Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[jon0844]

Even at their best, too many people found too many ticket offices closed unexpectedly, or refusing to sell them the cheaper tickets they'd identified, or temporally unable to take card payment, or unable to help change a ticket that was bought at a different ticket office because that one is run by Anglia and this one is run by West Anglia or some other excuse that sounds suspiciously like it won't make them any commission.

Meanwhile, regular passengers have season tickets or know how to ask and what their rights are.

So average passengers aren't as unhappy to lose ticket offices and paper tickets as the unions seem to be.

Even TVMs sell split tickets now, and I can't imagine it being very common for a ticket office not to accept cards (even for a small period of time) these days. I assume your experience is quite old?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The first sentence is right - there’s certainly no obligation on a company declaring dividends to give its employees a pay rise.

Sorry but the rest of it is just fundamentally wrong. Dividends can generally be paid from a company’s distributable profits which are determined by accounting practice, irrespective of whether they’re generated from fees paid, or income from other sources.

I don’t think any legislation has been passed to change that position for TOC owning groups who have benefited from ERMAs? Quite the opposite, in fact, the fees paid under the agreements are intended to include an element of profit for the companies operating the TOCs concerned.

(I’m interested here in the company law point, rather than the moral point).

I’m not disagreeing with you on distributable profits but with the TOC revenue and operating costs now effectively being paid for by the DfT, the fee is the only part of the post 2020 TOC monies that can, contractually, be passed on to shareholders. The nature of the TOC has changed to being effectively just a management contract rather than being a pure revenue and/or cost risk one.

There is also a performance related element in addition to the basic management fee and that, contractually, also is allowed to be passed onto shareholders.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sam Tarry (shadow minister) being on the picket line this morning despite being told not to by Kier Starmer.
It will be interesting to see if Starmer sacks him or are the hard left still pulling the strings?

Also on the same picket line this morning was one J Corbyn, chatting away with the RMT leadership. Pretty clear that Tarry had to go.

It does happen to be the busiest day of the week,

for about the umpteenth time, Saturday is not the busiest day of the week. It doesn’t even make the top 5.

It still won't particularly hurt them if they can still make money up with overtime in the rest of the week.

but, there is only a finite amount of overtime available, and not everyone can have it. Also, obviously, there is no overtime available for strikers on strike days, so there is less available to start with. And finally, the overtime is always available at non strike times, and (usually) taken up.

Overall, a TOCs pay bill will be less during a strike, and that can only mean that strikers are losing money In the round.

 

[Leisurefirst]

It's not directly the TOCs' concern - they have all their costs reimbursed by the DfT. However the DfT (or their masters, the Treasury) have already demonstrated their willingness to allow stock to be taken off lease to reduce costs. Sometimes with quite shocking results - e.g. the capacity crunch on the Southern Metro due to the withdrawal of the 455s.


You'd be entitled to either, but your chances of getting reimbursed upon initial contact are close to zero, I'd have thought. You may well have to escalate it to get what you're entitled to.

Thank you for the reply Watershed.
I think I will have to buy a Lumo ticket before they sell out (with the Glasgow to Edinburgh fare it more than doubles my Avanti advance) and either exchange for RTV by day before if in the unlikely event Avanti do have an afternoon service or persue them for the difference.
Interestingly SWR I noticed actually advertised being able to claim back for alternative transport on their site.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’m not disagreeing with you on distributable profits but with the TOC revenue and operating costs now effectively being paid for by the DfT, the fee is the only part of the post 2020 TOC monies that can, contractually, be passed on to shareholders. The nature of the TOC has changed to being effectively just a management contract rather than being a pure revenue and/or cost risk one.

There is also a performance related element in addition to the basic management fee and that, contractually, also is allowed to be passed onto shareholders.

The performance fees are pretty lucrative GTR can earn an additional 23m pa if they deliver on a number of measures none of which are related to the fare box although if they deliver a reliable service than the farebox income ought to increase.

 

[43066]

I don't get your point; ticket office staff just sell what you ask them to sell, which would be the same as from a website. Hardly anyone uses ticket offices these days. I was at York ticket office the other day; it's now tiny and hardly anyone was there. Ten years ago there would have been a big queue.

