RA instruction on platform starting signals

[strange6]

I have always thought these 'RA' templates on platform starting signals were pointless. What is the instruction to drivers exactly with regards to these templates? The main aspect could be off yet the platform supervisor controls the RA sign. Surely the guards buzzer and the main aspect are the priotity for the driver. What is the point to the platform man putting the 'RA' sign on?

 

[Flamingo]

For dispatching DOO for a start (or empty stock), or dispatch when the Dvr/Gd buzzer is broken and the guard gives the green flag / lamp.

 

[louis97]

I have always thought these 'RA' templates on platform starting signals were pointless. What is the instruction to drivers exactly with regards to these templates? The main aspect could be off yet the platform supervisor controls the RA sign. Surely the guards buzzer and the main aspect are the priotity for the driver. What is the point to the platform man putting the 'RA' sign on?

The idea of the RA is mainly to allow trains that do not have a guard buzzer, or of which are a DOO service to be safely dispatched.

 

[strange6]

I thought that may be the case. It's a bit pointless having them at Manchester Victoria though considering every service has a guard on the train

 

[Zoe]

Some stations, for example Birmingham New Street require trains to be dispatched on the RA rather than the buzzer. As discussed in the train dispatch thread, the platform staff will operate the RA plunger when the green flag or lamp is shown.

 

[Kneedown]

At Birmingham New St and Man Picc the illumination of the RA indicator is the only authority for the train to start. This, i believe, is due to the fact that it is interlinked to the train information screens and updates them automatically. In other locations they were introduced for loco hauled trains for when the driver was not on the pkatform side to save him having to cross the cab to look for the green flag.

Apologies for any typo's, sent from Galaxy S.

 

[strange6]

At Birmingham New St and Man Picc the illumination of the RA indicator is the only authority for the train to start. This, i believe, is due to the fact that it is interlinked to the train information screens and updates them automatically. In other locations they were introduced for loco hauled trains for when the driver was not on the pkatform side to save him having to cross the cab to look for the green flag.

Apologies for any typo's, sent from Galaxy S.

At man vic, I think it's only there for giving the platform staff something to do.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

At Birmingham New St and Man Picc the illumination of the RA indicator is the only authority for the train to start. This, i believe, is due to the fact that it is interlinked to the train information screens and updates them automatically. In other locations they were introduced for loco hauled trains for when the driver was not on the pkatform side to save him having to cross the cab to look for the green flag.

Apologies for any typo's, sent from Galaxy S.

I don't think the CIS screens are anything to do with it. I believe it is due to the signal sighting and high risk of starting from a platform against a red signal. At Piccadilly, for example, it is often not possible to see the signal at the end of the platform and even with OFF indicators there is lots of other paraphernalia to clutter up the line of sight and distract you. The RA will only appear if the associated signal is clear, so if the driver is looking for an RA rather than listening for a buzzer, then he should never set off without a clear signal.

Other uses of it around the network are traditionally been loco hauled trains on curved platforms where the guard / driver have not been within eye contact due to the curvature, length etc. York still has them for long charter trains and the platform staff activate them when the Driver cannot see the Guard, although they are not used in normal circumstances. I believe Leeds has them aswell for the same situations, but again not normally used.

DOO trains obviously need someone to tell them to go at busy locations - hence the use of CD (Close Doors) and RA (Right Away) indicators for the driver.

 

[FGWman]

The main aspect could be off yet the platform supervisor controls the RA sign.

No the RA is interlocked with the signal. If the signal is red the RA indicator will not illuminate.

 

[ChrisCooper]

West Coast never seemed to use the buzzers anyway back in the days of loco haulage. Trains always seemed to be dispatched using either the RA sign or a flag/light. I'm not sure if the 87s even had a buzzer. The 86s on the GEML did, and it was used, but I don't know if that was fitted after they were transfered. Oviously the 90s and DVTs presented another problem when it comes to dispatch as the driver does not have access to an opening window without leaving their seat. AFAIK all the main Intercity stations on the WCML have RA signals. Cross Country loco hauled did not have buzzers anyway.

