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starrymarkb

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http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=694

IEP deal 'close to completion'
Paul Clifton

February 2, 2011

A deal to build the next generation of inter-city train is edging closer.

The Department for Transport has developed a plan, which can now be put before transport secretary Philip Hammond for approval.

The complex arrangement would include electrification of the Great Western main line as far west as Bristol. But civil servants have decided there is not a sufficiently strong business case for expensive electrification through the Severn tunnel.

Bi-mode Hitachi Super Express trains would operate the inter-city service, using pantographs to Bristol and under-floor diesel engines thereafter. Hitachi would build a final assembly plant at Newton Aycliffe in County Durham for the trains. The company says it would create up to 800 jobs.

An alternative proposal to attach diesel locomotives to electric trains at Bristol was seriously considered, but eventually discounted. It’s hoped the new trains will enable four trains an hour between Paddington and Bristol, with two running via Bath.

Services to the south west will continue to use refurbished 35 year old HSTs for perhaps another decade.

Beyond that, it is likely that the Midland Main Line will be electrified. The DfT considers this would require a further new fleet of trains, releasing the current Meridian stock.

These trains could have an additional carriage with a pantograph fitted – the trains are built as diesel electrics. They could then be cascaded as bi-mode trains to the Plymouth and Penzance services. They would run on electric power as far as Newbury.

This deal was largely finalised in the last few days, and is now ready for political approval.

‘This secretary of state has a mind of his own,” commented one insider involved in the talks. ‘So it is still possible he may not choose this option. But it seems some heavy lobbying by the Japanese ambassador has paid off.’

This deal would cost dramatically less than the original Inter City Express proposal. Initially this was valued at up to £7bn but the costs are thought to have risen substantially.

By ordering a single bi-mode variant, the government would be dropping proposed separate diesel and electric versions of the train. These had led to an order so expensive and so complex that many observers had written off the project entirely. So far, the government has spent more than £25m developing the scheme.

Not electrifying west of Bristol would also save several hundred million pounds. And continuing with HSTs to Devon and Cornwall for a few years longer would allow the costs to be spread over a longer period.

The Midland Main Line was said to have at least as strong a business case for electrification as the Great Western, but the latter was more urgent because of the ageing rolling stock.

A final decision is still thought to be several weeks away.
 
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ajdunlop

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Mm, looks to be another scaling back of promises to the railways.
Not electrifying as far as Cardiff is the big dissapointment. It seams to me that hybrid trains make sense for conversions of old trains, like the plans for the Meridians, but for new trains you make them more complicated without many of the benefits of electrics. You loose efficiency by having to lug around the dead weight of the engines and fuel and the train is more complicated and therefore less reliable.
I think keeping the HSTs for a few years longer and replacing them with hybrid Meridians is a good idea, to allow fully electric trains on the midland mainline. I hope they hybridify the Voyagers while they're at it and these would be able to make use of the many parts of their routes which are electric and would make them longer. Of course there is there danger that the time before this second electrification happens gets extended more and more and the HSTs end up staying for even longer!
I wander if the plans still include changing the signalong over to being in cab and therefore allowing 140mph operation. Surely having the HSTs in the way is going to reduce speed and with them constantly breaking down it will put a bit of a damper on the shiny new upgrade.
 

Pumbaa

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Thanks for that. It's been in the wings for a while, some folks in DfT were determined to push it through regardless of the Foster report. Although I'm still very disappointed to see this half-arsed attempt being taken with millions spunked up the wall on useless trains.

And the piece also infers that Op Thor is being given the green light too, although it wouldn't surprise me if its just for the 222s only knowing the spin machine.
 

starrymarkb

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couple of things strike me

firstly is the delay in the extra panto trailers for the 222s - assuming a 10 year HST life extension that will mean the 222s will be coming up for 20 years old at that point. Could there be problems integrating the new build with the old given the 20 year gap? As new builds would they be able to claim grandfather rights if regulations/standards change.

Secondly would the planned change at Newbury mean that the change would be done on the move, or would all services have to stop for the changeover. barring any changing on the move it might make sense for the Westcountry services to change over at Reading and run diesel under the wires...
 

anthony263

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I seriously hope that they do change their mind on this about noty having the wires to Cardiff or swansea. I think having the Bi-mode IEP's is just asking for trouble.
 

Zoe

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Also, would the Westcountry services that run via Bristol still use HSTs or would these be IEP on diesel mode?
 

Greenback

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I seriously hope that they do change their mind on this about noty having the wires to Cardiff or swansea. I think having the Bi-mode IEP's is just asking for trouble.

