Off Peak day Travel card - Validity on Underground

[P Binnersley]

I am going to London tomorrow (Friday) on an Off-Peak Day Travelcard (From Coventry - Route Any Permitted).

Being a Friday there are no restrictions on which trains I can use to London, and I aim to arrive circa 09:00. Can I jump straight on the Underground, or do I have to wait for the TfL off peak to start at 09:30?

 

[Haywain]

I am going to London tomorrow (Friday) on an Off-Peak Day Travelcard (From Coventry - Route Any Permitted).

Being a Friday there are no restrictions on which trains I can use to London, and I aim to arrive circa 09:00. Can I jump straight on the Underground, or do I have to wait for the TfL off peak to start at 09:30?

You'll need to wait until 0930.

 

[P Binnersley]

Thanks. Cup of coffee it is then.

 

[miklcct]

You'll need to wait until 0930.

The restriction G9 doesn't say anything about this restriction, compared to a Travelcard from London whose restriction B1 prohibits travel before 0930.

How do you get the conclusion that you need to wait until 0930?

 

[MikeWh]

I've just tried booking a ticket from Coventry to Charing Cross for this morning. The itineraries generated did not suggest waiting until 0930 at Euston. My gut feeling would be to try it and if the barriers say no then go to plan b and enjoy a coffee.

 

[mattdickinson]

The restriction G9 doesn't say anything about this restriction, compared to a Travelcard from London whose restriction B1 prohibits travel before 0930.

How do you get the conclusion that you need to wait until 0930?

The TfL Conditions of Carriage override the restriction codes.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-conditions-of-carriage.pdf

This is sometimes beneficial, where the restriction code would bar travel after 0930, and sometimes restrictive, where the restriction code would allow travel before 0930.

 

[Nottingham59]

Can the OP walk to St Pancras and hop onto Thameslink before 0930h, if that was going in roughly the right direction?

 

[Haywain]

The restriction G9 doesn't say anything about this restriction, compared to a Travelcard from London whose restriction B1 prohibits travel before 0930.

How do you get the conclusion that you need to wait until 0930?

Good luck with that argument at a London Underground gateline.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Can the OP walk to St Pancras and hop onto Thameslink before 0930h, if that was going in roughly the right direction?

I think they will enforce the 09.30 on the Travelcard element at the barriers there.

There's at least one member of staff there who refuses to allow the holders of the return leg of super off peak through tickets heading south across London from northerly starting points past the barriers in the evening peak which are perfectly valid, so little chance of beating the morning peak cut off restriction...

 

[miklcct]

The TfL Conditions of Carriage override the restriction codes.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-conditions-of-carriage.pdf

This is sometimes beneficial, where the restriction code would bar travel after 0930, and sometimes restrictive, where the restriction code would allow travel before 0930.

If you try to travel on London Overground or Thameslink service instead of London Underground, will you be bound by the National Rail Condition of Travel instead which doesn't reference the 0930 restriction there?

 

[Alex365Dash]

If you try to travel on London Overground or Thameslink service instead of London Underground, will you be bound by the National Rail Condition of Travel instead which doesn't reference the 0930 restriction there?

London Overground and Elizabeth line services are bound by the TfL Conditions of Carriage in addition to the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[P Binnersley]

I got an earlier train than planned and got to Euston Underground at c08:45. Barrier said "Seek assistance", so I sought a coffee instead.

Ticket was fine after 09:30.

 

[cactustwirly]

London Overground and Elizabeth line services are bound by the TfL Conditions of Carriage in addition to the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

On what basis? They are national rail services so the NRCoT apply

 

[Alex365Dash]

On what basis? They are national rail services so the NRCoT apply

The NRCoT does indeed apply - the "TfL Conditions of Carriage for Bus, Tube, Tram, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line Services" apply as well as the NRCoT.

You would be bound by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, but in this example I don’t think it makes any difference if they both apply.

 

[yorkie]

Consumer law ensures that any contradiction is resolved in the passengers favour.

 

[miklcct]

The NRCoT does indeed apply - the "TfL Conditions of Carriage for Bus, Tube, Tram, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line Services" apply as well as the NRCoT.

You would be bound by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, but in this example I don’t think it makes any difference if they both apply.

I buy my National Rail ticket from a National Rail retailer and attempt to take a National Rail service. It is very clear that the contract is NRCoT, which London Overground is clearly stated as a participant.

The only statement for the NRCoT suggesting other terms and condition is the following:

Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right
to travel on bus services). Where this is the case, your Ticket is also evidence of a
contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using
their services.

As there is no other party involved, this statement doesn't apply at all.