 

[furryfeet]

the OFF signals are indeed interlocked with the main signal and are there to let the guard know that the signal has been cleared to a proceed aspect.
They are there to lessen the risk of "ding ding and away" accidents.

 

[175001]

At man vic, I think it's only there for giving the platform staff something to do.

Trust me, the platform staff at Vic do a lot more than just dispatch us, especially if they are on P4/5!!!

 

[Tufty]

The RA for dispatch is used at Man Picc/Man Airport/Man Vic and none of these stations have DOO services. It depends on local rules, prevailing signalling in the area and type of train i.e loco hauled. It is a very important part of the safe dispatch of trains.

 

[EltonRoad]

The CD and RA indicators are also used for FCC services at Cambridge and Ely. It is not common to see a guard on these services.

 

[Mojo]

It's nothing to do with CIS. An illuminated RA indicator is the ready-to-start signal for the train driver and could also be expressed with 2 on the bells from the guard or a green flag/green light held steady.

At Birmingham New Street the reason for the compulsory use of RA for all trains is because if there were a Spad at this location caused by ''ding ding and away'' it could result in significant danger, not helped by the (lack of) overlaps with the station starter signals. As posters above have said, the RA indicator is linked to the signal and will not display unless the signal is OFF.

At stations with DOO trains its useful to indicate when the train is ready-to-start as it saves the driver hanging out of the window looking for a green lamp/flag.

At other locations it's a throwback to the days of loco hauled trains where there was no driver-guard communication (bells/buzzers). Most stations on the WCML use RA indicators to dispatch Pendolinos for some reason, even at locations where all other trains don't use RA (eg. Birmingham International).

 

[Nym]

I thought that may be the case. It's a bit pointless having them at Manchester Victoria though considering every service has a guard on the train

What about when the northern belle runs through top n tailed by a 67, although I did once see it on platform 3 where the loco had to overhang the signal, he had to stand outside the cab, look at the signal, then get in the cab to set off...

 

[Kneedown]

It's nothing to do with CIS.

I'm sure the CIS at New St has been upgraded since i originally learnt the route, but at the time i did it was linked to the platform moniters, and that was the main reason given to us by the route learning instructors.

An illuminated RA indicator is the ready-to-start signal for the train driver and could also be expressed with 2 on the bells from the guard or a green flag/green light held steady.

True, but at New St, Man Picc and Man Apt it is not permitted for the Guard to use the buzzer. At New St, if the Driver was not in a position to see the signal or Ready to Start indicator, due to curvature for instance, then the platform supervisor will operate the indicator, then walk to a position where he can see that the signal and indicator are both cleared. He will then give a green handsignal directly to the driver, which is his authority to proceed forward until he himself can see the signal and indicator.

 

[Zoe]

True, but at New St, Man Picc and Man Apt it is not permitted for the Guard to use the buzzer.

If the RA indicator has failed for any reason would the guard then use the buzzer or would a green flag have to be used?

 

[TDK]

If the RA indicator has failed for any reason would the guard then use the buzzer or would a green flag have to be used?

On trains with a buzzer the guard will give the ready to start signal to the driver with the buzzer, if the buzzer is not working or the train does not have a buzzer it will be a green aspect from the guard to the driver.

 

[Kneedown]

I don't think the CIS screens are anything to do with it.

As i said above, if not now, then they were once in the case of New St. Either that or myself and hundreds of other Drivers have been the victim of some vast conspiracy of disinformation.

I believe it is due to the signal sighting and high risk of starting from a platform against a red signal. At Piccadilly, for example, it is often not possible to see the signal at the end of the platform and even with OFF indicators there is lots of other paraphernalia to clutter up the line of sight and distract you.

In the dead end platforms at Picc that we normally use, the OFF indicators double up as the RA indicators.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the RA indicator has failed for any reason would the guard then use the buzzer or would a green flag have to be used?

If that were the case then the traincrew would be informed by the platform staff, and he would instruct us as to what method of dispatch to use. When i say it is not permitted to use a buzzer, i am referring to normal working arrangements.

 

[Fred26]

The CD and RA indicators are also used for FCC services at Cambridge and Ely. It is not common to see a guard on these services.

