Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[jupiter]

Dropped into my local station this afternoon to get my rover ticket, enquire about the possibility of delays Monday and reserve a seat on the last leg planned. Super-helpful and pleasant chap, couldn’t imagine the experience without open ticket offices.

 

[Wolfie]

Surely this given the unions more ammunition in talks though seeing as DfT say we're Public Sector now, other than Armed forces, it's quite consistent

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2022 ==


The nurses one is incorrect, it's cleaners and other low paid staff that will get 9.3%, nurses is 4%

Note that you leave out the civil service 2% plus up to an additional 1% with efficiencies.

 

[Babylon_Monk]

Agreed, I reckon once the 12 week 'protection' period is up, Network rail might go down the nuclear option of Fire & rehire citing breach of contract, especially for some of the staff who might have otherwise decided to leave if offered redundancy.

Yes, that sounds credible. Sack all the signallers so, erm, we can get agency staff to route the trains the day after for the next 6 months? NR aren't in a strong position and the unions and the RMT members know it. The minister playing hardball doesn't want a settlement though, clearly. Why else would he be referring to them as militants and union barons. How does he expect that to engender trust and respect and mutual satisfaction. He's frankly idiotic and the reason so many passengers journeys are being ruined.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

I suspect this is the case yes, I’ll put money on a strike early Sept just after the new PM is announced.

Trust is breaking down on all sides, employees, employers, unions and government it’ll end one way I fear with mass job losses with very poor terms of redundancy thanks to the RMT in particular wanting to keep their new found fame going.

That's an interesting assessment. We have the Transport Minister and NR claiming there are lazy staff with wild Spanish practices in place all across the network in every part of the realm with huge inefficiencies on an average salary of £47k. It's laughable in the extreme. If they can repeat lies ad verbatim why can't the RMT play games too? The RMT have behaved exemplary in how they've handled this dispute in my opinion. Think NR and the government have behaved shamefully and caused this to drag on which has totally backfired on the government. Now the rest of the public sector is balloting seeing the public support for strikes. Entirely avoidable, but they seem to know best.

What the public see is airports are a disaster, ferries are a disaster and trains are a disaster. Grant Shapps is the common denominator, not the unions, but nobody wants to hold him accountable for it.

 

[Dunnideer]

Agreed, I reckon once the 12 week 'protection' period is up, Network rail might go down the nuclear option of Fire & rehire citing breach of contract, especially for some of the staff who might have otherwise decided to leave if offered redundancy.

Yes I’m expecting fire and rehire. I’m really really worried. In fact I’m terrified, this has been the most unsettling and depressing period of my life.

 

[Carlisle]

Carlisle has always been very disappointed that more TOCs haven't pushed through driver only operation and regraded their guards as on board hosts or removed them. He views it as a spectacular management failing and capitulation in the face of union objections, but prefers to dance around the matter referring to productivity improvements etc. Naturally there cannot be any merit in having a traditional guard in the modern era.

Of course, I disagree with them entirely, but still, entitled to their opinion

Indeed, a number of us have been debating these issues for several years now, however consensus on a conclusion one way or another doesn’t currently appear any closer today than it did then.

 

[91108]

Yes I’m expecting fire and rehire. I’m really really worried. In fact I’m terrified, this has been the most unsettling and depressing period of my life.

It is very unlikely, albeit not impossible especially when that sh*te Thatcher tribute act Truss takes over the hot seat.
If it happens then every worker in the country is a slave from then onwards so at least you won’t be alone.

 

[Signal_Box]

Agreed, I reckon once the 12 week 'protection' period is up, Network rail might go down the nuclear option of Fire & rehire citing breach of contract, especially for some of the staff who might have otherwise decided to leave if offered redundancy.

As a non union, non striker it’s not at all far that the actions of some effect those who did not strike in a fire and rehire operation.

If this does turn out to the case then I hope their really happy royally screwing themselves and everyone else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

Yes I’m expecting fire and rehire. I’m really really worried. In fact I’m terrified, this has been the most unsettling and depressing period of my life.