And according to National Rail Enquiries, Off-Peak Travelcards are time-restricted by the restriction code on the ticket, where in this case there is nothing referencing 09:30. So the conclusion is that there is nothing in the contract restricting travel on National Rail services before 09:30.

 

[cactustwirly]

The NRCoT does indeed apply - the "TfL Conditions of Carriage for Bus, Tube, Tram, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line Services" apply as well as the NRCoT.

You would be bound by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, but in this example I don’t think it makes any difference if they both apply.

If I buy a National Rail ticket from a National Rail ticket office, where does it say that the TfL conditions apply?

 

[Nottingham59]

If I buy a National Rail ticket from a National Rail ticket office, where does it say that the TfL conditions apply?

NRCOT:
"4.4 Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case, your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services."

 

[miklcct]

NRCOT:
"4.4 Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case, your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services."

London Overground is not another party here. It's part of National Rail.

This argument can only be used when travelling on the Underground, DLR or London Buses.

 

[Watershed]

NRCOT:
"4.4 Some Tickets entitle you to goods or services from another party (for instance the right to travel on bus services). Where this is the case, your Ticket is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party, whose own conditions will apply when using their services."

Indeed. But Elizabeth Line and London Overground are both parties to the NRCoT, so TfL conditions don't necessarily apply to use of EL/LO services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Consumer law ensures that any contradiction is resolved in the passengers favour.

As it's been posted here, I suspect this will now be resolved with the addition of "Where such validity is included, not valid on Transport for London services until 0930" to the restriction code. I suspect that code was used on other tickets and so it was unwittingly modified for this one.

Avanti don't have many outboundary Travelcards so knowing their competence they likely didn't even think of this.

 

[pelli]

If you wanted to rely on just the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Routeing Guide, then I don't think you'd be able to find anything stating what a Travelcard is valid for, so it seems you couldn't justify using it on anything other than a return journey between the origin and London!

In order to justify use of the Travelcard element within London, you can turn to the TfL Conditions of Carriage, which states that a Day Travelcard can be used for "Unlimited journeys on Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services within the zones shown on the ticket. [...]" but in the very next paragraph you find out that "Off-Peak tickets can be used from 0930 on Mondays to Fridays".

However, if you instead turn to the National Rail Enquiries website, then you will find a statement about unlimited travel on various services, followed by, under "Where and When Can I Use My Travelcard?",

Travelcards purchased outside of the London Fare Zones area: [...] Off-Peak Day Travelcards are valid for travel from whenever Off-Peak fares become available from your origin station – check our Journey Planner to see whether an Off-Peak fare is available when you wish to travel. Valid up to the early hours of the following day, and within the London Fare Zones area you may use the Travelcard until 04:29 and all travel, including beyond the London Fare Zones must be completed by that time.

The statement is ambiguous as to whether "valid for travel" means valid just for the journey towards London or valid for the Travelcard element within London, so resolving the ambiguity in favour of the customer results in the conclusion that the Off-Peak Day Travelcard from Coventry is valid for use in London from 05:40 or 07:03 on Fridays (depending on whether you count the departure or arrival time of the first Off-Peak train!).

Bonus challenge: Talk your way past gatelines and ticket inspectors in morning-peak London with an Off-Peak Day Travelcard from Iver, bought with an itinerary Iver 00:16 to Paddington 01:13. This costs £15.20 so will save you 25% compared with a standard (inboudary Z1-6) Anytime Day Travelcard for £20.30! (But alas it's still more expensive than the Oyster Z1-6 day cap at £14.10...)

 

[cactustwirly]

If you wanted to rely on just the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Routeing Guide, then I don't think you'd be able to find anything stating what a Travelcard is valid for, so it seems you couldn't justify using it on anything other than a return journey between the origin and London!

In order to justify use of the Travelcard element within London, you can turn to the TfL Conditions of Carriage, which states that a Day Travelcard can be used for "Unlimited journeys on Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services within the zones shown on the ticket. [...]" but in the very next paragraph you find out that "Off-Peak tickets can be used from 0930 on Mondays to Fridays".

However, if you instead turn to the National Rail Enquiries website, then you will find a statement about unlimited travel on various services, followed by, under "Where and When Can I Use My Travelcard?",

The statement is ambiguous as to whether "valid for travel" means valid just for the journey towards London or valid for the Travelcard element within London, so resolving the ambiguity in favour of the customer results in the conclusion that the Off-Peak Day Travelcard from Coventry is valid for use in London from 05:40 or 07:03 on Fridays (depending on whether you count the departure or arrival time of the first Off-Peak train!).

