Why Farringdon is not listed in London Station Group (Wikipedia article)

[Uk125]

Hi

London station group - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

London station group​

The London station group is a group of 18 railway stations served by the National Rail network in central London. Most are terminal stations, either serving major national services or local commuter routes. A small number are through-stations that are considered terminals for ticketing purposes. All current stations in the group fall within London fare zone 1. A ticket marked "London Terminals" allows travel to any station in the group via any permitted route, as determined by the National Routeing Guide.

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'London Terminal' stations​

Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket may be valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services.

The exception to this is where there are National Rail journey opportunities that include a choice of London Terminal stations on the Thameslink route between London Bridge, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon and London St Pancras. For these Thameslink journeys, the London Terminal stations that you can use with a London Terminals ticket, will be determined by whether your journey will start / finish north or south of London as follows:

I'm wondering why Farringdon is not listed.

 

[Royston Vasey]

It's not a terminal. You have to pass through one of the London Terminals to get there (assuming you're not travelling just one stop in the core) which is usually where a London Terminals ticket validity finishes.

 

[Peter0124]

It's not a terminal. You have to pass through one of the London Terminals to get there (assuming you're not travelling just a stop or two in the core) which is usually where a London Terminals ticket validity finishes.

City Thameslink is there though

I was just editing to say that, yes. That's an anomaly

Haha no worries!

 

[Royston Vasey]

City Thameslink is there though

I was just editing to say that, yes.

Edit: City Thameslink is actually a London Terminal with origins south, as is Blackfriars, which also makes sense as Blackfriars is a common service termination point.

 

[swt_passenger]

City Thameslink is there though

It opened as a London Terminal (from the south) because it directly replaced Holborn Viaduct - a more obvious terminal.

 

[pdeaves]

Hi

London station group - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I'm wondering why Farringdon is not listed.

The stations defined as London Terminals are those defined by RDG in its 'feed'. I suppose they can define whatever they want, so long as the whole industry follows the definition.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Did farringdon, Barbican and Moorgate not count as London terminals (from the north) until the closure of the Moorgate branch?

 

[The Quincunx]

Did farringdon, Barbican and Moorgate not count as London terminals (from the north) until the closure of the Moorgate branch?

As far as I can see from the old data going back to 1995, of the three stations only Moorgate has been a member of the London Terminals group.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did farringdon, Barbican and Moorgate not count as London terminals (from the north) until the closure of the Moorgate branch?

Not via the Thameslink route. London Terminals tickets from the MML were not valid beyond St Pancras. There was schematic plan in the last paper fares manual, NFM 99, and my interpretation is that Moorgate was officially only a London Terminal if arriving directly via Finsbury Park, or if using the LU dual availability via Kings Cross and the Met/Circle.

That’s not too say people didn’t get away with it though, if not checked ‘en route’.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Did farringdon, Barbican and Moorgate not count as London terminals (from the north) until the closure of the Moorgate branch?

Farringdon was just a tube station until 1988, at which point Kings Cross Thameslink to the north and City Thameslink to the south became the Terminals relevant to the core.

 

[Western Sunset]

Farringdon was just a tube station until 1988, at which point Kings Cross Thameslink to the north and City Thameslink to the south became the Terminals relevant to the core.

Didn't passenger trains on the Widened Lines to Moorgate (to/from KX, St Pan and beyond) call there though?

 

[Snow1964]

Farringdon was just a tube station until 1988, at which point Kings Cross Thameslink to the north and City Thameslink to the south became the Terminals relevant to the core.

You could argue that Kings Cross Thameslink was just a reopened tube station (having been the site of the original 4 platform Metropolitan station).

So clearly that station was added to the group, as didn’t exist until early 1980s.

They removed Holborn Viaduct and Broad Street, and added City Thameslink so it is not like the list is never able to be updated.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Didn't passenger trains on the Widened Lines to Moorgate (to/from KX, St Pan and beyond) call there though?

