Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Bantamzen]

One thing occurred to me reading those Truss proposals. What if instead of a national rail strike there was a indefinite national work to rule instead.

Would a service level of 70% be met if across the board nobody worked any overtime or showed any flexibility or goodwill?

Imagine the incredulity of the telegraph or the mail that workers aren’t doing not in their contracts which helps the industry to operate

The way things are going on the network at the moment, working to rule might actually be an improvement...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One thing occurred to me reading those Truss proposals. What if instead of a national rail strike there was a indefinite national work to rule instead.

Would a service level of 70% be met if across the board nobody worked any overtime or showed any flexibility or goodwill?

Imagine the incredulity of the telegraph or the mail that workers aren’t doing not in their contracts which helps the industry to operate

That would bring about a full recast of the exact operational and working conditions that are required to run a national organisation efficiently if that was the case.

Can you imagine the Armed Forces being run in such a haphazard manner?

 

[Lancy99]

The way things are going on the network at the moment, working to rule might actually be an improvement...

Thats why TPE are in such a pickle at the min.

 

[Bantamzen]

Thats why TPE are in such a pickle at the min.

Note the winky smilie in my comment, implying some humour...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I could see from the TI web site, the statutory service is an hourly stopper on many lines, and no fast long-distance trains.

Also for limited hours (no weekends I think).

 

[Tetchytyke]

The issue is that costs have risen significantly faster than revenues for many years now, and that is the stick with which the government will beat the industry.

The real question is why costs have risen faster than revenues for so long- even before Covid this was the case.

It is unlikely to come as a shock that I believe the problems are at the top of the food chain. There's rampant profiteering throughout the industry, especially in engineering subcontracting, and the "bailouts" during Covid went to the TOCs' shareholders and Directors and not the staff.

The profit margins in the industry are very high when you consider there is next to no capital risk for private companies, and next to no management responsibility as DfT micro-manage everything anyway. The margins on the management contracts are essentially free money.

Much as I disagree with the RMT on pretty much everything, they do have a point when they question why the lowest paid are expected to fund the government's largesse to the fat cats.

PS The CEO of NR was on ITV this morning, and it was a complete car wreck of an interview. If that's the calibre of management, I worry for the industry.

 

[dk1]

"This is politcs"......

<starts slow clapping>

Finally people in the rail industry are starting to get it. Of course its politics, its politicians and their administration that are currently calling the shots. And they are calling the shots because the private sector is dumping the franchise system as quick as they can, as private investors see a giant money pit opening up in front of them. So the government has had to step in and pump more subsidy and even form their own companies to bail the industry out (and make no mistake this is exactly what is happening), and add to that the extra £18 billion (if I recall correctly) put into to the industry during covid measures to prevent widescale furloughing of staff & even job losses. RMT's response to that? Inflation matching (or close to) wage demands plus few if any changes to T&Cs, or else! What the heck did they or their membership expect?

From what I recall it was only £16bn. I should remember as he bangs on about it enough

 

[yorksrob]

I'm tired of hearing about the 18bn. This was the government's decision.

 

[43066]

If that's the calibre of management, I worry for the industry.

It goes beyond management and includes many people in non operational jobs who are institutionalised and would be completely incapable of functioning outside the industry - a little like what people say about some teachers. Ironically the operational grades seem to have a far broader range of people doing them these days.

From what I recall it was only £16bn. I should remember as he bangs on about it enough

It also certainly wasn’t “put into the industry … to prevent widespread furloughing of staff” as the previous poster stated.

It’s a bit like saying “annual increases to the NHS budget are to fund the pay of greedy doctors and nurses”…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

I'm tired of hearing about the 18bn. This was the government's decision.

Absolutely.

 

[dk1]

I'm tired of hearing about the 18bn. This was the government's decision.

Where did the other £2bn suddenly come from? Perhaps Grant is siphoning some across to make the furlough bill look better & help his crusade.

 

[KM1991]

I'm tired of hearing about the 18bn. This was the government's decision.

