aircraft or coach I point the vent at me and open it. Thst's why individual vents are a good idea as I can choose to have it and you not.



@LSWR Cavalier's view seems to be rooted in the idea that you catch a cold (and other respiratory illnesses) by being cold. You don't, though being really cold for extended periods (e.g. camping in bad weather) can cause a bit of immune suppression. The reason respiratory illnesses like cold weather is the effect of cold weather on behaviour - people move indoors and shut windows and doors, which means the virions aren't blown away and hang around to infect people. Plus virions survive better in slightly cooler temperatures; high heat kills them off (hence why we get a fever when infected with a virus).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2022 ==



I don't know about 80x but on most trains the crew have no control over it. Pendolinos are one specific exception where they do.

The chap I asked working on the train, said he would alter it, but it takes along time for you to actually notice any change. Well it was still freezing when I got off ..lol

 

[greyman42]

Someone who knows they find air conditioned trains a bit cold?

So you have to cart a jumper around all day instead of having the air con set at a decent temperature?