I agree, but what can we expect from a scheme devised by civil servants in the DfT?
 

cle

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Well it would mean lots of fast trains stopping at Newbury - whereas many now run non-stop from Reading to at least Taunton, so the journey times will be increased.

It's very disappointing for Cardiff, I suspect they're baiting for some WAG funding. I wouldn't consider this final.

And the 4tph? I think that's clever talk for 2tph to Bristol Parkway, which then switch to diesel and continue to Wales. Like today. And combined with today's 2tph via Bath. Sneaky buggers...

The pantograph carriages can't come soon enough. XC could use them between Glasgow/Edinburgh and York/Donny - a decent stretch! And they need the seats! VWC could use them up to Crewe on Chester/North Wales services, and start new ones to Shrewbury and Blackpool before the wires get there.
 

TEW

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If electrification only extends to Newbury using bi mode trains seems rather pointless, pure diesels would be better. Saves the time penalty of an extra stop at Newbury and the time penalty of changing power source. It's for such a small electrified section as well.
 

Zoe

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Well it would mean lots of fast trains stopping at Newbury - whereas many now run non-stop from Reading to at least Taunton, so the journey times will be increased.
Newbury is the only town of significant size on the Berks and Hants between Reading and Taunton. Since 2006 most trains to Plymouth haven't stopped but have stopped at much smaller places like Pewsey and Castle Cary. I'd like to see more trains to the west stopping at Newbury.
 

WatcherZero

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If electrification only extends to Newbury using bi mode trains seems rather pointless, pure diesels would be better. Saves the time penalty of an extra stop at Newbury and the time penalty of changing power source. It's for such a small electrified section as well.

Their proposing to extend the committed electrification from Newbury to Bristol with the IEP order.
 

Zoe

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Their proposing to extend the committed electrification from Newbury to Bristol with the IEP order.
So the Berks and Hants is to be electrified as far as Westbury and then via Trowbridge to Bathampton Junction then?
 

sprinterguy

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Their proposing to extend the committed electrification from Newbury to Bristol with the IEP order.


Not according to the report above. Electrification to Bristol is taking place on the GWML, whereas Newbury is on the Berks and Hants: Extending the limit of electrification beyond there on the B&H would take the wires to Taunton, which is not to be the case.
 

Zoe

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Extending the limit of electrification beyond there on the B&H would take the wires to Taunton, which is not to be the case.
Not if they electrify to Westbury and then via Trowbridge to Bathampton Junction.
 

sprinterguy

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Not if they electrify to Westbury and then via Trowbridge to Bathampton Junction.

True, but that is also not stated as being part of the plan "Trains would run on electric power as far as Newbury": Suggesting that the current limit of electrification planned for the B&H will not be extended. Also, electrifying Westbury to Bathampton Junction would largely be a wasted expenditure, as (AFAIK), there are few trains that would utilise that route under the wires for the length of their journey.

Electrification to Bristol certainly looks like a push to get the WAG on board to cough up funding for electrification to Cardiff, and perhaps Swansea. The current proposal is taking a half-arsed course of action, which will leave both of the two major West Of England Intercity routes (Great Western to Wales and South West Main Line to Plymouth and Penzance) only partially electrified, which is displaying an unprecedented level of short-sightedness with regards to the number of missing links that will remain.
 

Zoe

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West Of England Intercity routes (Great Western to Wales and South West Main Line to Plymouth and Penzance) only partially electrified, which is displaying an unprecedented level of short-sightedness with regards to the number of missing links that will remain.
Sorry to be pedantic but I wouldn't call Wales a "West of England" route. It should also be noted that the Great Western Main Line is defined in the engineer's line references as Paddington to Penzance via Box and Bristol Temple Meads. In the longer term if line speeds between Paddington and Bristol and between Bristol and Exeter could be improved then it could negate the need for electrification from Reading to Cogload Junction via the Berks and Hants as intercity trains could all be routed via Bristol.
 

sprinterguy

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Sorry to be pedantic but I wouldn't call Wales a "West of England" route. It should also be noted that the Great Western Main Line is defined in the engineer's line references as Paddington to Penzance via Box and Bristol Temple Meads. In the longer term if line speeds between Paddington and Bristol and between Bristol and Exeter could be improved then it could negate the need for electrification from Reading to Cogload Junction via the Berks and Hants as intercity trains could all be routed via Bristol.