Yep. The government decided to lock everyone up in their homes, not rail workers.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is unlikely to come as a shock that I believe the problems are at the top of the food chain. There's rampant profiteering throughout the industry, especially in engineering subcontracting, and the "bailouts" during Covid went to the TOCs' shareholders and Directors and not the staff.

Yes, absolutely. This in fact is true of all the bailouts, including furlough. The Bank of England "printed" extra money which the government borrowed to bailout businesses, while sustaining workers on 80% of their normal income. Now the government has to pay back that loan. Instead of doing it through taxation on those corporations that benefitted the most it's instead hammering ordinary people, including those who took a 20% drop in income when on furlough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

The profit margins in the industry are very high when you consider there is next to no capital risk for private companies, and next to no management responsibility as DfT micro-manage everything anyway. The margins on the management contracts are essentially free money.

Yes, excellent point. While the margins look comparatively low they're zero risk as you say.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2022 ==

PS The CEO of NR was on ITV this morning, and it was a complete car wreck of an interview. If that's the calibre of management, I worry for the industry.

And he's supposed to be one of the most respected people in the industry.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Wasn't the £16bn put in because the Government had essentially started to enact parts of the Civil Contingencies Act to ensure essential running services as a response to COVID lockdowns? This wasn't the Government being generous about handing over money especially to the railways out of kindness. The law of the land required it. The £16bn they keep getting quoted is a write off they had to do regardless by law. It's a red herring and it's embarrassing to see government officials use it as a stick to beat the railways with, because its a nonsense argument. They were putting that money in anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yep. The government decided to lock everyone up in their homes, not rail workers.

But not as stringently as the Chinese government did to the general population of Wuhan province.

 

[yorksrob]

Either way, it has no bearing on my needs as a passenger now, and it doesn't endear the government's cuts agenda to me.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm tired of hearing about the 18bn. This was the government's decision.

It was, and now they are looking for some savings or productivity back.

It also certainly wasn’t “put into the industry … to prevent widespread furloughing of staff” as the previous poster stated.

It’s a bit like saying “annual increases to the NHS budget are to fund the pay of greedy doctors and nurses”…

But what would have happened if the £16 billion (corrected from my previous recollection) hadn't gone in? Would the TOCs just shrugged their shoulders and taken the financial hit? Or perhaps would they have taken one look at the staff & shouted "furlough!", as for example they did in aviation? Serious question.

Remember you're the one yearning to be yoinked out of the public sector label, but as yet there seems to be no debate on how to convince private investors back in having chucked in multiple franchise towels. Covid may have accelerated this crisis, but it seems to me it was always going to happen sooner or later.

Wasn't the £16bn put in because the Government had essentially started to enact parts of the Civil Contingencies Act to ensure essential running services as a response to COVID lockdowns? This wasn't the Government being generous about handing over money especially to the railways out of kindness. The law of the land required it. The £16bn they keep getting quoted is a write off they had to do regardless by law. It's a red herring and it's embarrassing to see government officials use it as a stick to beat the railways with, because its a nonsense argument. They were putting that money in anyway.

I honestly couldn't comment on that, however my question above still stands. Would the TOCs have taken the hit without the money? With such a potential revenue hit during the height of restrictions, I can't imagine investors being happy about that. And let's cut to the chase here, they are really the ones calling the shots in the remaining franchises.

 

[43066]

But what would have happened if the £16 billion (corrected from my previous recollection) hadn't gone in? Would the TOCs just shrugged their shoulders and taken the financial hit? Or perhaps would they have taken one look at the staff & shouted "furlough!", as for example they did in aviation? Serious question.

Well yes, obviously, but that’s completely incidental to the bail out arrangements. The point is the reason the industry was bailed out *was not* to benefit the staff in any way and it’s utterly disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Not that hard to understand, surely?

