Abbey line departure boards and signalling diagram

[AM9]

What will reducing the frequency of the service achieve?

I am an infrequent user, but the train is very rarely if ever late in my experience. If there is an issue the whole service seems to get binned.

Reducing the frequency will just reduce even further the usage for what gain?

If as @Bald Rick suggests, if alternate services skipped Park Street and How Wood, the line could gain patronage by being a 2tph service which is the same as the bus trunk route between St Albans and Watford Junction. Of course there might be a few in How Wood and Par Street that give up because the normal interval is extended from 40 to 60 minutes, but given that the total of the two stops equates to just over 100 passengers per working day, the increased footfall at three of the other stops, currently (2018/9) exceeds 1.3m, would easily result in a boost to the line as well as reducing road traffic in the area.

 

[Bald Rick]

If as @Bald Rick suggests, if alternate services skipped Park Street and How Wood, the line could gain patronage by being a 2tph service which is the same as the bus trunk route between St Albans and Watford Junction. Of course there might be a few in How Wood and Par Street that give up because the normal interval is extended from 40 to 60 minutes, but given that the total of the two stops equates to just over 100 passengers per working day, the increased footfall at three of the other stops, currently (2018/9) exceeds 1.3m, would easily result in a boost to the line as well as reducing road traffic in the area.

it needs skipping stops, DCO, a TSR removed (not easy, but an order of magnitude easier than building a loop) and 3 minute turn rounds (Done elsewhere, but I suspect many will say it can’t be done here).

And also an acceptance that late running requires cancelling a circuit to recover.

Park St and How Wood are also an easy 15 minute walk from each other, with much of the population of the two settlements between the two. Nobody travels between the two. As long as the skips alternate, then it’s reasonable to assume that patronage wouldn’t drop, as effectively the local area still gets a half hourly service, albeit from different stations.

 

[Energy]

By far the easiest way to save a couple of minutes (dons tin hat) is to make the service DCO. That would also free up the conductor to actually check tickets / take fares which in my experience they are reluctant to do (I’ve not had my ticket checked on the line for months).

DCO (or at least Driver Open Guard Close) would be good for all of LNWR. With the guard having to frequently go to the back cab to open and close the doors its pretty common that your ticket will not ever be checked if you in the coaches at the front.

 

[Bald Rick]

DCO (or at least Driver Open Guard Close) would be good for all of LNWR. With the guard having to frequently go to the back cab to open and close the doors its pretty common that your ticket will not ever be checked if you in the coaches at the front.

It needs to be DCO to make the time saving. Every second counts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What will reducing the frequency of the service achieve?

I am an infrequent user, but the train is very rarely if ever late in my experience. If there is an issue the whole service seems to get binned.

Reducing the frequency will just reduce even further the usage for what gain?

A memorable "N minutes past each hour" is better than different times each hour in my book, connections or no.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2022 ==

DCO (or at least Driver Open Guard Close) would be good for all of LNWR. With the guard having to frequently go to the back cab to open and close the doors its pretty common that your ticket will not ever be checked if you in the coaches at the front.

The Marston Vale too.

 

[RailEnable]

We are discussing a number of issues here.

England's Economic Heartland is a sub-national transport body having responsibility for the Oxford to Cambridge arc. They commissioned Network Rail to undertake studies. In proposing a St Albans to Hatfield rail corridor, I am responding to those studies. Full details are on the RailEnable.com website. Obviously proposing any new railway line is a major decision, not least since they are expensive. Nevertheless, with a good business case for a St Albans to Hatfield line, could I suggest this provides a context for discussions concerning the Abbey line.
The Hertsrail project has a focus on Hertfordshire and is intended to be accessible. Whether or not I have succeesed in that respect is for others to assess.
In writing this, I am not trying to blow my own trumpet, rather I am attempting to focus on improved transport connections in the Oxford - Cambridge arc.

