Waterloo international and future Eurostar stations

[zwk500]

Since when did Eurostar services to Paris go through Lille? That is one heck of a diversion.

They always have, LGV Nord has run Paris-Lille-Calais since it opened. most Eurostars pass non-stop through a tunnel under Lille city centre, but you can see the platforms of Lille-Europe if you keep your eyes open.

But Lille is the point of most demand, as the French and nonFrench services combine.

Lille is not a massive point of demand, Brussels and Paris offer far better onward connectivity. This is evidenced by the current Eurostar plans where no Paris trains and some Brussels trains do not stop.

I’ve heard that is the case.

The US may have agreements to get an identified security threat off a plane between the UK and Canada, but I highly doubt they'd be able to deny boarding to somebody solely because they didn't have a Visa or Waiver for the US. I am happy to be corrected if they do have that right, though!

 

[Trainbike46]

Since when did Eurostar services to Paris go through Lille? That is one heck of a diversion.

Since forever, as that is how LGV nord runs. They don't usually stop, but they do run through

 

[AdamWW]

Since when did Eurostar services to Paris go through Lille? That is one heck of a diversion.

Since the tunnel opened?

 

[Wolfie]

Since the tunnel opened?

I'm confused. I have used Eurostar to go to both Brussels and Paris reasonably regularly and honestly can't remember going through Lille when l was heading for the latter. If it did l really wasn't paying sufficient attention lol.

Edited to add: Saw mention of a tunnel under Lille - that may explain it. You live and learn, ta zwk500.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm confused. I have used Eurostar to go to both Brussels and Paris reasonably regularly and honestly can't remember going through Lille when l was heading for the latter. If it did l really wasn't paying sufficient attention lol.

As pointed out above, if you go through without stopping (as the Paris trains do), blink and you'll miss it.

 

[tasky]

Since forever, as that is how LGV nord runs. They don't usually stop, but they do run through

A map of the LGVs (in red) for those unaware:

 

[Austriantrain]

Lille is not a massive point of demand, Brussels and Paris offer far better onward connectivity. This is evidenced by the current Eurostar plans where no Paris trains and some Brussels trains do not stop.

Lille would have much stronger demand if connections were encouraged, because you can reach most of France from there.

The fact that E* doesn’t really like connections and doesn’t offer attractive through fares together with the proliferation of Ouigo services without through ticketing and TGVs starting from Lille Flandres (the change of station will put off anyone with luggage) are the issue…

For all the reasons mentioned here, more through trains will not happen (except maybe another couple of seasonal trains to the south of France playing the Lille shuffle), so what would really be necessary would be to encourage connections in Lille and Brussels and to achieve that, running hourly services.

It’s probably one of the bigger mysteries why SNCF, which owns E* and runs the TGVs, does not make this happen. Well, after further reflection - knowing SNCF, not a mystery.

 

[AdamWW]

Lille would have much stronger demand if connections were encouraged, because you can reach most of France from there.

The fact that E* doesn’t really like connections and doesn’t offer attractive through fares together with the proliferation of Ouigo services without through ticketing and TGVs starting from Lille Flandres (the change of station will put off anyone with luggage) are the issue…

For all the reasons mentioned here, more through trains will not happen (except maybe another couple of seasonal trains to the south of France playing the Lille shuffle), so what would really be necessary would be to encourage connections in Lille and Brussels and to achieve that, running hourly services.

It’s probably one of the bigger mysteries why SNCF, which owns E* and runs the TGVs, does not make this happen. Well, after further reflection - knowing SNCF, not a mystery.

I suppose offering connections means taking responsibility if people miss them and dealing with the consequences.

If you're happily filling trains with those only travelling between Eurostar destinations or taking their own responsibility for connections, maybe there's not much incentive to do otherwise?

 

[Austriantrain]

I suppose offering connections means taking responsibility if people miss them and dealing with the consequences.

If you're happily filling trains with those only travelling between Eurostar destinations or taking their own responsibility for connections, maybe there's not much incentive to do otherwise?

Yeah, that’s the problem with monopolies. And basically SNCFs way of doing things everywhere.

 

[Cloud Strife]

You may well be right, but National Security trumps all of those.