Generally I can only agree with you.

They can still give good advice, though. In my case I use them buying a priv (they’re not always open when I need them which is another point). However they’re generally friendly and sometimes suggest good solutions such as a ticket from a local station in zone two and combining with tube transfer across London to save a few quid (I have a season from where I live to London terminals).

I guess the point is to encourage people to use other modes such as their cars, buses etc?

No. That really, really isn’t the point. The point is to withdraw labour. *Nobody* working on the railway enjoys the fact people are being inconvenienced.

I’m not disagreeing with you on distributable profits but with the TOC revenue and operating costs now effectively being paid for by the DfT, the fee is the only part of the post 2020 TOC monies that can, contractually, be passed on to shareholders. The nature of the TOC has changed to being effectively jus

I appreciate it’s a boring and esoteric point, but we are disagreeing on the first sentence:

but with the TOC revenue and operating costs now effectively being paid for by the DfT, the fee is the only part of the post 2020 TOC monies that can, contractually, be passed on to shareholders.

I’m afraid that’s factually and legally incorrect.

We can certainly agree on this: TOCs aren’t allowed to give pay rises currently.

Let’s just not pretend that has anything to do with their levels of profits or whether they can declare dividends to their shareholders.

That cuts both ways, the RMT need to study up a bit before criticising “fat cat foreign profits” etc. ROSCOs are arguably fair game for that sort of criticism, not so much TOCs based on their historic profit margins.

 

[yorkie]

No. That really, really isn’t the point. The point is to withdraw labour. *Nobody* working on the railway enjoys the fact people are being inconvenienced.

But what's the point of withdrawing labour? I don't think there actually is an actual aim here (other than hope to annoy the Government enough that they cave in, which isn't likely to happen)

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for the reply Watershed.
I think I will have to buy a Lumo ticket before they sell out (with the Glasgow to Edinburgh fare it more than doubles my Avanti advance) and either exchange for RTV by day before if in the unlikely event Avanti do have an afternoon service or persue them for the difference.
Interestingly SWR I noticed actually advertised being able to claim back for alternative transport on their site.

It's worth noting that you should at least give them an opportunity to re-route you. Only if (when ) they refuse should you do so yourself.

 

[Bald Rick]

*Nobody* working on the railway enjoys the fact people are being inconvenienced.

whilst I wish your statement were true, I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears some people who work for the railway (and on strike) being very pleased that people are being inconvenienced.

It would be more accurate to say that ‘most people’ working on the railway do not enjoy seeing people being inconvenienced.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looking at tomorrow's RTT schedules, it would seem South Western Railway's service reflects typical weekday/Saturday service patterns rather than Sunday, which is much, much better than what was offered on days following the first wave of strikes. Some good(ish) news during this tiresome situation.

whilst I wish your statement were true, I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears some people who work for the railway (and on strike) being very pleased that people are being inconvenienced.

It would be more accurate to say that ‘most people’ working on the railway do not enjoy seeing people being inconvenienced.

Quite. As I referred to earlier in this thread, some of the anti-customer posts on many driver Twitter accounts have been quite hostile.

 

[ashkeba]

Even TVMs sell split tickets now, and I can't imagine it being very common for a ticket office not to accept cards (even for a small period of time) these days. I assume your experience is quite old?

I was describing the past, yes, when ticket offices were better, but many were still not good.

 

[TSG]

A very good offer has been made, one union has set up a ballot of members and one has rejected it outright can you guess which one is which?

If you mean NR members of TSSA and RMT respectively, it's worth understanding they aren't really the same offer because mostly they don't represent the same grades and 'modernisation' is at different stages for different groups. Much of the change affecting grades represented by TSSA has been worked through so the offer is quite simple. I think many in RMT would accept that too, if there weren't strings attached.

NR don't seem clear about exactly what their plans are for some of the grades represented by RMT, and understandably this breeds suspicion. The multitude of T&Cs in maintenance makes this complicated to be fair. It appears some proposals could see many being forced to work more nights and weekends for lower anti social hours premiums though. What's on offer, even leaving inflation aside, really isn't a good offer if that happens. There are engineers I've spoken to that have serious concerns about being able to retain or recruit people on these terms.