Remember you're the one yearning to be yoinked out of the public sector label, but as yet there seems to be no debate on how to convince private investors back in having chucked in multiple franchise towels. Covid may have accelerated this crisis, but it seems to me it was always going to happen sooner or later.

The true “private investors” ie freight and open access are still there. Franchising as a model was already largely broken, franchises failed prior to Covid due to being predicate on inaccurate (by the DfT) revenue forecasts. Again, not the fault of the staff…

 

[Shrop]

I wonder who today's strikes are really hurting. Government and the press are so wrapped up in the Tory Leadership battle that passenger inconvenience gets little attention, and that's before we even start on the Thatcherite Tory view that passengers using public transport are only second class citizens anyway.

Meanwhile, here in Shropshire and elsewhere we have Transport for Wales staff not on strike and therefore presumably receiving full pay as normal, for not providing any services. They can't, because the signalmen are on strike. This must be costing the industry a lot of money, and the strikes therefore serve only to damage the long term future of the railways, whilst not really hurting hurting the Government. Are we seeing the industry simply shooting itself in the foot? And if the aim is to hurt rail management, will their personnel really care when all they do is run off into jobs in other industries when the going gets tough for them? There's something sad and self-destructive about the way this is happening.

 

[43066]

we have Transport for Wales staff not on strike and therefore presumably receiving full pay as normal, for not providing any services.

Shock horror: rail staff who aren’t on strike get paid for being at work! How outrageous, you’d better get the Daily Mail on the case.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Shock horror: rail staff who aren’t on strike get paid for being at work! How outrageous, you’d better get the Daily Mail on the case.

Would the Socialist Worker have a different editorial view?

 

[Bluejays]

PS The CEO of NR was on ITV this morning, and it was a complete car wreck of an interview. If that's the calibre of management, I worry for the inindustry.

That old g*t is nothing more than a boardroom del boy. Had to chase him away from the food trolley for trying to talk/cajole the catering staff into giving him sellable items he's not entitled too. He's like a scalded cat when he realises you're onto him. Pathetic really for a fella on hundreds of grand a year.



Just realised you said ceo not chairman. Ive never met the ceo

 

[KJCross1983]

Passenger Service Managing Director of the DfT Mr Peter Wilkinson who is on £165K (+ expenses on top), has gone publicly quiet lately ? Must be pulling Mr Shapps strings, like he did with Mr Grayling.

 

[mpthomson]

Yes, given how relatively poor Truss may well turn out to be as the new Prime Minister, wouldn't it be highly likely that she would be looking for quick hits that would be highly popular with voters?

It's not 'normal' voters she's wooing with this, this is aimed squarely at the Conservative party membership who vote in the leadership elections. Not that I disagree with most of it.

 

[gazzaa2]

"This is politcs"......

<starts slow clapping>

Finally people in the rail industry are starting to get it. Of course its politics, its politicians and their administration that are currently calling the shots. And they are calling the shots because the private sector is dumping the franchise system as quick as they can, as private investors see a giant money pit opening up in front of them. So the government has had to step in and pump more subsidy and even form their own companies to bail the industry out (and make no mistake this is exactly what is happening), and add to that the extra £18 billion (if I recall correctly) put into to the industry during covid measures to prevent widescale furloughing of staff & even job losses. RMT's response to that? Inflation matching (or close to) wage demands plus few if any changes to T&Cs, or else! What the heck did they or their membership expect?

Of course as we've seen this has been compounded by Boris being finally toppled and a leadership battle narrowed down to two determined, strong willed, and frankly ruthless candidates, both desperate for a target to go after to gain votes from their party. Oh look, the RMT have painted big targets on all the industry's backs because they daftly thought that they could stare down what they thought was a weak government. And whilst they were partly right in so much that the PM was on his last legs, being two years away from a general election means that the Tories have probably got the leadership challenge abut right because it gives them plenty of room to regroup from the Autumn. And that's when they might just come after your industry. Folk like me have been warning about what risks might lie ahead by taking on this fight right now, but have been shouted down by rail workers telling us we don't know anything about the industry. But you don't need to know anything about it, you just need to observe politics & what's happened to other unions down the years.