When considered in the context of the Oxford to Cambridge arc, Hertfordshire Essex Rapid Transit (HERT) is a poor-quality proposal, since the focus on Hertfordshire is at the expense of travel overall in that arc. In contrast, Hertsrail has a focus on Hertfordshire but is not at all at the expense of transport provision supporting economic development across the Oxford to Cambridge arc.
There are other reasons why HERT is a poor-quality proposal. For example the A414 North Orbital Road is predicted to become congested, but buses turning off the Abbey line converted into a busway connect onto the A414. The suggestion that people would switch from car travel to bus travel, thereby reducing congestion on the A414, is highly questionable, whereas switching from car travel to train travel is more plausible. Moreover a St Albans to Hatfield railway does not add traffic to the A414.
So, to conclude this first point, I would be most grateful if readers would be able to consider the merits of Hertsrail as the conventional rail alternative to HERT.

Secondly, can the Abbey line stay as it is with a service every 45 minutes ? The council has made it very clear that this is an under-utilised corridor and no longer wants to live with it, for example in the A414 Corridor Strategy Technical Report. [ Details : Referenced papers and reports via Sitemap at RailEnable.com ] In passing, I hope folks will be able to acknowledge that I have worked assiduously on these matters. Alternative method of reasoning : if the council/Dft accepted the status quo i.e. a service every 45 minutes, the HERT proposal would not exist.

Thirdly, there is indeed a proposal to reduce service frequency on the line to every 60 minutes as from December. It seems to me that it should be opposed. For those who wish to oppose it, is the Hertsrail mailing list provided by myself a means by which we can gather together ? What assurances do I need to give so that the Hertsrail mailing list can provide such a service ? Details of the proposal : search for Abbey at https://www.dec22timetablechange.co...inline-timetable-Changes-by-Route-06-2227.pdf
Stakeholder conference https://www.dec22timetablechange.co.uk/

Fourthly, concerning the Cottonmill Lane crossing, is a bridge the best option ?

I appreciate the points raised and haven't responded to all of them, but then it isn't my job to do so. It is great when people work together for the sake of the Abbey line.

 

[The Planner]

Nope, still don't get what it is you are trying to do.

 

[RailEnable]

Nope, still don't get what it is you are trying to do.

It takes a team to secure the future of a railway line...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It takes a team to secure the future of a railway line...

It's not been proposed for closure, has it?

I think to be honest a robust hourly clockface service using decent EMUs (350s) is bang-on for it (the 45 minute service isn't a benefit over hourly, because it's harder to remember the times and it isn't *much* more frequent). If there isn't already one a local user group fancying up the stations with flowers and the likes is probably worth having, but I don't think it's ever likely to justify much more.

 

[zwk500]

It takes a team to secure the future of a railway line...

What is it being secured against?

It's not been proposed for closure, has it?

I think to be honest a robust hourly clockface service using decent EMUs (350s) is bang-on for it (the 45 minute service isn't a benefit over hourly, because it's harder to remember the times and it isn't *much* more frequent). If there isn't already one a local user group fancying up the stations with flowers and the likes is probably worth having, but I don't think it's ever likely to justify much more.

@Bald Rick has already mentioned that the majority of traffic on the line is local, and therefore having trains a bit more regularly allows a small amount of extra revenue, in exchange for the marginal costs of running the train (it being an Electric line and the Unit and Crew would be being paid anyway).

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bald Rick has already mentioned that the majority of traffic on the line is local, and therefore having trains a bit more regularly allows a small amount of extra revenue, in exchange for the marginal costs of running the train (it being an Electric line and the Unit and Crew would be being paid anyway).

Does it, though? Does a memorable timetable not potentially attract more passengers? Or is it mostly a young demographic using it who'd just look the times up on their phone?

 

[zwk500]

Does it, though? Does a memorable timetable not potentially attract more passengers? Or is it mostly a young demographic using it who'd just look the times up on their phone?

I don't know, because I'm not a local. But @Bald Rick does have a fairly good standing on this forum, and as it's his local line I'm inclined to take his word for it that 40 minute intervals get more revenue than 1hr intervals. Tbh nowadays nearly everybody looks up the train times on their phone (or other device) before setting off, not just younger demographics.

 

[skyhigh]

It takes a team to secure the future of a railway line...

So what's ABFLY doing then?

 

[The Planner]

It takes a team to secure the future of a railway line...

