Standard Livery For Each TOC?

[DarloRich]

I think standard liveries are quite a good idea - lets call them Intercity! lol

Seriously I think it is a good way to keep costs down and establish an identity for the service based not on the operator, which as we know can change frequently, but on the route. Many people in the real world have no idea who runs their trains but it is much easier to recognise a silver line train or a blue line train.

It will be much easier to produce branded maps, literature, signage staff uniforms etc if each route is given a colour scheme that is trailed throughout the brand. Take the network maps which are often displayed in the vestibules of carriages. They could be a sort of underground style map for the railway network. I have seen a similar idea created for posters at stations telling passengers who runs what and where.

I would then have a defined area on each train for the franchisee to display their name and logo, say a rectangle next to the doors or a body side stripe in a contrasting colour to the base colour.

I would also suggest that if a company owns more than one franchise they display the parent company logo on their "definition area" so people know who owns which company.

That should mean that a re-spray should only be needed when a unit is transferred to a different TOC. A Change of franchisee should just mean a new white sticker over the old operator and a new logo transfer.

 

[Zoe]

That's how it's done in some other European countries. The difference there though is that the "franchises" are simply contracts to operate the trains and not set train frequencies or fares.

 

[starrymarkb]

That wouldn't save very much at all!

Trains are repainted on a regular cycle - if a TOC changes then apart from a couple of trains vinyled for the launch, nothing is repainted until it is next due for the scheduled repaint. That's why it takes ages for transferred stock to be repainted!

And before you say about design fees, how much does Ray Steynning charge? given that his services are affordable by even small companies like Velvet I'd say there wouldn't be much saved there.

Things like the Scotrail rebrand are for political rather then financial reasons
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That's how it's done in some other European countries. The difference there though is that the "franchises" are simply contracts to operate the trains and not set train frequencies or fares.

But in others, Germany and Holland for example it's possible to see Veolia, Arriva and Abellio livered stock on their concessions. There is also no through ticketing...

Mind you in Spain there is no through ticketing at all!

 

[silentone]

Design fee's may or may not be much but it's the public perception that money was wasted creating a design for something that already had a working design they knew.

The 'nothing is repainted until due' is also not true, for example National Express sent all of the HST's for a re-paint into their new livery despite some of them having just returned from refurb and painted into a non-branded GNER livery. The MK4's didn't get a repaint because they weren't allowed to strip the paint currently on them without invalidating the warranty or NX would have repainted them. The MK4's are now due a repaint.

 

[Tom B]

It's a little wasteful, is it not, to come out with a load of custom designs every time a new TOC launches, even if they are only repainted to schedule (and, in any case, it does look a bit naff when you get a random collection of liveries). Not just stock liveries, but stations, staff uniforms, publicity etc.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

can't beat good ol BR Blue lol

 

[Zoe]

can't beat good ol BR Blue lol

I quite like it but it wasn't even able to survive through to the end of BR.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I quite like it but it wasn't even able to survive through to the end of BR.

very true but at least it brought everything together for a time

 

[jopsuk]

There's not been many re-franchisings where the franchise map hasn't been redrawn somewhat.

 

[Oswyntail]

As I have ranted before, I believe standard liveries are good from a customer point of view. Local - inter-urban - long distance, or some such. Nothing to stop an "operated by Noddy" vinyl. That way you have a fairly good chance of not getting your trains confused at busy stations.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There is a rumour going around my TOC that whoever does win the next franchise will still have to use the "Northern" branding, hopefully if that is true its a start.

 

[Zoe]

There is a rumour going around my TOC that whoever does win the next franchise will still have to use the "Northern" branding, hopefully if that is true its a start.

But they could still put "First" in front of it if they wanted?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But they could still put "First" in front of it if they wanted?

God I hope not lol I started With First North Western lol

 

[me123]

I think standard liveries are quite a good idea - lets call them Intercity! lol

Seriously I think it is a good way to keep costs down and establish an identity for the service based not on the operator, which as we know can change frequently, but on the route. Many people in the real world have no idea who runs their trains but it is much easier to recognise a silver line train or a blue line train.

If you're meaning what's currently happening in Scotland (ie, go for the Scotrail brand and keep it as that regardless of who wins the next franchise), then I'm fully supportive of the idea.