Are you union and striking ?

I’m neither, this prospect has only hardened my contempt towards those who are striking and the union.

 

[Dunnideer]

Are you union and striking ?

I’m neither, this prospect has only hardened my contempt towards those who are striking and the union.

Yes I’m a member of the RMT. I’m sorry to hear that you hold me, a fellow railwayman just trying to provide the best for my family in a time of financial crisis, in contempt.

 

[91108]

As a non union, non striker it’s not at all far that the actions of some effect those who did not strike in a fire and rehire operation.

If this does turn out to the case then I hope their really happy royally screwing themselves and everyone else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==


Are you union and striking ?

I’m neither, this prospect has only hardened my contempt towards those who are striking and the union.

Maybe you’ll be spared for your loyalty and be allowed to keep your current salary and terms and condition.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes I’m expecting fire and rehire. I’m really really worried. In fact I’m terrified, this has been the most unsettling and depressing period of my life.

Won't happen. NR will just sit back, withdraw the offer and wait it out.

 

[Babylon_Monk]

Maybe you’ll be spared for your loyalty and be allowed to keep your current salary and terms and condition.

Considering the rail staff were called 'true heroes' by the same Transport Minister only 12 months ago and now he intends to obliterate their terms and conditions and working practices (after telling bald face lies about them) - I'll put money on it that he'd not give any non-union member the time of day either. He's made his bed. He'll now have to lie in it.

 

[Signal_Box]

Yes I’m a member of the RMT. I’m sorry to hear that you hold me, a fellow railwayman just trying to provide the best for my family in a time of financial crisis, in contempt.

You misunderstood my comment. I understand fully your position I’m in the same hence why I left the union and hold them in contempt for dragging out the dispute for their own ends, and those who lap up the brothers and sisters crap.

You, like me will be punished if/when fire and rehire happens with worse pay and conditions then now thanks to this misjudged action and non democratic choice by the union to not allow you to vote on the latest offer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

Maybe you’ll be spared for your loyalty and be allowed to keep your current salary and terms and condition.

I should be, why should I be punished when I wasn’t striking ?

The kind of thing a union would protect maybe? Ironic…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

Considering the rail staff were called 'true heroes' by the same Transport Minister only 12 months ago and now he intends to obliterate their terms and conditions and working practices (after telling bald face lies about them) - I'll put money on it that he'd not give any non-union member the time of day either. He's made his bed. He'll now have to lie in it.

If your referring to as making my bed, I ask you gender me correctly and not make an assumption.

Mrs Signal Box

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

Yes, that sounds credible. Sack all the signallers so, erm, we can get agency staff to route the trains the day after for the next 6 months? NR aren't in a strong position and the unions and the RMT members know it. The minister playing hardball doesn't want a settlement though, clearly. Why else would he be referring to them as militants and union barons. How does he expect that to engender trust and respect and mutual satisfaction. He's frankly idiotic and the reason so many passengers journeys are being ruined.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==


That's an interesting assessment. We have the Transport Minister and NR claiming there are lazy staff with wild Spanish practices in place all across the network in every part of the realm with huge inefficiencies on an average salary of £47k. It's laughable in the extreme. If they can repeat lies ad verbatim why can't the RMT play games too? The RMT have behaved exemplary in how they've handled this dispute in my opinion. Think NR and the government have behaved shamefully and caused this to drag on which has totally backfired on the government. Now the rest of the public sector is balloting seeing the public support for strikes. Entirely avoidable, but they seem to know best.

What the public see is airports are a disaster, ferries are a disaster and trains are a disaster. Grant Shapps is the common denominator, not the unions, but nobody wants to hold him accountable for it.

Fire and rehire isn’t literal…it’s sign and accept a new contract by X date or your employment is terminated.

There would be no mass sacking and shortage of staff, not initially anyway.

 

[43066]

Indeed, a number of us have been debating these issues for several years now, however consensus on a conclusion one way or another doesn’t currently appear any closer today than it did then.