 

[Kite159]

It's worth noting that you should at least give them an opportunity to re-route you. Only if (when ) they refuse should you do so yourself.

I suspect if that poster has to wait for Avanti to finally decide "nope" the Lumo tickets would have 'sold' out.

I also suspect Lumo will be extra busy, they might even deploy staff to ensure only those with seat reservations are boarding at Edinburgh, depending what LNER can run

 

[43066]

But what's the point of withdrawing labour? I don't think there actually is an actual aim here (other than hope to annoy the Government enough that they cave in, which isn't likely to happen)

It’s the only thing that can be done.

The calculus has changed somewhat since Johnson went, fully agreed (possibly even to the point where I’d agree all out striking isn’t the best way forward at this juncture - too late now!).

whilst I wish your statement were true, I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears some people who work for the railway (and on strike) being very pleased that people are being inconvenienced.

I’m two TOCs in. I genuinely don’t think I’ve met a single person who takes pleasure in inconveniencing the general public.

We all make jokes along those lines, of course. It’s just that sort of environment. Drivers also make jokes about fatalities etc. Perhaps that’s the kind of thing you’ve heard. Knock about gallows/dark humour, nothing to take too seriously.

I’d say the “overwhelming majority” of staff take no pleasure in this kind of thing.

 

[Davester50]

Quite. As I referred to earlier in this thread, some of the anti-customer posts on many driver Twitter accounts have been quite hostile.

No, you were mostly moaning about the lack of pictures that interested you.
You were quite hostile to their content.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, you were mostly moaning about the lack of pictures that interested you.
You were quite hostile to their content.

Believe me, I don't give a toss about the lack of pictures. I hardly looked at them anyway. It's the way many of them (and I referred to one in particular in the previous post, but he is not alone) speak with such plain hatred and hostility. I used the reference to their nice pictures to show the contrast - the accounts are going from pleasant places to absolute slanging matches. I noticed Richard Clinnick of former RAIL and IRJ senior positions has taken a break from Twitter as a result of also noticing this.

Jesus, I noticed said driver on Twitter quote an MP who was speaking of her recent struggles with death threats, and him seeming to almost insinuate she deserved them for giving drivers a bad name, was what I took from it. Disgusting, and all as a result of wounded pride. That, is hostility. Not me saying how toxic social media has become. I have seen other people comment their disapproval so I can't be alone in thinking this.

 

[Leisurefirst]

I suspect if that poster has to wait for Avanti to finally decide "nope" the Lumo tickets would have 'sold' out.

I also suspect Lumo will be extra busy, they might even deploy staff to ensure only those with seat reservations are boarding at Edinburgh, depending what LNER can run

I think I'll have to buy a Lumo ticket ASAP and refund the day before for a RTV if necessary.
This trip has been over two years in the making, postponed from 2020 & 2021, already added an extra night, I can't justify £140+ for another night at Premier Inn so I need to get back that day (and not until the late afternoon as I have plans for the morning).

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m two TOCs in. I genuinely don’t think I’ve met a single person who takes pleasure in inconveniencing the general public.

We all make jokes along those lines, of course. It’s just that sort of environment. Drivers also make jokes about fatalities etc. Perhaps that’s the kind of thing you’ve heard. Knock about gallows/dark humour, nothing to take too seriously.

oh I know the gallows humour stuff, and do quite a bit of that myself.

But this is not that. It is people - colleagues - who were deliberately doing something in the afternath of the last round of strikes specifically to inconvenience passengers, and were doing it quite happily.

This has to be expected of course. If you get 100 people together in any walk of life there will always be a couple who are complete idiots.

 

[Kite159]

I think I'll have to buy a Lumo ticket ASAP and refund the day before for a RTV if necessary.
This trip has been over two years in the making, postponed from 2020 & 2021, already added an extra night, I can't justify £140+ for another night at Premier Inn so I need to get back that day (and not until the late afternoon as I have plans for the morning).

Either Lumo or look into the cost of flying to an London area airport from Glasgow, as that might be cheaper than Scotrail + Lumo. Depends how much luggage you have.