It saves a lot of money rebranding the trains, stations and just about everything else every few years when a franchise ends. It maintains continuity between franchises (which is very useful if there are no changes in the franchise itself). Passengers will know what to look for at the station, rather than the mess that we've got at the moment with trains in every colour under the sun. And, if it's done gradually as and when the stock needs repainting, it won't cost all that much at first.

If course, there will always be a political element to this. Some people call the Scotrail brand "nationalisism by stealth" (which is laughable given that Labour were planning to do it anyway...). There will be many who would see this as "nationalisation by stealth", most likely the TOCs themselves. Indeed, there's always rumours up here that the next step for Scotland's Railways is nationalisation, or at least being operated by the government. Many opponents of renationalisation would likely not be happy with such a proposal.

 

[sprinterguy]

Standard liveries for each rail franchise would be a positive move for the railways and help to alleviate any confusion amongst passengers on a rail network that sees an ever changing array of liveries through the merry-go-round of refranchising. A standard brand is a good thing to have, and the move towards longer franchises will also help this process. It will also help to reduce the untidy appearance of mixed livery train formations and new operator branding plastered over the remnants of the old operators livery, which can only be a good thing.

However, it won’t remove the need to develop a new livery each time the franchise map is redrawn, which it frequently is: For instance, the split of Central Trains into EMT and London Midland would have required the development of at least one new livery if standard schemes had been adopted at that time. Another point to consider would be whether there should be some differentiation in the liveries carried by Intercity and local trains operated within a single franchise, as with FGW: Use a standard set of house colours, but with different arrangements.

I do hope though that a lot of thought is put into any standard colour schemes, as we are likely to be stuck with the liveries for much longer than the current operator specific colour schemes: Though of course, what looks “good” is subject to personal preference. I think the new “Scotland’s Railways” Saltire livery is excellent, and if the current Northern livery was to be retained in the future then that would be good news. However I think the new East Coast standard scheme is somewhat lacking.

 

[Zoe]

Indeed, there's always rumours up here that the next step for Scotland's Railways is nationalisation

I don't think the Scottish government could just decide to renationalize. I believe the structure of the railways is dictated by the Railways Act 1993 so the franchise would need to run. I heard that tfl were not allowed to directly run the London Overground due to this and the service had to be contracted out.

 

[northwichcat]

Trains are repainted on a regular cycle - if a TOC changes then apart from a couple of trains vinyled for the launch, nothing is repainted until it is next due for the scheduled repaint. That's why it takes ages for transferred stock to be repainted!

True that they'll have to be repainted anyway but you get trains painted in experimental liveries at the start of franchises, which then get repainted again before they need a repaint because the livery doesn't match what the operator picks as the standard livery. Examples: ATW's 175 'ghost' livery and Northern's 156 white and purple livery.

 

[sprinterguy]

But they could still put "First" in front of it if they wanted?

I think we’d see the current “Northern” branding followed by smaller “A First Group company” underscore beneath the main brand, as is currently seen with the current operators’ title (Or wording to that effect) on at least one Northern 142 .

 

[rail-britain]

I think standard liveries are quite a good idea - establish an identity for the service based not on the operator, which as we know can change frequently, but on the route

I would then have a defined area on each train for the franchisee to display their name and logo, say a rectangle next to the doors or a body side stripe in a contrasting colour to the base colour

This policy is now being applied to all new franchises
Cross Country was the first
East Coast is next
The East Anglia / c2c then follows
Then comes West Coast

This is expected to present an issue, as Virgin Trains have a right to display their logos in a prominent location on the rolling stock used within that franchise (unless losing that franchise)
However, it is expected they may agree to remove the current logos in favour of the smaller logos which would be applied at each external door

Equally, this only applies to the real trains
The train operator can still emphasis their company name on any promotional, artistic work, etc
First ScotRail already do this!

 

[sprinterguy]

True that they'll have to be repainted anyway but you get trains painted in experimental liveries at the start of franchises, which then get repainted again before they need a repaint because the livery doesn't match what the operator picks as the standard livery. Examples: ATW's 175 'ghost' livery and Northern's 156 white and purple livery.