Bonus challenge: Talk your way past gatelines and ticket inspectors in morning-peak London with an Off-Peak Day Travelcard from Iver, bought with an itinerary Iver 00:16 to Paddington 01:13. This costs £15.20 so will save you 25% compared with a standard (inboudary Z1-6) Anytime Day Travelcard for £20.30! (But alas it's still more expensive than the Oyster Z1-6 day cap at £14.10...)

The ticket clearly states it is valid for travel in fare zones 1-6....

It is clearly valid to travel on London Overground and the Elizabeth line from whenever the restriction codes state it is valid from

 

[pelli]

The ticket clearly states it is valid for travel in fare zones 1-6....

It is clearly valid to travel on London Overground and the Elizabeth line from whenever the restriction codes state it is valid from

I believe the ticket will show something like "Between [Origin] and London Zones 1-6", which I guess implies that it should be valid for one (return) journey, following permitted routes according to the Routeing Guide as if it were a point-to-point ticket between [Origin] and any National Rail station within Zones 1-6 of your choice. I don't think it's clear that it would be valid for unlimited travel, or for a journey that doesn't follow a permitted route for some specific destination.

 

[cactustwirly]

I believe the ticket will show something like "Between [Origin] and London Zones 1-6", which I guess implies that it should be valid for one (return) journey, following permitted routes according to the Routeing Guide as if it were a point-to-point ticket between [Origin] and any National Rail station within Zones 1-6 of your choice. I don't think it's clear that it would be valid for unlimited travel, or for a journey that doesn't follow a permitted route for some specific destination.

So surely by the same logic a Day Ranger ticket is only valid for a point to point journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe the ticket will show something like "Between [Origin] and London Zones 1-6", which I guess implies that it should be valid for one (return) journey, following permitted routes according to the Routeing Guide as if it were a point-to-point ticket between [Origin] and any National Rail station within Zones 1-6 of your choice. I don't think it's clear that it would be valid for unlimited travel, or for a journey that doesn't follow a permitted route for some specific destination.

Travelcards are valid for unlimited travel within London. That is literally the whole point of them.

 

[The exile]

Can the OP walk to St Pancras and hop onto Thameslink before 0930h, if that was going in roughly the right direction?

Is it not only Avanti WC who have removed the Friday morning peak restrictions into Euston? Once you get to Euston you are not going to be using Avanti....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not only Avanti WC who have removed the Friday morning peak restrictions into Euston. Once you get to Euston you are not going to be using Avanti....

Avanti removed it, but they did so by changing the restriction codes on their priced fares, so that change also applies to other TOCs involved.

 

[pelli]

If you wanted to rely on just the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Routeing Guide, then I don't think you'd be able to find anything stating what a Travelcard is valid for, so it seems you couldn't justify using it on anything other than a return journey between the origin and London!

The ticket clearly states it is valid for travel in fare zones 1-6....

I believe the ticket will show something like "Between [Origin] and London Zones 1-6", which I guess implies that it should be valid for one (return) journey, following permitted routes according to the Routeing Guide as if it were a point-to-point ticket between [Origin] and any National Rail station within Zones 1-6 of your choice. I don't think it's clear that it would be valid for unlimited travel, or for a journey that doesn't follow a permitted route for some specific destination.

So surely by the same logic a Day Ranger ticket is only valid for a point to point journey?

Travelcards are valid for unlimited travel within London. That is literally the whole point of them.

Obiously I'm not saying that Travelcards are not valid for unlimited travel. What I'm saying is that if you want to argue that the TfL Conditions of Carriage don't apply because they inconveniently state that Off-Peak Travelcards are only valid after 9:30am, and restrict yourselves only to reading the Routeing Guide and the National Rail Conditions of Travel, then you are also giving up the right to use the unlimited travel aspect of the Travelcard, because that's not codified anywhere within those documents, because unlike "Single" or "Return" I don't think "Travelcard" can be treated as having a self-evident meaning (apparently in some places such as Bristol, Chester or Swindon it means a card you load with PAYG balance and/or tickets!). However, as I said, you can instead refer to the National Rail Enquiries website which does state that the Off-Peak Travelcard is valid for unlimited travel from the first Off-Peak train.

Regarding rangers, I would assume that a ticket with "Ranger"/"Rover"/"Rider" in its name is likely meant for some form of unlimited travel, but I would not use it for such without having checked with an official source, as I don't think I'd be able to defend that assumption in court if prosecuted for fare evasion.

 

[cactustwirly]

However, as I said, you can instead refer to the National Rail Enquiries website which does state that the Off-Peak Travelcard is valid for unlimited travel from the first Off-Peak train.

Is the correct answer, the first off peak train is defined by the restriction code on the ticket