So yes, this is political. And as I've said to others in the industry, if you don't want it to be political then you as an industry need to find a way to woo back private investors & make them money. Simple right?

It's become a leadership election issue for the Tories and now they're going more hardline. It'll be even more difficult to settle.

 

[Starmill]

Passenger Service Managing Director of the DfT Mr Peter Wilkinson who is on £165K (+ expenses on top), has gone publicly quiet lately ? Must be pulling Mr Shapps strings, like he did with Mr Grayling.

It's not normal for mid level civil servants to have any public profile.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well yes, obviously, but that’s completely incidental to the bail out arrangements. The point is the reason the industry was bailed out *was not* to benefit the staff in any way and it’s utterly disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Not that hard to understand, surely?

Nice dodge there! Still doesn't answer the fundamental question of what the TOCs would have done without the extra investment of money though. You saw the response elsewhere in the private sector, staff were sent home & told to contact HMRC.

The true “private investors” ie freight and open access are still there. Franchising as a model was already largely broken, franchises failed prior to Covid due to being predicate on inaccurate (by the DfT) revenue forecasts. Again, not the fault of the staff…

Neither of which is exactly the mainstay of the network. I totally agree though that the franchising model is totally broken, if it was ever not broken. As for blame, well ultimately there will some found in all quarters of the industry, I'm sure there is plenty of dead wood in management and out there in the mess rooms. And before you say it, yes the same is true of the public sector, very, very true!

I wonder who today's strikes are really hurting. Government and the press are so wrapped up in the Tory Leadership battle that passenger inconvenience gets little attention, and that's before we even start on the Thatcherite Tory view that passengers using public transport are only second class citizens anyway.

Joe The Public. But we are bottom of everyone's priorities, government, unions, staff....

It's become a leadership election issue for the Tories and now they're going more hardline. It'll be even more difficult to settle.

It is indeed, which was something that some of us warned about. The Tories like a good scuffle with unions to summon the hardcore to the ballot box, with some of the hardcore ironically being the ones scuffling with them it seems from these threads.

 

[Carlisle]

Shock horror: rail staff who aren’t on strike get paid for being at work!

That’s completely incorrect, some contractors will be insisting their staff take annual leave or move rest days,. Not everyone automatically gets paid to sit around doing nothing, get sent home or be paid to stay home, as I suspect happens at your TOC when your not striking but others are.

 

[43066]

Nice dodge there! Still doesn't answer the fundamental question of what the TOCs would have done without the extra investment of money though. You saw the response elsewhere in the private sector, staff were sent home & told to contact HMRC.

It’s not a dodge at all. You’re still missing the point. Your statement upthread that the bail out to the industry was to protect jobs is factually incorrect. It was to keep an essential service going - they would happily have seen rail staff sacked/furloughed if that had been operationally possible.

Maybe you should be made to take a pay cut to show your gratitude for the fact the civil service was funded throughout the pandemic? That’s effectively what people seem to be asking of railstaff.

That’s completely incorrect, some contractors will be insisting their staff take annual leave or move rest days, not everyone gets to sit around doing nothing as I suspect happens at your TOC when your not striking but others are.

Well then they’re not at work are they!

If I’m actually at work (often at stupid o clock) I’m not “sitting around doing nothing” - can I ask how often you go to work at 0400 in the morning?

People who are at work can legitimately expect to get paid. It seems some posters on here want slavery introduced…

 

[Shrop]

Shock horror: rail staff who aren’t on strike get paid for being at work! How outrageous, you’d better get the Daily Mail on the case.

That's an odd reaction! I have no problem with TfW staff being paid, that wasn't my point at all!

 

[43066]

That's an odd reaction! I have no problem with TfW staff being paid, that wasn't my point at all!

You did say “presumably receiving full pay as normal”, as if you weren’t quite sure whether they would be!