Who has said its closing, NR certainly havent.

 

[RailEnable]

Nope, still don't get what it is you are trying to do.

I may be missing the point. If not, is there someone with customer service skills who can assist The Planner ?

HERT is a proposal to close the line and convert it into a busway. For anyone interested, here was the RailEnable (RailAble) response to the public engagement (consultation) https://railenable.com/pdf/RailEnable_HERT_Jan_2022.pdf

There is a message "Messages have been posted since you loaded this page". Is there a way to store up a reply and read the latest messages that have been posted before replying?

The current service is every 45 minutes (5 minutes to change ends at St Albans Abbey, 8 minutes at Watford Junction).

 

[Bald Rick]

HERT is a proposal to close the line and convert it into a busway.

Is it though? None of the HERT publications show that.

My reading of HERT is an express bus service with new dedicated rights of way in some places - I could see why the abbey line could be considered for it, but also it’s not wide enough for two buses…

Thirdly, there is indeed a proposal to reduce service frequency on the line to every 60 minutes as from December.
It seems to me that it should be opposed.

it’s not a proposal. It’s confirmed and happening - the timetable is written. You may as well oppose the tide.

Does a memorable timetable not potentially attract more passengers? Or is it mostly a young demographic using it who'd just look the times up on their phone?

In this case, with the passengers almost entirely local, they either know the timetable for when they need to use it* or look up the times on their phone. (I’m not sure it’s an age thing, unless you count all my age 50+ friends as ‘young’, all of whom use their phones to check train times, even if they are commuters).

* in my experience the usage of the line is largely workers and students who will be using the same trains every day, and leisure travel at weekends either to the shops / ’football’ at Watford or to the pubs / park in St Albans Who will invariably make the journey often enough to know their train time, or as above, use their phone.

 

[Enthusiast]

There is a message "Messages have been posted since you loaded this page". Is there a way to store up a reply and read the latest messages that have been posted before replying?

Yes. You just click on the bit alongside that says "Click here to read them." The current response you are typing remains unaffected.

 

[RailEnable]

Bald Rick : Some of the Abbey line is capable of upgrade to dual track. We have no choice but to read between the lines (no pun intended) to discover what the actual plans are. I'm no expert on guided buses but I think the reason for the buses being guided is that the width is reduced i.e. suitable for a converted railway line.

If it's a case of swimming against the tide, I'm up for it. I believe in democracy. If you and others are opposed to a reduction in service frequency then do join the Hertsrail mailing list at https://hertsrail.org.uk i.e. join me in opposing it.

Enthusiast : Thank you.

 

[Dai Corner]

How do you use the Watford-St Albans line @RailEnable ?

Daily for commuting?
Weekly for shopping or leisure?
Less often?
Changing at Watford or walking between the St Albans stations for onward connections?
Between which stations?

 

[Bald Rick]

Some of the Abbey line is capable of upgrade to dual track.

Which parts? I must admit I don’t see many places that are capable when I use it. At least not many without incurring land take and/or significant civil engineering and therefore significant expense. For example all of the under bridges are single track. The only parts easily capable of double track are the short stretches under the A41 and M1 (and possibly the 414).

We have no choice but to read between the lines (no pun intended) to discover what the actual plans are.

Can I therefore suggest that you wait to see what the actual plans are, then, rather than suggest the line is proposed for closure, which it isn’t? Otherwise you might find that you have wasted a lot of time and energy campaigning against something that isn’t proposed.

There is absolutely no chance that the HERT is going to happen anyway; no Government is going to sanction £2.5bn of public money on a Rapid Transit system serving a collection of average sized towns, let alone a collection of such towns in the Home Counties.

If I were you I would think about supporting Abfly, and look for solutions that can deliver an improved service on the line for minimal expenditure. Think low single digit millions rather than billions.

I'm no expert on guided buses but I think the reason for the buses being guided is that the width is reduced i.e. suitable for a converted railway line.

A guided busway needs a little more width than a railway, per track, but not much. But one thing is for certain - a two lane guided busway needs a lot more width than a single track railway.

