I primarily use the 8 car units, and yep, it’s primarily the toilets where the graffiti is bad, although some tagging is starting to appear elsewhere inside the coaches. Cleaning does seems to be being cut. The toilets could use with an anti graffiti wrap or mural - like on c2c or the SE 375s, or at least repainting more regularly.
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Are Class 700’s really that bad?
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bramling
Veteran Member
I blame the graffiti on some of the places they visit south or the river.
That's a diplomatic way of referring to Rainham without actually saying it!
I blame the graffiti on some of the places they visit south or the river.
That's a diplomatic way of referring to Rainham without actually saying it!
I presumed he meant Hayward’s Heath.
GTR does seem to try hard to keep units on specific routes, which does at least mean some get hit harder and others stay relatively clean. The trains to Sevenoaks get wrecked almost every day. It's not just graffiti; the glass for the egress handles get smashed, the first class antimacassars get taken off, there's graffiti (sometimes in lipstick) and etching, stuff poured on the floor, drink, food and even clothes strewn all over the place - and that can be on the morning services.
What's maybe a little more worrying is that some seats get carved up and parts of the seat back or base is cut out.. maybe for some TikTok trend or something. Thing is; that would suggest users are carrying knives with them.
They end up like a train that's been in service all day and ran the last train out of a city, full of drunks, yet can get like that after just one run in service!
Looking at the toilets, they're usually smeary and show that some attempt has been made to remove the paint - but whatever solution is being used can't clean it off sufficiently. You end up with a pink/purple smeary mess, and soon after more people add to it anyway. I have no idea how they can solve this problem as clearly not all routes are bad. The 717s into Moorgate have some tagging, but nothing like the same (obviously no toilets to mess up - and the egress panels have a solid cover).
Way back in 319 days the fleet was split into two distinct roles and branded as such: there was the 'Thameslink CityFlyer' brand which referred to the Bedford to Brighton express services and the 'Thameslink CityMetro' brand thatwas the Luton to Sutton Loop services. In general terms, the CityFlyer trains tended to be better respected then the CityMetro examples. I am inclined to think that the clientele was sufficiently different in each case that explains the condition of the respective sub-classes of the trains.
bramling
Veteran Member
Wherever it’s happening, it isn’t on the GN, as until Sevenoaks happened the GN 700/0 units were relatively captive (only changing over by means of a run as required changeover path), and were in a conspicuously better state.
So another disadvantage of Thameslink - GN users have to use trains trashed by users from elsewhere!
Mzzzs
Member
I live on the south of the ecml so i either travel on a class 700 or 717. Over the last few years I have seen that vandalism on units in north but is a lot more rare than south.
Gtr have tried to stop the vandalism but it’s a bigger problem than a railway problem it’s really more national problem of anti social behaviour which the police should take a hard line to.
Gtr have tried to stop the vandalism but it’s a bigger problem than a railway problem it’s really more national problem of anti social behaviour which the police should take a hard line to.
The Catford Loop line, Chatham mainline and the route from Swanley to Sevenoaks go through some pretty dicey areas and are also relatively quiet for much of the day, which is a big factor in anti social behaviour.
Bat and Ball in particular, despite its proximity to genteel Sevenoaks, has seen some truly terrible behaviour over the years, including a driver being assaulted so badly he had to give up work when he was knocked over the head after challenging some kids who were stuffing newspaper into the doors of a 319.
I would have thought Gillingham via the North Kent was worse overall, albeit busier. No coincidence that both of these routes use the RLUs, of course.
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It’s more useful for stuff like laptops, though to be fair I don’t think I’ve ever used a laptop on a train.
Must admit since we got wi-fi in my office at work, my laptop has spent rather more time there than hitherto!
Case in point, I’m currently on a FLU, my mobile automatically picked up the WiFi, which keeps failing to load pages. I’ve promptly switched it off to go back to 4G!
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Mikey C
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Really surprised that the issues on the Sevenoaks branch are on the leafy end of it (it passes through some lovely places likes Eynsford and Shoreham), as I'd have assumed the inner London section would be worse. I suppose it's the quietness at the Kent end which makes such behaviour easier.
It also shows that when people slagged off the Networkers for their internal condition, that they're operating over tough routes.
There certainly is a stark difference in cleanliness between the 700 and 717 - the latter still look pretty much new out of the box, inside and out.
Regarding the Sevenoaks TL route - I hear of horror stories already from GN drivers that have recently signed down there!
Regarding the Sevenoaks TL route - I hear of horror stories already from GN drivers that have recently signed down there!
dodecahedron67
Member
The St Mary Cray - Sevenoaks section is bad as it encompasses the catchment area for the schools that the less than nice members of west Kent tend to go to. Combine this with no ticket barriers and a very lax regime of ticket checks and you have your answer as to why the /0s are in such a state. The Catford loop line doesn’t help either, but at least the trains tend to be a bit busier by then
Hawkwood Junc
Member
Living near the location in my user name, Bickley or Chislehurst are easy for me to reach. On arrival at Sevenoaks a few months ago, I’d just missed the SE stopper to Chislehurst so jumped on the TL via Swanley to Bickley. Lots of unsavoury characters, a couple, seemingly marching up and down the train, into the toilets, out of the toilets. Odd atmosphere that doesn’t seem to exist as much on the mainline SE stopper. As said, the villages of Shoreham and Eynsford are lovely but Swanley, St Mary Cray and Bat and Ball aren’t the nicest places.