Yes they did but not under modern ticketing, it ran down until the 1970s when Snow Hill tunnel was closed and the tracks lifted. Farringdon calls ceased when the Moorgate services were diverted onto their current route (the Northern City Line) in 1976, with York Road and the Kings Cross curves closed.

The Disused Stations pages for King's Cross York Road and Farringdon are extremely informative on this.

What I meant more precisely is that London Terminals was a concept introduced in the 1980s, at which point Farringdon wasn't a BR station.

 

[greyman42]

What I meant more precisely is that London Terminals was a concept introduced in the 1980s, at which point Farringdon wasn't a BR station.

Given that Farringdon is now very much more than an Underground station, is it likely that it may become a station to which London Terminal tickets would be valid too from the north. Or would that be a revenue issue?

 

[miklcct]

Given that Farringdon is now very much more than an Underground station, is it likely that it may become a station to which London Terminal tickets would be valid too from the north. Or would that be a revenue issue?

Farringdon is not and has never been a terminal. The same as Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street.

These stations are inside the ring of London Terminals.

There is traditionally a premium for travel into London further than the terminal, which should apply to these stations given their geographical positions.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Farringdon calls ceased when the Moorgate services were diverted onto their current route (the Northern City Line) in 1976, with York Road and the Kings Cross curves closed.

What I meant more precisely is that London Terminals was a concept introduced in the 1980s, at which point Farringdon wasn't a BR station.

Farringdon continued tobe a BR station throughout the 1980s, albeit only at peak hours until Thameslink opened.

Through services from the GN ceased in 1976, but the Widened Lines were electrified on AC in 1983 as part of the "Bed-Pan" scheme and through services from the Midland Main line to Moorgate continued until 2009 when the extensions to platforms at Farringdon blocked the line. So, were tickets from the MML to "London terminals" valid beyond Kings Cross Midland? (as it was then called)

 

[Minstral25]

Given that Farringdon is now very much more than an Underground station, is it likely that it may become a station to which London Terminal tickets would be valid too from the north. Or would that be a revenue issue?

Unlikely to be added as it can be accessed from both the Southern routes and the Northern routes, meaning stations like St Pancras would be viable for tickets from Brighton (for example). Farringdon acts as a firebreak between them. Although there was a period when a London Terminals ticket from the South would open the barriers at St Pancras which I am sure was an error.

Also Thameslink offer "London Thameslink" tickets which include all stations from Elephant/London Bridge through to St Pancras International, which removes need for a Terminals ticket if you use that route (however they tend to be slightly more expensive).

 

[swt_passenger]

.

Unlikely to be added as it can be accessed from both the Southern routes and the Northern routes, meaning stations like St Pancras would be viable for tickets from Brighton (for example). Farringdon acts as a firebreak between them. Although there was a period when a London Terminals ticket from the South would open the barriers at St Pancras which I am sure was an error.

This is not so much an error as a limitation of the system. AIUI all London Terminals tickets are coded the same, whichever subset of terminals happen to be relevant. Also AIUI barriers don’t actually check origins on arrival or destinations on departure, the processing power just isn’t enough.

 

[Western Sunset]

Farringdon is not and has never been a terminal. The same as Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street.

These stations are inside the ring of London Terminals.

There is traditionally a premium for travel into London further than the terminal, which should apply to these stations given their geographical positions.

On that criteria, should Cannon St and Charing Cross be considered as termini, as they are "inside the ring" of London Bridge?

 

[miklcct]

On that criteria, should Cannon St and Charing Cross be considered as termini, as they are "inside the ring" of London Bridge?

Cannon Street and Charing Cross are stations where trains terminate, therefore they are terminals.

The London stations which I think that it shouldn't be listed are Vauxhall and Old Street, as they are never terminals.

 

[30907]

Cannon Street and Charing Cross are stations where trains terminate, therefore they are terminals.

...and served by the "ring" or Circle Line.