 

[stuu]

As an ex-resident of St Albans, may I suggest that actually a guided busway could be more useful than a railway? St Albans Abbey is very badly situated for most of the town, which must be a major factor in it's relative lack of popularity. I spent a couple of years working in Watford whilst I lived in St Albans, it was a nightmare to drive but the train was never timed right for the start or end of shifts. I don't live there any more but I would bet my house the A405 is still horrendous at 8am

Converting it to a busway could allow much higher frequencies with a decent level of reliability, and be extended away from the branch at each end to make it much more useful to more people. So it should at least be considered

 

[Dai Corner]

As an ex-resident of St Albans, may I suggest that actually a guided busway could be more useful than a railway? St Albans Abbey is very badly situated for most of the town, which must be a major factor in it's relative lack of popularity. I spent a couple of years working in Watford whilst I lived in St Albans, it was a nightmare to drive but the train was never timed right for the start or end of shifts. I don't live there any more but I would bet my house the A405 is still horrendous at 8am

Converting it to a busway could allow much higher frequencies with a decent level of reliability, and be extended away from the branch at each end to make it much more useful to more people. So it should at least be considered

Apparently it would have to be a single track/lane busway. Would buses be able to complete the journey faster than trains? If the route was extended onto the congested public road network how would that affect reliability?

 

[IanXC]

Linespeed improvement would do very little on the line, as the stops are so frequent.

By far the easiest way to save a couple of minutes (dons tin hat) is to make the service DCO. That would also free up the conductor to actually check tickets / take fares which in my experience they are reluctant to do (I’ve not had my ticket checked on the line for months). Another minute and a half could be achieved by not calling alternate services at Park St / How Wood which between them contribute fewer than 4 passengers a train. Sort the TSR out at Cotton Mill crossing, and it’s getting enough to be able to run a 30 minute frequency.

Having said all that, a significant majority of passengers on the line are not making connections, even in the peaks. Hence the regular, if not clockface timetable, as there is more revenue from a more frequent service than the extremely marginal extra cost of running it. Even though that is frustrating for the very few of us who do want to make connections!

This does seem to be the logical way forward for the line. Without knowing the line very well I'd also question whether an option to consider would be one service all stops and one express (maybe 1/2 intermediate stops?) as another way of achieving 2 trains an hour, even if that is at the cost of an absolutely clock face service.

 

[RailEnable]

Firstly, reduction in service frequency on the Abbey line :

From the working timetable (WTT) this is a 16-minute service with 5 minutes at St Albans Abbey and 8 minutes at Watford Junction to change ends, making a total of 45 minutes.

London Northwestern Railway (LNwR) are claiming that the timetable is too tight and therefore wish to reduce service frequency. Following a difference of opinion with the committee of rail user group Abfly on this specific issue, I made the decision in July to create the Abbey Line Passenger Association (ALPA), albeit at this time with no officers. Anyone wishing to help is welcome to make contact.

In the days when my parents ran Abfly, this was one of the most reliable train services in Britain. The line has not changed in the intervening years. However, Abfly has. The implication is that, if we campaign for the future of the line, the service will be reliable, this in itself casting doubts on the LNwR claim that the timetable is too tight.

The plan is to reduce service frequency to every 60 minutes off-peak whilst maintaining a service every 45 minutes at peak times. This is illogical since there are more passengers at peak times, therefore the service, if it is tight at all, is tighter at peak times than off peak. If the proposed hybrid is accepted, LNwR will "observe" that the service is reliable off-peak but not during the peaks, so the proposal will be followed by a further proposal to reduce the service frequency to hourly at all times. It is difficult to avoid inferring that the proposal has been prompted by DfT and is no more than a step towards closing the line.

ALPA opposes the planned reduction in service frequency. It is clear folks will have opinions for or against the planned reduction and a number of reasons have been presented on this forum. ALPA's proposed reasons are primarily the following :
1. The impact of service cancellation is greater when the service frequency is every 60 minutes.
2. The plan cannot be regarded as anything other than a step towards closure of the line.
Abfly is invited to agree. I do not rejoice in conflict.