Well that sort of pedantry would throw up problems elsewhere as well, f’rinstance the West Coast Main line only actually gets close to the coast at one location (Hest Bank). For simplicity it’s easiest to group Intercity services operating out of a single terminus under one term. I could just have easily have said “All Intercity services from Paddington”, but then that throws up complications with the Paddington-Worcester-Hereford trains. So I’ll stick by my generalisation that “West of England Intercity services” encompasses all Paddington to Bristol or Taunton IC services that operate in the Western quadrant of England and the route extremities they serve beyond these points. As far as this proposal is concerned they’re all in the same boat. Anyway, small matter.
 
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It might have made more sense to electrify the Midland Main Line first. This is self-contained and would require a fleet of electric-only new trains. The ex-Midland HSTs could then have been redeployed to strengthen the GW fleet for the south-west of England services, as well as helping out on cross-country. The ex-Midland Meridians, with the addition of a pantograph, could have been used for the Bristol/South Wales services, with a progressive increase of electric operation as the GW was electrified in stages westwards.
 

Zoe

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It might have made more sense to electrify the Midland Main Line first. This is self-contained and would require a fleet of electric-only new trains. The ex-Midland HSTs could then have been redeployed to strengthen the GW fleet for the south-west of England services, as well as helping out on cross-country. The ex-Midland Meridians, with the addition of a pantograph, could have been used for the Bristol/South Wales services, with a progressive increase of electric operation as the GW was electrified in stages westwards.
If I rememeber correctly, it was decided that due to recent improvements on the Midland Mainline, electrification was no longer as imporant as on the GW.
 

sprinterguy

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It might have made more sense to electrify the Midland Main Line first. This is self-contained and would require a fleet of electric-only new trains. The ex-Midland HSTs could then have been redeployed to strengthen the GW fleet for the south-west of England services, as well as helping out on cross-country. The ex-Midland Meridians, with the addition of a pantograph, could have been used for the Bristol/South Wales services, with a progressive increase of electric operation as the GW was electrified in stages westwards.

Agreed, it would be a much more sensible way to undertake Great Western electrification, and I'm sure that a new fleet of pure electric IEP trains for the MML would be cheaper than the hybrid IEPs planned for Great Western.
 

Zoe

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There doesn't seem to be any news on the East Coast IEP order. I hope they are not going to be dragging underfloor engines all the way up to Edinburgh for services that done run north of there.
 

sprinterguy

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There doesn't seem to be any news on the East Coast IEP order. I hope they are not going to be dragging underfloor engines all the way up to Edinburgh for services that done run north of there.

Yeah, I wonder if the East Coast IEP order has been dropped from the specification altogether? Future East Coast franchise operators may have the option to buy "off the shelf" electric trains from other manufacturers when the time comes for the 91s to be replaced, as if a single design of bi-mode train is specified for IEP it would be absolute madness for East Coast trains to be hauling around never used diesel engines when the trains are running from the overheads throughout the journey.
 

asylumxl

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If I rememeber correctly, it was decided that due to recent improvements on the Midland Mainline, electrification was no longer as imporant as on the GW.

The recent non-existant or irrelevant improvements. All I can think of is platform extensions and supply upgrades at Radlett Jc on TL.

If they mean the work to raise line speed to 125mph, I believe no major work has been done yet.
 

sprinterguy

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Here’s another thought: If the IEP is to be a bi-mode train, and given that Bombardier have the ability and, it seems, the go ahead to fit pantograph cars to the existing 222s to make them bi-mode in the future, then why on earth is the DfT not procuring a fleet of new 222s with pantograph cars as standard for the GWML instead of IEP, so that when (if) the MML 222s get transferred over to the West of England later on, all the trains are compatible with each other???
 

cle

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Have they confirmed if 'to Bristol' includes via Bristol Parkway also?

I would assume so.
 

Zoe

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Have they confirmed if 'to Bristol' includes via Bristol Parkway also?
It says Bristol will get 4 trains per hour with 2 via Bath so I would think that is the case. What is not clear is if Cheltenham and Worcester/Hereford services will be run by HSTs or IEP.
 

cle

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It means they might not need to double Swindon Kemble for Welsh diversions also... f*ckers.
 

Pumbaa

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Here’s another thought: If the IEP is to be a bi-mode train, and given that Bombardier have the ability and, it seems, the go ahead to fit pantograph cars to the existing 222s to make them bi-mode in the future, then why on earth is the DfT not procuring a fleet of new 222s with pantograph cars as standard for the GWML instead of IEP, so that when (if) the MML 222s get transferred over to the West of England later on, all the trains are compatible with each other???

BECAUSE DAFT ARE PLAYING SILLY BUGGERS AND INCAPABLE OF RATIONAL DECISION MAKING! The Japanese have lobbied hugely, its paid off. Really angry about this still, more of a White Elephant than anything else in a long time.
 
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