You’ve still not told me which dispute you were referring to* earlier.

I’m still curious as to your motivations in this discussion. Why are you afraid to tell us what you for a living yourself?

*making up

I’m neither, this prospect has only hardened my contempt towards those who are striking and the union.

Seriously?!

 

[Babylon_Monk]

I should be, why should I be punished when I wasn’t striking ?

Fire and rehire isn’t literal…it’s sign and accept a new contract by X date or your employment is terminated.

There would be no mass sacking and shortage of staff, not initially anyway.

There would not be mass sackings because it would be political suicide. How do you not understand that? Do you really think passengers are going to pay huge fares to be managed by non-trained, inexperienced staff with a much increased chance of injury or death? Public confidence in the industry would be zero. The politicians in government would be finished for all time. The bill to pick up the pieces would be enormous.

The government cannot win this dispute without enormous damage. For all the sabre rattling there will come a point after a few more strikes where public pressure will reach a fury with government. They are setting fire to their own chances of re-election. The pragmatists soon will realise this is so stupid and going to be 100x more costly than just quietly giving the RMT a win and ending the dispute. Still, it's not the RMTs problem to solve now. Shapps has said publicly, he won't meet with the unions.

The only thing worse than being responsible for a crisis is being seen to be doing nothing about it.

 

[Signal_Box]

You’ve still not told me which dispute you were referring to* earlier.

I’m still curious as to your motivations in this discussion. Why are you afraid to tell us what you for a living yourself?

*making up



Seriously?!

Your a driver aren’t you ? So at this point you’ve not been out (this time, toc depending).

My grade is on its 3rd day of strike with two more planned the pinch will really hit when this dispute lingers on to Oct and Nov. Even now I’m hearing people I work with say their really struggling after just three separate days, how are they going to manage with 2 + however many more to come ?

 

[dk1]

Your a driver aren’t you ? So at this point you’ve not been out (this time, toc depending).

My grade is on its 3rd day of strike with two more planned the pinch will really hit when this dispute lingers on to Oct and Nov. Even now I’m hearing people I work with say their really struggling after just three separate days, how are they going to manage with 2 + however many more to come ?

Are they not volunteering for FDW & extra Sundays or did they not do that already?

 

[Signal_Box]

There would not be mass sackings because it would be political suicide. How do you not understand that? Do you really think passengers are going to pay huge fares to be managed by non-trained, inexperienced staff with a much increased chance of injury or death? Public confidence in the industry would be zero. The politicians in government would be finished for all time. The bill to pick up the pieces would be enormous.

The government cannot win this dispute without enormous damage. For all the sabre rattling there will come a point after a few more strikes where public pressure will reach a fury with government. They are setting fire to their own chances of re-election. The pragmatists soon will realise this is so stupid and going to be 100x more costly than just quietly giving the RMT a win and ending the dispute. Still, it's not the RMTs problem to solve now. Shapps has said publicly, he won't meet with the unions.

The only thing worse than being responsible for a crisis is being seen to be doing nothing about it.

I did say fire and rehire isn’t literal and there would be no mass sackings….

You would probably see the older staff who could take retirement, the rest of us like the majority of the population will be stuck in the job poor terms or not by pure need to pay our bills.

Your in effect forced to sign the new contract to keep a roof over your head, the more I think about it the more or sounds like a “good” idea for management and the government, with the union playing nicely along.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

Are they not volunteering for FDW & extra Sundays or did they not do that already?

No idea, I don’t concern myself with other grades to be honest. Not working RDW or Sundays only effects those who live on OT (we’ve a fair few here) if your switches on you live to your base and use your RDW to live a good lifestyle.

 

[TUC]

Nothing to do with “productivity”, though…



Indeed. I notice he’s happy to comment on the jobs of others, still silent on what he does himself…

Tbh, why should he? There's no reason why someone needs to talk about their own job in oder to justify commenting on the rail industry. Like I said, rail isn't a secret garden. It consumes millions of pounds of public money, so no one needs to justify holding it up to public scrutiny.