National security is such an overused term. The truth is that onboard controls simply cannot work without a comprehensive UK-Schengen agreement on readmitting anyone that is denied entry into the UK, and there's nothing more to it. The French, for various domestic political reasons, regard this as unacceptable, hence the juxtaposed controls were developed as an alternative. This is why the UK wants to extend the juxtaposed controls to the Western Channel ports, as there's some evidence that those routes are starting to come under pressure.

What's needed is a more flexible approach towards Eurostar and border control in general. If a UK-Schengen agreement can be made on allowing for the mandatory use of ID cards/passports on intra-Schengen journeys (and there is already precedent for this), then there's absolutely no reason why Eurostar cannot extend further if commercially viable.

Some of your statements/assumptions in your last para are utter poppycock. I suggest that you look at some of the reports published by the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration.

Given that you didn't even appear to know about the routing of LGV Nord, it might be best to refrain from making comments about others.

The truth is that the UK approach to border control is moving rapidly towards a system where a trained monkey will compare faces. It's perfectly possible that by 2030 or so, the UK will already develop a comprehensive system of pre-clearance, which will mean that the decisions are taken in principle when the person buys their travel ticket and not at the physical border. The whole idea that decisions should be made at a desk in queue is completely out of date, especially with increased levels of data sharing.

 

[Royston Vasey]

There will be one control in the journey. I just propose moving the control from the start of the journey to the middle of the journey, just before the tunnel, in order to minimise border staff requirement and allow trains to carry local passengers throughout the journey.

Isn’t that what Southeastern High Speed is for?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Maybe even whilst the train was standing at Bad Schandau station? But even if not, they were dealing with a completely different set of circumstances. Catching out a few tourists is considerably different to dealing with quantities of economic migrants.

It should be pointed out that both the Polish and Czech borders dealt with 'quantities of economic migrants' throughout the 1990s. All that was needed to deal with it effectively was a comprehensive agreement to readmit anyone that had illegally entered from their territories.

We've gone exactly two posts so far and you're already telling me that the evidence for your argument is a state secret

There are no loopholes. What he's doing is using the "I know something you don't know and therefore I'm right", but actually, it's not a state secret to divulge that the contrasting approaches to security on the shuttle trains vs Eurostar is nothing but security theatre.

What is a genuine problem and concern is that there's no comprehensive agreement for the return of anyone denied entry into the UK for whatever reason. If such an agreement existed, then yes, trains could run non-stop from Paris or Brussels (Lille might be too close to London for comfort) with border control carried out onboard. The arguments such as 'data connection' simply don't exist, as there are various technological solutions that can compensate for a brief broken connection.

But France in particular will not (and will probably never) agree to a comprehensive return agreement, hence the juxtaposed controls are here to stay. From Eurostar's perspective, the juxtaposed controls are preferable, because the trains run to time. Any sort of alternative, such as rebuilding Calais-Frethun so that trains can be parked while controls are carried out, simply won't work with the realities of running a railway.

As for 'non-citizens carrying out border checks', it should be pointed out that this is exactly what happens in Schengen on a daily basis...

 

[zwk500]

What he's doing is using the "I know something you don't know and therefore I'm right", but actually, it's not a state secret to divulge that the contrasting approaches to security on the shuttle trains vs Eurostar is nothing but security theatre.

What he's doing is the 'I know something that my job prohibits me to discuss publicly' approach.

The arguments such as 'data connection' simply don't exist, as there are various technological solutions that can compensate for a brief broken connection.

Have you tried to use the Internet on Eurostar? It's hardly reliable, and the passport connection will need to be a MFA link to the home office system, so a broken connection will likely require reauthentication. Also, all the checks need to be done before the tunnel because theres no internet connection inside. That's 1hr journey time from Brussels to check 800 people.

As for 'non-citizens carrying out border checks', it should be pointed out that this is exactly what happens in Schengen on a daily basis...

Schengen citizens carryout border checks to enter the schengen zone, not the same thing. And the UK govt has shown it sometimes prefers theatrics and symbolism over pragmatism on the subject of immigration for domestic political purposes.

 

[Cloud Strife]

What he's doing is the 'I know something that my job prohibits me to discuss publicly' approach.

Heard it a million times. It's tiresome, especially when the issues are documented publicly. Hansard contains a lot of interesting detail on the topic, for instance. Try the Channel Tunnel Security Regime debate in the Lords (2014) for instance, where the size of the bomb needed to breach the tunnel (to the sea) is openly discussed.