From Sevenoaks to Blackfriars the only station’s with a gateline are Sevenoaks, Bromley South and Blackfriars.
You wonder why the line is prone to trouble and the trains regularly vandalised?
Mzzzs
Member
Yes but most stations between Finsbury park and wgc have no gate line but hardly get vandalised this suggest its a deeper problem than a gateline.
Its the same for most stations on the fen line, no gateline but the only vandalism i have seen on them is gaffiti.
Most of the busier stations have a gateline though - eg Alexandra Palace, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Hadfield, Welwyn Garden City - so most journeys would see a gateline at least at one end.
Is that a vandal's version of a mistake)
It does have the benefit of saving your battery a bit vs cellular data use.
Funny that I should see this thread - just a couple of days ago I asked on a modelling forum about the 700s and got quite the response from several people...
As someone who doesn't commute but uses the 700s for connections to Peterborough and occasional trips to London I'm personally not that bothered about them. I like the modern look and spacious interior, the open connection between coaches - and I've never been crowded into a 700 the way I have on certain other units! Someone on the post I mentioned suggested it's probably partly down to nostalgia for the units that came before; I'm not old enough to remember those so I can't really give an opinion on that.
As a sidenote, isn't one of the first class areas permanently declassified on all 700s? I'm sure I've seen several notices by Thameslink to that effect.
As someone who doesn't commute but uses the 700s for connections to Peterborough and occasional trips to London I'm personally not that bothered about them. I like the modern look and spacious interior, the open connection between coaches - and I've never been crowded into a 700 the way I have on certain other units! Someone on the post I mentioned suggested it's probably partly down to nostalgia for the units that came before; I'm not old enough to remember those so I can't really give an opinion on that.
As a sidenote, isn't one of the first class areas permanently declassified on all 700s? I'm sure I've seen several notices by Thameslink to that effect.
bramling
Veteran Member
GN has been fortunate enough never to suffer too badly with vandalism, even before stations had gatelines. No doubt a factor in this is that the trains have always tended to be fairly busy even at off-peak times.
The 365s suffered very little vandalism throughout their life, despite never having on-train CCTV and being 100% DOO.
Fen Enthusiast
Member
As far as I'm concerned class 700 are great trains that are simply let down by bad seats and from a modern computer's point of view, a lack of basic conveniences. They're another fantastic Siemens product. Reliable, very good performance, very quiet and pretty smooth riding. Literally they're seats and lack of commuter conveniences is all that's really wrong with them as far as I'm concerned. I think if it wasn't for that, they'd be perfect trains.
penguin8967
Member
Yes, the rear 1st class section on every train is declassified and both ends are declassified on some services - see below.
London Trains
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This thread makes me wonder if a way of providing half decent seating while also having adequate standing room would have been to have 2+1 seating with armrests, tables, more padding, and adequate space between the walls and seats?
The configuration would basically be like a 377/6 or 7 with a row of seats missing.
The "ironing boards" are fine themselves, as seen on 377/6 or 7s, but the configuration on Thameslink trains makes them atrocious.
The configuration would basically be like a 377/6 or 7 with a row of seats missing.
The "ironing boards" are fine themselves, as seen on 377/6 or 7s, but the configuration on Thameslink trains makes them atrocious.
But the infrastructure to provide that is hardly justified by a bit more battery drain, especially when the fix for a phone that can't make it through the day is so cheap. A reasonable 5AH USB battery can cost less than £15.00.
bramling
Veteran Member
It doesn’t help that the 700s don’t have sockets either. This doesn’t really compare well considering we got on a local bus in Swansea last month and (as well as comfortable seats) there were USB points at every seat.
It wouldn't be the justification for it, of course.
Sometimes Wi-Fi for passengers is a bit of a brucie bonus as the reason to invest in the hardware and infrastructure is driven by something else, much like it can be in shops to give a connection to a payment terminal or point of sale. Merseyrail will have Wi-Fi available for a similar reason - each train has an uplink to the trackside fibre network for diagnostics, live CCTV, maintenance, passenger info, and so the provision of Wi-Fi for customers was seen as a sensible and affordable extra but certainly wasnt the driving reason (but it helped the business case as one of the many positive benefits).
Sadly the DfT couldn't see the benefit, and just saw a way to save a few quid (spoiler; when they get wired up during their refresh, it will have ended up costing more - but politicians don't care about long term views on anything).
Whether they get 3 pin plugs or just USB-A/USB-C ports by the time of the refresh remains to be seen, but it would seem more sensible to have a USB-PC USB-C port on the seat back, than fit mains wiring to every single seat/bay.
Whether they get 3 pin plugs or just USB-A/USB-C ports by the time of the refresh remains to be seen, but it would seem more sensible to have a USB-PC USB-C port on the seat back, than fit mains wiring to every single seat/bay.
SE%Traveller
Member
Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye both have gatelines and the former's are mostly in use now that they've opened the second entrance on the northern side.
Comfort of seats on the 700s was always a nice problem to have pre pandemic, the doors biting at your ankles as they gobbled you up was more of a concern, they really do curve inwards right at the base.
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