 

[Davester50]

Believe me, I don't give a toss about the lack of pictures.

I don't.

I hardly looked at them anyway.

So why the wailing?

It's the way many of them (and I referred to one in particular in the previous post, but he is not alone) speak with such plain hatred and hostility. I used the reference to their nice pictures to show the contrast - the accounts are going from pleasant places to absolute slanging matches.

So it was about the pictures.

I noticed Richard Clinnick of former RAIL and IRJ senior positions has taken a break from Twitter as a result of also noticing this.

His prerogative.

Jesus, I noticed said driver on Twitter quote an MP who was speaking of her recent struggles with death threats, and he seemed to as good as tell her she deserved them for giving drivers a bad name, in my opinion. Disgusting, and all as a result of wounded pride. That, is hostility. Not me saying how toxic social media has become. I have seen other people comment their disapproval so I can't be alone in thinking this.

No-one deserves death threats.
No-one also deserves elected representatives lying, and giving misinformation over salaries. The Government has repeatedly lied during this debacle.

 

[Domh245]

I appreciate it’s a boring and esoteric point, but we are disagreeing on the first sentence:


I’m afraid that’s factually and legally incorrect.

Taken from the East Midlands (to pick an example) Rail Contract:

3.1 The Franchisee shall not during any Lock-up Period, do any of the following without the Secretary of State’s consent:
(a) declare or pay any dividend (equity or preference) or make any other distribution including surrendering any taxable losses to any of its Affiliates or pay any of its Affiliates in respect of taxable losses that they wish to surrender to the Franchisee, without the prior written consent of the Secretary of State (in relation to a Permitted Dividend, such consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed and subject to paragraph 3.4);
..

3.2 "Lock-up Period" means the period commencing on the ERMA Start Date and expiring on the date which the Secretary of State confirms by notice in writing to the Franchisee that:
(a) the Secretary of State considers that all the obligations of the Parties to account to each other pursuant to Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments) have been fully performed and discharged (such confirmation not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed);
and
(b) by virtue of such notice, the Lock-Up Period has expired.
No such notice shall constitute a waiver of any rights which the Secretary of State may have under or in respect of Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments).

..

3.4 Subject to the Franchisee fully performing and discharging all its obligations under Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments) and paragraph 9 (Financial Information) of Schedule 11.2 (Management Information) in relation to that Franchisee Year to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State, the consent of the Secretary of State
pursuant to paragraph 3.1(a) and/or 3.1(b) may be sought annually or, in relation to a Franchisee Year of less than 13 Reporting Periods, on the expiry or termination of the relevant Franchisee Year. Any such consent shall be subject to the Parent or such other person acceptable to the Secretary of State entering into an agreement (in form and substance acceptable to the Secretary of State) to pay to the Franchisee, at the Secretary of State's request, the amount (if any) recoverable by the Secretary of State in respect of:
(a) a fully liquidated Contingent SoS Claim; and/or
(b) in respect of an adjustment to the Performance Based Fee and/or the Fixed Fee in accordance with paragraphs 9.13.1 and 15 (Fixed Fee and Performance Based Fee) of Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments), provided in each case that such amount to be paid to the Franchisee by the Parent or other person acceptable to the Secretary of State shall be reduced by a percentage equivalent to the percentage rate of NTR which applied to the corresponding Permitted Dividend payment made in respect of the Performance Based Fee and/or the Fixed Fee.

3.5 For the purposes of this paragraph 3, "Permitted Dividend" means:
details covering 2020/21 snipped..
(b) in relation to any subsequent Franchisee Year, an amount in respect of the Fixed Fee and/or a Performance Based Fee (if and to the extent that a Performance Based Fee has been included in a Franchise Payment paid in accordance with Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments)), in each case calculated in accordance with the following formula:


£PD = FFPBF – (FFPBF x NTR)
where:
£PD means the Permitted Dividend;
FFPBF means for the purposes of this paragraph 3.5 only:
2020/1 snipped..
(b) in relation to any subsequent Franchisee Year, the aggregate amount of the Fixed Fee and the Performance Based Fee (if any) that has been included in any Franchise Payment(s) paid in accordance with Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments)