It's hardly reliable, and the passport connection will need to be a MFA link to the home office system, so a broken connection will likely require reauthentication. Also, all the checks need to be done before the tunnel because theres no internet connection inside. That's 1hr journey time from Brussels to check 800 people.

This is why you need a technological solution. The UK is heading in the right direction, and I think it's reasonable to expect Eurostar to do proper checks on check-in to ensure that Mr. A. Terrorist is the same bloke as on his identity document. With that, you already have all the data locally and you don't need a permanent connection, because each device already contains everything known on the passengers that have checked in.

Doable, but honestly, the onboard checks are much more cumbersome and annoying than the juxtaposed controls. It's also much more convenient to interview people in civilised conditions rather than in the cramped conditions onboard, so I think the juxtaposed controls are better for everyone.

I can give an example: the overnight sleeper train from Wrocław to Lviv. It would be logical to have juxtaposed controls for the departure from Lviv, as it would allow people to sleep and it would remove the lengthy stops at the border. Instead, you get disturbed about 1am for the Ukrainian controls, then it takes until about 2am (Polish time) for the Polish controls to be completed. It means that you don't get to go to bed until 3am or so, which is useless.

It's the same problem in the direction of Lviv, where controls are carried out about 3am Polish time. Juxtaposed controls carried out in Lviv would allow for people to sleep straight through for the 6am arrival, which is far more civilised. As it stands, in summer, you can't really get to sleep until 9-10pm due to the light outside, and then you're woken up at 1-2am for the Polish border control.

The juxtaposed controls are really a genuine success story on the part of the UK and France/Belgium/Netherlands, and I see no reason to bring back onboard checks.

And the UK govt has shown it sometimes prefers theatrics and symbolism over pragmatism on the subject of immigration for domestic political purposes.

Indeed. Let's not forget this: theatrics and symbolism are much more important in politics than substance.

 

[AdamWW]

Have you tried to use the Internet on Eurostar? It's hardly reliable, and the passport connection will need to be a MFA link to the home office system, so a broken connection will likely require reauthentication. Also, all the checks need to be done before the tunnel because theres no internet connection inside. That's 1hr journey time from Brussels to check 800 people.

I thought there was mobile phone coverage in the tunnel these days.

Anyway if a lack of data connections on the train were the only obstacle I'm sure they could be solved if the will was there.
But they clearly aren't the only reason.

 

[Austriantrain]

I thought there was mobile phone coverage in the tunnel these days.

Anyway if a lack of data connections on the train were the only obstacle I'm sure they could be solved if the will was there.
But they clearly aren't the only reason.

Let’s face it: Brexit had more to do with fear of immigration than anything else. No UK government in the foreseeable future will have any reason to ease immigration rules; it is a guaranteed vote loser.

So the focus should be on improved connections in Lille and Brussels; with that, large parts of Western Europe can be reached from London with a single change or two. It will never attract the masses but could be a useful offer for some.

 

[Wolfie]

National security is such an overused term. The truth is that onboard controls simply cannot work without a comprehensive UK-Schengen agreement on readmitting anyone that is denied entry into the UK, and there's nothing more to it. The French, for various domestic political reasons, regard this as unacceptable, hence the juxtaposed controls were developed as an alternative. This is why the UK wants to extend the juxtaposed controls to the Western Channel ports, as there's some evidence that those routes are starting to come under pressure.

What's needed is a more flexible approach towards Eurostar and border control in general. If a UK-Schengen agreement can be made on allowing for the mandatory use of ID cards/passports on intra-Schengen journeys (and there is already precedent for this), then there's absolutely no reason why Eurostar cannot extend further if commercially viable.



Given that you didn't even appear to know about the routing of LGV Nord, it might be best to refrain from making comments about others.

The truth is that the UK approach to border control is moving rapidly towards a system where a trained monkey will compare faces. It's perfectly possible that by 2030 or so, the UK will already develop a comprehensive system of pre-clearance, which will mean that the decisions are taken in principle when the person buys their travel ticket and not at the physical border. The whole idea that decisions should be made at a desk in queue is completely out of date, especially with increased levels of data sharing.

I may not know about train routings. I know a whole lot about the border and certainly don't need to prove my bona fides to some random on the internet. I suggest that you look at FBIS. The intent is that the UK will have a system equivalent to the US ESTA. That will not be linked to ticket purchase.