The London stations which I think that it shouldn't be listed are Vauxhall and Old Street, as they are never terminals.

Vauxhall is a relatively recent addition, and naming it makes it a useful (maybe niche?) option from SE stations.

 

[norbitonflyer]

.

This is not so much an error as a limitation of the system. AIUI all London Terminals tickets are coded the same, whichever subset of terminals happen to be relevant. Also AIUI barriers don’t actually check origins on arrival or destinations on departure, the processing power just isn’t enough.

I once absent midedkly presented my SWR season ticket at Baker Street and the barriers accepted it. I had to be let back in again so I could touch out properly with my Oyster and avoid in uncompleted journey.

Baker Street is of course an acceptable alternative to Marylebone (from e.g Aylesbury)
Marylebone is an acceptable alternative route to paddington (from e.g Banbury)
Paddington is an acceptable alternative to Waterloo (from Basingstoke and points west)

So the system treats "London SR", Paddington, Marylebone and Baker Street as equivalent

Doubtless if there is significant season ticket traffic from Birmingham to "London Terminals" we also get Marylebone = Euston = St Pancras (from e.g St Albans or Bedford) = Kings Cross (at least since the opening of the "Canal Tunnels" allows trains fromthe GN main line into to St Pancras) = Moorgate = Liverpool Street (from e.g Cambridge, Enfield or Hertford) = Fenchurch Street (via Stratford or tickets vaid on both Southend routes)

 

[AM9]

Yes they did but not under modern ticketing, it ran down until the 1970s when Snow Hill tunnel was closed and the tracks lifted. Farringdon calls ceased when the Moorgate services were diverted onto their current route (the Northern City Line) in 1976, with York Road and the Kings Cross curves closed.

The Disused Stations pages for King's Cross York Road and Farringdon are extremely informative on this.

What I meant more precisely is that London Terminals was a concept introduced in the 1980s, at which point Farringdon wasn't a BR station.

But the trains from the MML to Moorgate via the widend lines didn't use Snow Hill tunnel and they ran from electrification

Given that Farringdon is now very much more than an Underground station, is it likely that it may become a station to which London Terminal tickets would be valid too from the north. Or would that be a revenue issue?

I think that 'London Terminals' tickets are now sold as Travelcards with Zones 1-6 validity at the Travelcard price, (according to BR Fares), so in effect a ticket to any terminal station in London is now at the TC price, e.g. £31.70 anytime and £24.40 off peak. That effectively removes any arguments about Farringdon because it is either available as an NR exit (via the TL/XR gateline) as a London Thameslink ticket, or as a Travelcard for zone 1 at any gateline.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...and served by the "ring" or Circle Line.

Vauxhall is a relatively recent addition, and naming it makes it a useful (maybe niche?) option from SE stations.

Vauxhall is useful for journeys to/from the SWR suburban network to/from ECML destinations, as there's a direct tube to King's Cross which there isn't at Waterloo.
Surprised it needed to be added to the list of London Terminals though- I never had any issues with Maltese Cross tickets operating the barriers there.

 

[Watershed]

Vauxhall is useful for journeys to/from the SWR suburban network to/from ECML destinations, as there's a direct tube to King's Cross which there isn't at Waterloo.
Surprised it needed to be added to the list of London Terminals though- I never had any issues with Maltese Cross tickets operating the barriers there.

There are plenty of stations that aren't London Terminals where Maltese Cross tickets can be used to start a cross-London transfer. Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, West Hampstead, Stratford, Baker Street, etc.

Therefore I agree that it's somewhat bizarre that Vauxhall is a London Terminal.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There are plenty of stations that aren't London Terminals where Maltese Cross tickets can be used to start a cross-London transfer. Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, West Hampstead, Stratford, Baker Street, etc.

Therefore I agree that it's somewhat bizarre that Vauxhall is a London Terminal.

It used to be the case that Maltese Cross tickets would operate the barriers at any LU station that was also served by the "big" railway. I assume that's still the case?