NTR means the rate of corporation tax (expressed as a percentage) applicable at the time at which the Secretary of State determines the value of the applicable Performance Based Fee (if any) and the Fixed Fee in accordance with Schedule 8.1A (Franchise Payments), provided that:
(a) NTR shall not be adjusted, revalued or otherwise affected by the application of tax losses or any other reliefs to which the Franchisee may be entitled; and
(b) if a Permitted Dividend has been made in accordance with this paragraph 3 and there is a subsequent variation in the rate of corporation tax in the relevant tax year, the Permitted Dividend shall not be recalculated to take account of such variation.

Now, I may be reading it wrong, but that sounds an awful lot to me like Abellio East Midlands are only able to make a very specifically calculated dividend payment, based on their fixed and performance fees with the S.o.S's approval, as Clarence Yard has been saying. There are specific bits covering the EMA and EMRAs that I have taken out of the long form quote but the broad idea is the same.

 

[yorkie]

It’s the only thing that can be done.

I guess if the pay is good enough to be able to take the hit time after time, then it can be kept up indefinitely in theory, but I can't see how the withdrawal of labour is going to achieve anything.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Either Lumo or look into the cost of flying to an London area airport from Glasgow, as that might be cheaper than Scotrail + Lumo. Depends how much luggage you have.

Many thanks.
Will have to be Lumo.
Flights are few from both Glasgow & Edinburgh and more money even not including the onward travel at the London end and normally I have hand luggage but will have a case this time.
Out of interest will ASLEF action affect Avanti more or less than RMT action?

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest will ASLEF action affect Avanti more or less than RMT action?

more.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

This has to be expected of course. If you get 100 people together in any walk of life there will always be a couple who are complete idiots.

That can't be right. By that reckoning there would only be a dozen or so complete idiots in the House of Commons - which we know is not the case.

 

[Leisurefirst]

more.

Yikes, thank you.

 

[Bald Rick]

That can't be right. By that reckoning there would only be a dozen or so complete idiots in the House of Commons - which we know is not the case.

I tend to agree that those who stand for elected office do have a higher propensity for idiocy.

of course, and keeping on topic, this doesn’t just apply to politicians.

 

[Watershed]

Yikes, thank you.

Much more - it's a lot harder to maintain contingent drivers than guards. See LNER this Satuday for an example of what the likely sort of disruption you can expect (at a minimum).

 

[43066]

I guess if the pay is good enough to be able to take the hit time after time, then it can be kept up indefinitely in theory, but I can't see how the withdrawal of labour is going to achieve anything.

I don’t think pay is at all good enough to do that for many RMT members, train cleaners, gate line staff etc. Withdrawal of their labour is the major weapon in their repertoire. Shapps is about to try to take that ability from them.

Come off it. I can’t believe for one second you think that’s a good thing?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Taken from the East Midlands (to pick an example) Rail Contract:



Now, I may be reading it wrong, but that sounds an awful lot to me like Abellio East Midlands are only able to make a very specifically calculated dividend payment, based on their fixed and performance fees with the S.o.S's approval, as Clarence Yard has been saying. There are specific bits covering the EMA and EMRAs that I have taken out of the long form quote but the broad idea is the same.

Thank you. I have to live with this stuff, unfortunately.

But the comment made elsewhere about the amount you can earn in performance fees (and can pass onto your shareholders) is important - that is the only thing that is keeping the private sector interested in taking on this management role.

I was also pointing out in that post that the comments previously made about profits and dividends has no relevance to this dispute. This is where the Unions need to be a bit smarter because even if it all became OLR, the Treasury would have probably budgeted adjusted the DfT & already snaffled the equivalent of those fee payments back into their own funds so the free money available to TOC staff would still be zilch.

Going on about profits and dividends makes it all sound anti-capitalist rather than anti-government. Majoring on the “they are that rubbish, they can’t even offer us a figure, not even even 1%” line is more likely to pull in the sympathy and add to the pressure on the DfT - the loss of industry revenue being by far their biggest worry at the moment. The Treasury have been asking the “where is this all going?” question and the DfT are running out of credible answers.