 

[Babylon_Monk]

I did say fire and rehire isn’t literal and there would be no mass sackings….

You would probably see the older staff who could take retirement, the rest of us like the majority of the population will be stuck in the job poor terms or not by pure need to pay our bills.

Your in effect forced to sign the new contract to keep a roof over your head, the more I think about it the more or sounds like a “good” idea for management and the government, with the union playing nicely along.

No, you still don't understand. Unionised staff will not accept any deal unless the union, their representatives agree it. So the company can threaten whatever it likes - agree to this or we fire you? Then go ahead and fire us! The company has nowhere to go. We are too big and too powerful to be pushed around by the company. At worst, we all go to tribunal and what I wrote above happens to the government and the industry at large.

As non-unionised staff you can take your chances negotiating on your own though. I think it looks grim for you!

 

[dk1]

No idea, I don’t concern myself with other grades to be honest. Not working RDW or Sundays only effects those who live on OT (we’ve a fair few here) if your switches on you live to your base and use your RDW to live a good lifestyle.

Being someone who never does FDW I’m almost guaranteed to get in at the moment with such a low count. I also am happy to work every Sunday going as detest the day so mop up anything uncovered. I’ve actually been better off financially even after being hit by 3 strike days.

 

[FR510]

Hardly surprising given most TOCs eventually just capitulated the last time serious productivity changes were attempted a few years ago.

At my TOC the company had agreed in principal a productivity deal with ASLEF for its drivers. The company went to the DFT for approval and were told not to offer any pay increase at this time. Not just for drivers, but for all grades within the TOC.

So this rubbish about the unions need to negotiate with the TOCs is complete nonsense. At least at my TOC they did and the government said no. So it's a complete stalemate.

 

[Signal_Box]

Being someone who never does FDW I’m almost guaranteed to get in at the moment with such a low count. I also am happy to work every Sunday going as detest the day so mop up anything uncovered. I’ve actually been better off financially even after being hit by 3 strike days.

Good, I’m genuinely pleased your okay. During covid we printed money at this place it was unbelievable so being the financially level headed person I am, I put the vast majority of it away for a rainy day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2022 ==

No, you still don't understand. Unionised staff will not accept any deal unless the union, their representatives agree it. So the company can threaten whatever it likes - agree to this or we fire you? Then go ahead and fire us! The company has nowhere to go. We are too big and too powerful to be pushed around by the company. At worst, we all go to tribunal and what I wrote above happens to the government and the industry at large.

As non-unionised staff you can take your chances negotiating on your own though. I think it looks grim for you!

As long as I’ve a payslip each month it’s better than the dole. I hope your right, and I’m wrong - I don’t have your faith in employment law or the union I’m afraid.

 

[dk1]

Good, I’m genuinely pleased your okay. During covid we printed money at this place it was unbelievable so being the financially level headed person I am, I put the vast majority of it away for a rainy day.

Are you talking about the additional Covid payments for testing?

 

[Signal_Box]

Are you talking about the additional Covid payments for testing?

Oh no, rest day work and additional Sundays. Testing was never a scheme at my location as far as I’m aware.

 

[dk1]

Oh no, rest day work and additional Sundays. Testing was never a scheme at my location as far as I’m aware.

Fair enough mate. DIs & trainees where paid daily to have temperature checks & weekly to have tests at my TOC to remain in a bubble with each other. Was quite lucrative even without taking in to account the overtime offered as well. All at a genteel laid back time on the railway passenger wise.

 

[footprints]

For all the sabre rattling there will come a point after a few more strikes where public pressure will reach a fury with government. They are setting fire to their own chances of re-election. The pragmatists soon will realise this is so stupid and going to be 100x more costly than just quietly giving the RMT a win and ending the dispute. Still, it's not the RMTs problem to solve now. Shapps has said publicly, he won't meet with the unions.

The only thing worse than being responsible for a crisis is being seen to be doing nothing about it.