Yeah, settling on one scheme to run throughout successive franchises removes the possibility of money wasting experimental liveries. Northern got through three evolutions of livery on it's 156s and one change of styling before eventually settling on a final design...

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think the Scottish government could just decide to renationalize. I believe the structure of the railways is dictated by the Railways Act 1993 so the franchise would need to run. I heard that tfl were not allowed to directly run the London Overground due to this and the service had to be contracted out.

But surely as transport is devolved in Scotland, the Scottish government can do what it likes when it expires?

 

[Zoe]

But surely as transport is devolved in Scotland, the Scottish government can do what it likes when it expires?

Would be interesting to see them try and take the infrastructure off Network Rail. Westminster could still pass an act of parliamnet to remove that power if they have it. The Scottish Parliament also don't have full control over transport, for example they can't set a speed limit higher than 70 mph on any road.

 

[Failed Unit]

Would be interesting to see them try and take the infrastructure off Network Rail. Westminster could still pass an act of parliamnet to remove that power if they have it.

I was just mean don't relet scotrail and run the franchise in house.

As for setting their own speed limits. It is coming soon!

 

[Zoe]

As for setting their own speed limits. It is coming soon!

Sorry but only Westminster have that power.

 

[At_traction]

This is expected to present an issue, as Virgin Trains have a right to display their logos in a prominent location on the rolling stock used within that franchise (unless losing that franchise)
However, it is expected they may agree to remove the current logos in favour of the smaller logos which would be applied at each external door !

If a "region"-based division is carried out as per ECML/XC, then the livery is likely to be redesigned too, to a more generalized franchise image. In that case I doubt that Virgin, should they win, would have too many qualms about lessened corporate visibility, especially if a remodelling will be carried out related to the new WCML bidding in 2012. Until that, of course, they've bid based on prominent presentation of the Virgin logo and colouring on the units and expect to be able to carry that out to the end of the current contract.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry but only Westminster have that power.

Do some more research on that! Have a look at what was proposed at the last election! You will get a surprise. If Alex gets his way we will be doing 80mph on the m74 by Christmas.

 

[Zoe]

Do some more research on that! Have a look at what was proposed at the last election! You will get a surprise. If Alex gets his way we will be doing 80mph on the m74 by Christmas.

I doubt that would be in line with national CO2 policies though.

 

[Mark_re]

There is of course the danger that enforced standard liveries for franchises may make them less attractive to potential bidders, given that they might perceive greater difficulty in marketing their routes or differential product offerings. This could, in turn, reduce bid values. The shortfall would naturally have to be picked up by the fare paying passenger given the railway funding Zeitgeist.

 

[me123]

I don't think the Scottish government could just decide to renationalize. I believe the structure of the railways is dictated by the Railways Act 1993 so the franchise would need to run. I heard that tfl were not allowed to directly run the London Overground due to this and the service had to be contracted out.

It would need to wait until the end of the First Scotrail franchise, certainly, but beyond that there's nothing to stop them nationalising Scotrail. With an election coming up in a few months, I fully expect both Labour and the SNP to promise nationalising it.

But surely as transport is devolved in Scotland, the Scottish government can do what it likes when it expires?

Exactly.

Would be interesting to see them try and take the infrastructure off Network Rail. Westminster could still pass an act of parliamnet to remove that power if they have it. The Scottish Parliament also don't have full control over transport, for example they can't set a speed limit higher than 70 mph on any road.

I don't think they would be able to gain control over the track. Not easily anyway. But getting the passenger service into public ownership would be a piece of cake when First's franchise is up.

As for the speed limits, I believe we are to get control over it, although I doubt the policy would see much use. It would allow us to set the National Speed Limit (which means we can raise it as well as lower it). Perhaps we would see higher speed limits on some roads; although I don't generally support increasing speed limits, I do think that 80mph on the M74/A74(M) would be a good idea.

 

[Zoe]

It would need to wait until the end of the First Scotrail franchise, certainly, but beyond that there's nothing to stop them nationalising Scotrail. With an election coming up in a few months, I fully expect both Labour and the SNP to promise nationalising it.

I believe the Scotrail franchise would legally still have to exist but it could of course just be operated by the Scottish government. This does give us the question of why Ken Livingstone's tfl were unable to do the same with the London Overground.