There is zero chance of an agreement to use passports or ID cards routinely on intra-Schengen journeys - the EU Commission (who l used to work with closely) have made it clear that would be contrary to freedom of movement which is one of the prime pillars of the EU. When the UK left the EU it also left the Dublin Agreement which allowed return of asylum seekers. A number of EU countries have blocked every attempt by UK to put a replacement in place - they don't believe in "cakeism".

You may also wish to think about the possible consequences if some of the more hawkish UK politicians have their way with talk of "punishing France" for "illegal immigration". Juxtaposed controls are the result of bilateral agreement. Either side can unilaterally withdraw from such an agreement.

You focus solely on entry to UK too. You may wish to think about why HMG might wish to stop some individuals leaving.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

Let’s face it: Brexit had more to do with fear of immigration than anything else. No UK government in the foreseeable future will have any reason to ease immigration rules; it is a guaranteed vote loser.

So the focus should be on improved connections in Lille and Brussels; with that, large parts of Western Europe can be reached from London with a single change or two. It will never attract the masses but could be a useful offer for some.

Your first para is sadly spot on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

A map of the LGVs (in red) for those unaware:

View attachment 118575

TY

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

What he's doing is the 'I know something that my job prohibits me to discuss publicly' approach.

Have you tried to use the Internet on Eurostar? It's hardly reliable, and the passport connection will need to be a MFA link to the home office system, so a broken connection will likely require reauthentication. Also, all the checks need to be done before the tunnel because theres no internet connection inside. That's 1hr journey time from Brussels to check 800 people.

Schengen citizens carryout border checks to enter the schengen zone, not the same thing. And the UK govt has shown it sometimes prefers theatrics and symbolism over pragmatism on the subject of immigration for domestic political purposes.

Again TY.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I may not know about train routings. I know a whole lot about the border and certainly don't need to prove my bona fides to some random on the internet. I suggest that you look at FBIS. The intent is that the UK will have a system equivalent to the US ESTA. That will not be linked to ticket purchase.

At the minute. Our data science capabilities are expanding more and more by the day, and an integrated system that is linked to ticket purchasing makes a lot of sense. I'm sure you agree that it wouldn't be a problem for the UK Government to receive notification as soon as a ticket was purchased, right?

There is zero chance of an agreement to use passports or ID cards routinely on intra-Schengen journeys - the EU Commission (who l used to work with closely) have made it clear that would be contrary to freedom of movement which is one of the prime pillars of the EU.

Except it already took place on Berlin-Athens-Singapore flights, and there are some situations where intra-Schengen journey require an additional check due to local specific conditions, such as on Ceuta and Melilla to mainland Spain journeys due to the special visa-free regime in the Autonomous Cities. Both cities are fully part of the Schengen acquis, but with a special derogation that allows for checks on departure from Ceuta and Melilla to elsewhere in Schengen.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000911-ASW_EN.html for more information.

It's important to note that the EU is not inflexible as a whole towards specific solutions to problems. We can see this with the Aland Islands, where a very interesting taxation regime was developed in order to preserve duty free sales on Sweden-Finland/Estonia routes. Or even with Mount Athos, where women are prohibited from entering!

The question is whether the EU would accept something like Eurostar having intra-Schengen controls. My gut feeling is no, because Aland, the Spanish Autonomous Cities and Mount Athos are edge cases, whereas Eurostar carries a tremendous amount of people daily. But still, we simply don't know what the answer would be, because it hasn't been seriously discussed.

When the UK left the EU it also left the Dublin Agreement which allowed return of asylum seekers. A number of EU countries have blocked every attempt by UK to put a replacement in place - they don't believe in "cakeism".

Which remains a key problem. I am a strong believer that the UK and EU can find common ground *if* the political will is there, but neither side seems particularly willing to work together on some issues.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suppose offering connections means taking responsibility if people miss them and dealing with the consequences.

Eurostar already allows people who miss their train due to delays on their incoming train, whether on a through ticket or not, and regardless of whether it is a DB, SNCF or NMBS train, to travel on the next service with minimal fuss.

If you're happily filling trains with those only travelling between Eurostar destinations or taking their own responsibility for connections, maybe there's not much incentive to do otherwise?