On FCC, there's CD/RA at Royston, Stevenage, Welwyn Garden City, Hertford North, Finsbury Park and Kings Cross (obviously). At Stevenage where a guard is seen regularly (East Coast/Hull Trains), the CD/RA is ignored and a bat/lamp are used instead. I suppose, technically, CD/RA could be used for these services, if the guard was in a position to see the CD/RA box, which wouldn't be an issue with Hull Trains, but may be with East Coast. This isn't the 'done thing', however.
Also, CD/RA is not used for 12-car trains with FCC (bat and flag, more than one man job), generally. There are occasions when it can be used. When 12-car trains run from platform four at Stevenage via Hertford, the driver can clearly see the CD/RA box and the platform staff can see the whole train. That is rare though.

 

[Aictos]

For dispatching DOO for a start (or empty stock), or dispatch when the Dvr/Gd buzzer is broken and the guard gives the green flag / lamp.

person in charge of the platform

d) Starting a train using a right away (RA) indicator If there is a right away indicator, and the train is not fitted with a working bell or buzzer communication, you must use the RA indicator to relay the guards READY-TO-START signal to the driver.

Now the rulebook and the module concerned with Dispatching goes in far greater detail and covers everything concerned with the subject which you can visit here

 

[Zoe]

Until the last 10 years or so, RA plungers were often not locked so in theory anyone could have pressed them and caused a major accident with loco hauled slam door trains where the driver would start leaving the station with the doors open.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Until the last 10 years or so, RA plungers were often not locked so in theory anyone could have pressed them and caused a major accident with loco hauled slam door trains where the driver would start leaving the station with the doors open.

They still aren't at York. They are just another button on the post next to the TRTS button.

 

[Royston Vasey]

As alluded to earlier this is able to virtually eliminate "ding, ding and away" incidents in that the RA symbol tends to be placed right next to the starting signal itself. It is much harder to look at an RA indicator and a red signal right next to it and think it is ok to proceed.

Belt and braces perhaps 99.99% of the time where there is also a guard, but the consequences of a mistake can be grave.

Also a team of platform dispatchers may have a better collective view of a long and curving or obstructed view platform (say at York) than one guard at it is important that it is they who give the rightaway.

 

[Tomnick]

As alluded to earlier this is able to virtually eliminate "ding, ding and away" incidents in that the RA symbol tends to be placed right next to the starting signal itself. It is much harder to look at an RA indicator and a red signal right next to it and think it is ok to proceed.

As stated earlier, the RA indicator won't illuminate unless the starting signal is displaying a proceed aspect, adding further protection.

 

[Aictos]

As stated earlier, the RA indicator won't illuminate unless the starting signal is displaying a proceed aspect, adding further protection.

Also to note that giving the Close Doors to the Driver/Guard while displaying a prohibitive signal can result in the member of staff being suspended from dispatch duties while waiting a investigation into the incident which has happened before once as I believe it counts as a dispatch against a prohibitive signal incident.

 

[O L Leigh]

As stated earlier, the RA indicator won't illuminate unless the starting signal is displaying a proceed aspect, adding further protection.

Not so. I've seen it done.

The difference, however, is that the RA will remain lit until the signal reverts to danger once the train has passed it. However, a member of platform staff demonstrated that you could light it against a red signal even though it goes out immediately when the key is released.

O L Leigh

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Not so. I've seen it done.

The difference, however, is that the RA will remain lit until the signal reverts to danger once the train has passed it. However, a member of platform staff demonstrated that you could light it against a red signal even though it goes out immediately when the key is released.

O L Leigh

The RA should remain illuminated until the signal reverts to red. If the RA can be illuminated with the signal showing danger it's a wrong side failure and should be attended to as a matter of urgency.

 

[Royston Vasey]

As stated earlier, the RA indicator won't illuminate unless the starting signal is displaying a proceed aspect, adding further protection.

Yes, you are right of course. I was just highlighting that the RA indicator is by the signal and therefore the driver is looking at the same place to confirm whether he has the road and the RA. It forces him to look at the signal basically; he has only one place to look rather than listening for the buzzer and looking at the signal. Obviously all elementary stuff, but mistakes happen.