Penalty fare rules - part payment

[MikeWh]

I understand that you only have to pay the actual fare for your journey at the time of being issued a PF with the remainder to be remitted within 14 days or something. If the Southeastern penalty fare is £20 or twice the single fare to the next stop, meaning it is actually £20, and the fare for the journey is say £2, is it acceptable to pay £2 there and then and owe £18 for later, or would you then have to pay £20 later?

This isn't me by the way. A visitor to my site was told they could either pay £20 and be done with it, or pay the single fare and still owe £20. That doesn't seem right to me and I'm looking for clarification, especially from any SET staff.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

AFAIAA, they are required to pay atleast the full fare for the journey being made (or has been made) or they may be reported under the railway byelaws for travelling without a ticket or the means to pay for one.

The passenger(s) have the choice of either purchasing a ticket the journey or alighting at the next stop and pay for a new one there.

 

[MikeWh]

Cheers HHF, but what is still owed after they've paid the correct fare for the journey?

 

[Matt Taylor]

They cannot be charged the single fare and then still get a PF, the PF is not a fine. There is no requirement to make any payment but the money will still be owed until it is paid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Cheers HHF, but what is still owed after they've paid the correct fare for the journey?

Having checked the revenue protection section of the FRPP, the authorised collecter may require atleast the single fare at that time. The remainder of the PF would be owed if that was paid.

 

[island]

Right. They have to pay as a minimum the fare for the journey they were making or wanting to make, and that's deducted from the penalty amount to pay.

Guards/RPIs are supposed to use their discretion in the case of vulnerable passengers, giving them a zero fare excess/UPFN valid to their destination and requiring no payment on the spot, and avoid leaving a passenger with no money for an onward journey.
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And to revert to the original question:

.A visitor to my site was told they could either pay £20 and be done with it, or pay the single fare and still owe £20. That doesn't seem right to me and I'm looking for clarification, especially from any SET staff.

Indeed it is not right. The passenger can either pay the single fare (which we are saying is £2) now and £18 later, or £20 now.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for all the replies. I unexpectedly bumped into a friendly SET RPI at the excess window at London Bridge this afternoon and he's confirmed it all.

 

[RJ]

They cannot be charged the single fare and then still get a PF, the PF is not a fine. There is no requirement to make any payment but the money will still be owed until it is paid.

Depends on the situation. If you're on a train, the PF is twice the Anytime single between where you boarded and the next station stop. You then have a choice between buying an Anytime single from that stop to your destination or getting off the train and buying a ticket for the remainder of the journey.

If PF'd at a station, you don't actually have to pay anything on the spot, but genuine name/address need to be provided and PFN accepted.

 

[MikeWh]

Quick followup question - do RPIs get commission on penalty fares if the whole fare is paid at the time of issue?

 

[island]

Generally yes, 5%.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks. That may explain quite a bit.

 

[Flamingo]

Depends on the company. FGW do not pay commission on UPFN's as if it goes to court there is no "conflict of interest" argument to be offered in defence by the person refusing to pay.

 

[RPI]

Generally yes, 5%.

where did you get that info from? as far as I know there are no TOC's that give commission on PF's, FGW and FCC don't for sure, (i am an authorised collector for both), DfT just cap the amount at 5%, most guards get commission on ticket sales though.

 

[island]

Nothing more than an educated guess to be honest based on the fact that it was mentioned in the PF regs.

 

[Flamingo]

Nothing more than an educated guess to be honest based on the fact that it was mentioned in the PF regs.

Then why present it as a fact?

 

[yorkie]

I am not sure about the commission on PFs. I have heard RPIs for FCC do not get commission at all.

But I can't imagine MML guards being told to issue very expensive Penalty fares at twice the cost of a Leicester to London Anytime single and get no commission when in the past they'd charge the customer half the fare and the guard would keep 5%? If that really is the case then it wouldn't surprise me if the guards sold anytime singles and did not issue penalty fares at twice the price...

It may depend on the TOC... unless there is a rule that states that no commission at all can be given for a PF? If so, I am surprised the unions didn't moan when PFs were introduced on MML...

 

[island]

To be honest, I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that or why I didn't post in a way that better expressed my doubt (for example saying "my understanding is that it's 5%, but I may be wrong"). All I can do is apologise and hope you accept my apology. As one of the legion of expensive annual ticket holders I am firmly in the camp of revenue protection.

 

[Flamingo]

Apologies accepted - I've had to edit posts myself today
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The reason that was given to me by a manager (when I was querying how to claim the commission) was to keep it "clean" in court, so the allegation that the UPFN was issued just to make money for the guard could not be used as a reason not to pay.

I was gutted, as I was adding up in my head how many UPFN's I had issued since May, and what 5% of that was!

It could also be open to abuse by staff, as an unscrupulous guard could "issue" the odd 1st class Pad-Swa or Pad Penzance and then try to claim the 5% commission even though there is nobody on the other end of it.