There's no public or political pressure on the Government to resolve this dispute. There is also zero chance that the Government will give the RMT a win and sign off a big pay rise for rail workers which will then only fuel demand for the same from teachers, nurses etc. The RMT have to fail and be seen to fail as far as the Government are concerned. If the RMT call strike after strike and have absolutely nothing to show for it, that will suit Truss and co down to the ground.

 

[43066]

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with what everyone else does and their T&Cs. You're the one who has chosen to come on a railway forum and give us your opinions on railway industrial relations. Not surprisingly others have a view as well.

I’m the one with an unhealthy obsession with the Ts and Cs of others, am I!? That’s raised a smile . Almost as if I’m the one on a forum about an industry I don’t even work in debating Ts and Cs of people doing jobs I have no concept of myself…

Tbh, why should he? There's no reason why someone needs to talk about their own job in oder to justify commenting on the rail industry. Like I said, rail isn't a secret garden. It consumes millions of pounds of public money, so no one needs to justify holding it up to public scrutiny.

Why do you keep answering for him?

It often turns out that the most anti staff/anti union people on here have applied for railway jobs themselves and been knocked back. I find it instructive to bottom that out because it gives an insight into how seriously to take their postings…

As long as I’ve a payslip each month it’s better than the dole. I hope your right, and I’m wrong - I don’t have your faith in employment law or the union I’m afraid.

Keep in mind that the contents of that pay slip is in no small part the result of union negotiations over many years, including buying and selling Ts and Cs. By not being in the union you’re effectively denying yourself any input into that process.

 

[Kite159]

No, you still don't understand. Unionised staff will not accept any deal unless the union, their representatives agree it. So the company can threaten whatever it likes - agree to this or we fire you? Then go ahead and fire us! The company has nowhere to go. We are too big and too powerful to be pushed around by the company. At worst, we all go to tribunal and what I wrote above happens to the government and the industry at large.

As non-unionised staff you can take your chances negotiating on your own though. I think it looks grim for you!

Wasn't there a similar line for the Southern guards who at the end got forced into signing the new contract to become On Board Supervisors instead of Guards?

And what do you think will happen at a tribunal, other than costing the union money when it gets thrown out as sadly Fire & Rehire is legal (British Gas springs to mind) and the legal protection for breaching your employment contract by going on strike ends after 12 weeks. They can say the working relationship has broken down to a point they are terminating the contract.

Most likely the Union will grind their teeth but recommend the staff sign up to the new contract or else be out of a job.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Working in group finance at NR I'm pretty confident there really isn't anymore money on the table from an internal source. The only was I can see the offer being improved is if the Government decide to fund an additional offer - which we all know is almost definitely not going to happen.

Why are you so sure it is not going to happen ? You may well be right but there is history of Whitehall / government finding some funding when their arses are against the wall.

Not suggesting it absolutely is the case here, but there are inconsistencies. The collapse of franchising and it's subsequent rescue by DfT is not the fault of the rail workers. We could predict it was eventually going to happen - Exhibit A being the franchise timetable of XC trains in the last two decades. So if successive governments covering for Whitehall who are actually running the privatisation shambles accept it is flawed, why is it they want to penalise the staff for their failure ? Proposing staff work more hours for the same salary is immoral and debasing. Perhaps ASLEF and RMT choosing the midpoint of a parliament is not the greatest, but they have been trying to negotiate with Whitehall who won't budge. Well someone is going to have to budge. Forcing staff to do more for less which is what increasing weekly contracts is, is the precursor to more staff leaving the industry. Some of them won't stand for it, particularly in the current clrcumstances.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Why are you so sure it is not going to happen ?

Because I have been in some of the conversation with Whitehall. I would be quite happy to be wrong! We need this over ASAP.

In my view, the deal is fairly good. The access to discounted travel for NR staff alone is equivalent to a big pay rise for me because I don’t have a car and travel everywhere by train. I think 4% now (backdated to Jan 1st) and 4% again in next January is decent enough.

then once we are out of the current predicament and spend 18 months working through the productivity improvements and efficiencies, a much better pay deal can be secured.