I believe they want to run more trains in the long term, and connections are achance for growth if they start offering through trains, so I really hope they get on that. It will require cooperation with DB, OEBB and other SNCF companies though

I thought there was mobile phone coverage in the tunnel these days.

There is. In the tunnel is actually the bit with the most reliable signal (at least on the Brussels route!)

Let’s face it: Brexit had more to do with fear of immigration than anything else. No UK government in the foreseeable future will have any reason to ease immigration rules; it is a guaranteed vote loser.

Unfortunately I think you might be right

So the focus should be on improved connections in Lille and Brussels; with that, large parts of Western Europe can be reached from London with a single change or two. It will never attract the masses but could be a useful offer for some.

Agreed! In addition, while unlikely to fill a eurostar train completely it could help in justifying a more frequent service, which would benefit everyone

 

[tasky]

There is. In the tunnel is actually the bit with the most reliable signal (at least on the Brussels route!)

Using Vodafone I've actually usually got a pretty consistent 4G signal from Brussels all the way to Dover – good enough that I've been able to participate in a Zoom call from the train with no connection issues. The signal on the UK side is unfortunately totally non-existent, though, especially in the Down direction (that last bit may be my imagination, but it seems to be true from my near-weekly observations).

 

[RT4038]

National security is such an overused term. The truth is that onboard controls simply cannot work without a comprehensive UK-Schengen agreement on readmitting anyone that is denied entry into the UK, and there's nothing more to it. The French, for various domestic political reasons, regard this as unacceptable, hence the juxtaposed controls were developed as an alternative. This is why the UK wants to extend the juxtaposed controls to the Western Channel ports, as there's some evidence that those routes are starting to come under pressure.

As you point out, this 'readmitting' agreement is unlikely to happen (mainly because the French don't want these people in their country any more than the UK does), so there seems little point in discussing what might happen if it were. All of my comments were based on the assumption that no seismic political changes were to take place.

But France in particular will not (and will probably never) agree to a comprehensive return agreement, hence the juxtaposed controls are here to stay. From Eurostar's perspective, the juxtaposed controls are preferable, because the trains run to time. Any sort of alternative, such as rebuilding Calais-Frethun so that trains can be parked while controls are carried out, simply won't work with the realities of running a railway.

Quite. So I am unsure what all the heated arguments against the current system has been in aid of?

As for 'non-citizens carrying out border checks', it should be pointed out that this is exactly what happens in Schengen on a daily basis...

That is not correct. Non-Schengen zone citizens are not carrying out border checks to admit people into the Schengen zone, on a daily or any other basis.

This is why you need a technological solution. The UK is heading in the right direction, and I think it's reasonable to expect Eurostar to do proper checks on check-in to ensure that Mr. A. Terrorist is the same bloke as on his identity document. With that, you already have all the data locally and you don't need a permanent connection, because each device already contains everything known on the passengers that have checked in.

There are two sides to this:
(1) The checking of documents to ensure that the people are who they say they are, and that they have due authorisation. This may be reliably done by technology in the future, but still requires trusted staff to ensure that there is no circumvention of the system.
(2) That the boarding arrangements are secure enough to ensure that no unauthorised person boards a train, either by circumvention of the system or illicit access.

But this is what is being done now.

This will still require terminals, secure platforms etc, This is not economically going to be facilitated on long distance trains stopping intermediately inside Schengen..

The juxtaposed controls are really a genuine success story on the part of the UK and France/Belgium/Netherlands, and I see no reason to bring back onboard checks.

Exactly. In the circumstances.

Indeed. Let's not forget this: theatrics and symbolism are much more important in politics than substance.

As it has always been. Nothing new.

Let’s face it: Brexit had more to do with fear of immigration than anything else. No UK government in the foreseeable future will have any reason to ease immigration rules; it is a guaranteed vote loser.

So the focus should be on improved connections in Lille and Brussels; with that, large parts of Western Europe can be reached from London with a single change or two. It will never attract the masses but could be a useful offer for some.

Quite.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

.

It's important to note that the EU is not inflexible as a whole towards specific solutions to problems. We can see this with the Aland Islands, where a very interesting taxation regime was developed in order to preserve duty free sales on Sweden-Finland/Estonia routes. Or even with Mount Athos, where women are prohibited from entering!