Everyone is welcome to join ALPA, whether for or against the reduction in service frequency. However the ALPA stance on this is already decided and joining ALPA means accepting this. ALPA intends to campaign for the future of the line. Can you help ?

I am planning ahead for the day closure of the line is proposed. The more publicity there is for Hertsrail, the less likely closure of the line will be proposed, leaving me open on a charge of arrogance .... If HERT is dropped, I will be delighted.

Secondly, increase in service frequency on the Abbey line :

It is unlikely any proposal for a more frequent service on the line would be accepted by LNwR if it resulted in a reduction in time to change ends at the terminii or was tighter to operate, so any proposal would need to avoid this.

Thirdly, St Albans Abbey station :

St Albans is on a hill and neither station is well situated for access to the city centre. Nevertheless there are several routes for walking to the Abbey station, not just via Holywell Hill. It is a shame they are not publicised.

 

[zwk500]

There are many leaps of logic in that paragraph, not least that the desire to provide a more reliable service is a prelude to closure, but fundamentally what I'm taking from your post is that you're upset you didn't inherit Ablfy, and that you don't like/don't agree with the people now leading it.

 

[RailEnable]

Is there anyone who has the courage to respond constructively to carefully researched proposals ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

This does seem to be the logical way forward for the line. Without knowing the line very well I'd also question whether an option to consider would be one service all stops and one express (maybe 1/2 intermediate stops?) as another way of achieving 2 trains an hour, even if that is at the cost of an absolutely clock face service.

In case it helps, passenger numbers are included in the draft Hertfordshire rail strategy 2019 and are reproduced here in descending order. I have omitted Watford Junction since we are here considering patronage of the Abbey line.

St Albans Abbey 169,036

Watford North 101,716

Garston 80,540

How Wood 33,592

Bricket Wood 21,618

Park Street 21,428

 

[skyhigh]

2. The plan cannot be regarded as anything other than a step towards closure of the line.

You seem to be the only one who thinks this.

Is there anyone who has the courage to respond constructively to carefully researched proposals ?

What are you actually proposing?

 

[The Planner]

Is there anyone who has the courage to respond constructively to carefully researched proposals ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==


In case it helps, passenger numbers are included in the draft Hertfordshire rail strategy 2019 and are reproduced here in descending order. I have omitted Watford Junction since we are here considering patronage of the Abbey line.

St Albans Abbey 169,036

Watford North 101,716

Garston 80,540

How Wood 33,592

Bricket Wood 21,618

Park Street 21,428

People have done, including people who work in the industry (including me) and all have said there are no plans to close the line. Hence the responses you are getting, you are jumping to a massive conclusion.

 

[cle]

Surely rather than skip-stopping two small stations, you could choose one and close the other? To get the run time we need - although it sounds like it would be tight anyway. Not like there would be the investment to close both and build an equidistant one, as has been suggested for Marston. You may as well do the works for that.

I wonder if an hourly service (downgrade in waiting but more memorable and regular) - could merge with the hourly now-only Watford to Croydon. Would have to be a 4 car 350 but otherwise compatible re platforms/lines at Watford - and of course you can choose any minute to depart/arrive to fit the WCML times, as it's the only game in town on the Abbey line. Might give the Abbey line a little more range in direct destinations and connections, not least Shepherds Bush / Westfield - and a bit more visibility and thus usage. Not the quickest way from Croydon to St Albans of course!

Any any future increases if ever pathed in could use P10 - as could more Euston shuttles.

 

[RailEnable]

Posted 22 July : It is anticipated that HCC/DfT may announce in September a consultation on closing the Abbey line.

Clarification of :

ALPA opposes the planned reduction in service frequency. It is clear folks will have opinions for or against the planned reduction and a number of reasons have been presented on this forum. ALPA's proposed reasons are primarily the following :
1. The impact of service cancellation is greater when the service frequency is every 60 minutes.
2. The plan cannot be regarded as anything other than a step towards closure of the line.
Abfly is invited to agree. I do not rejoice in conflict.

1. The impact of service cancellation is greater when the service frequency is every 60 minutes.
2. As a consequence of point 1, the plan cannot be regarded as anything other than a step towards closure of the line.

Administrative note : this post is replaced by post 95