The question is whether the EU would accept something like Eurostar having intra-Schengen controls. My gut feeling is no, because Aland, the Spanish Autonomous Cities and Mount Athos are edge cases, whereas Eurostar carries a tremendous amount of people daily. But still, we simply don't know what the answer would be, because it hasn't been seriously discussed.

I am pretty sure they wouldn't! They are tiny volume edge cases (bit like the Finland-Russia trains really!). Note that we are not in the EU, so the possibility is even less, although the UK probably will get one eventually to cover the NI trade situation - but that is an edge case too.

 

[XAM2175]

Except it already took place on Berlin-Athens-Singapore flights ...

In that specific example though, the passengers were passing Schengen exit controls in Berlin and then passing Schengen entry checks in Athens without entering Singapore. Had it worked in the way you propose for Eurostar, the passengers would have also had to pass Singapore's entry checks in Berlin and be lawfully admitted to Singapore.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Was the Nightstar not planned to have a portable border post that can be deployed on the platform/dedicated coach when it arrived at a station? Could that not work?

 

[zwk500]

Was the Nightstar not planned to have a portable border post that can be deployed on the platform/dedicated coach when it arrived at a station? Could that not work?

You could indeed do this (Brussels does, with the Amsterdam train using platforms also used by internal Schengen Zone trains as the Eurostar-dedicated platforms are bays), but you'd need:
1. Enough space to hold queuing passengers
2. A security team to verify that the secure zone doesn't have anybody hiding in it.
3. All the portable equipment to scan bags and passports, with appropriate stable data connections for the various databases that they check against.
4. Enough room in the timetable to make sure nothing else needs to platform whilst 2 & 3 are being setup, and that the service can still operate if there were delays/problems on the network.
and most importantly: 5. A way to pay for all of the above.

For reference, the security sweeps and controls usually require at least 1hr prior to the subject train at a station to complete. If boarding takes 15-20 minutes, you'd be losing that platform for 90 minutes or more. Crewe Platform 12 is possible, Maybe Platform 7 at Preston could be brought back into use, but few other stations in the UK have that kind of room. It was also a big part of why the proposed Cologne services couldn't be made to work.

 

[StephenHunter]

You would have fewer passengers on a sleeper, mind.

 

[Sputnik89]

The idea that the EU would undermine one of the single biggest quality of life successes it has achieved (completely frictionless travel intra-Schengen for 99.9% of journeys) by requiring everyday ID checks for an Intra-Schengen train service purely for the benefit of a third country (non-Schengen AND non-EU) is fantasy on a Disney scale I am afraid.

 

[Wolfie]

The idea that the EU would undermine one of the single biggest quality of life successes it has achieved (completely frictionless travel intra-Schengen for 99.9% of journeys) by requiring everyday ID checks for an Intra-Schengen train service purely for the benefit of a third country (non-Schengen AND non-EU) is fantasy on a Disney scale I am afraid.

Absolutely. Particularly given that said third country is busy at least threatening to break shedloads of other agreements with the EU to the extent that the latter has commenced legal action.

 

[Austriantrain]

The idea that the EU would undermine one of the single biggest quality of life successes it has achieved (completely frictionless travel intra-Schengen for 99.9% of journeys) by requiring everyday ID checks for an Intra-Schengen train service purely for the benefit of a third country (non-Schengen AND non-EU) is fantasy on a Disney scale I am afraid.

True. Schengen has in particular enabled a massive integration of border areas with everyday commuting across borders on a very large scale. How important that is now on an economic scale has been seen in March 2020 when those borders where abruptly closed, incurring huge problems. They were quickly reopened for commuters.

However, due to a certain, quite large and deep body of water around the UK, it would never have achieved those advantages even if it had joined Schengen.

 

[miklcct]

However, due to a certain, quite large and deep body of water around the UK, it would never have achieved those advantages even if it had joined Schengen.

Before the Cross Harbour Tunnel in Hong Kong opened, people commuted across the harbour on ferries on regular basis, and now the 3 tunnels in Hong Kong are congested. Why won't the same cross-channel commuting (to the extent that a Eurotunnel passenger shuttle runs every 5 minutes fully loaded) happen if the border is removed?

 

[miklcct]

Also, before the pandemic, ferries between Hong Kong and Macau, with the channel width similar to England and France, ran every 15 minutes as well even with the existence of a border (but crossing it was very easy).