Is this alternative route valid?

[AM9]

I am planning to travel to York from St Albans on 17th September, the original (somewhat obvious to me) route was to use TL form St Albans (SAC) to St Pancras (STP), then LNER fro Kings Cross (KGX) to York (YRK). Both the LNER and TL journey planners include a RR bus journey from (SAC) to Potters Bar (PBR) then use a TL GN branch service to KGX. I don't relish the idea of gettin a cab to catch a bus then a train so my preferred fix would be to travelby cab direct to the nearest station to get a KGX train, i.e. Hatfield (HAT). The prblem is that I cannot get a definitive answer as to whether my ticket (an Any Permitted Super Off-Peak) will be accepted from Hatfield rather than the inconvenient route offered using PBR. As it is on a different line, it isn't the same as starting short, and I presume the routing guide doesn't accommodate such a deviation from itinerary.
An equivalent ticket from HAT to YRK is about £3 less that from SAC. Can anybody give me any advice as to whether that is likely to be a compliant plan with those tickets?

TIA

 

[JB_B]

Assuming you hold the super off peak return (+any permitted: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SAC&dest=YRK&ldn=1&tkt=SSR or a railcard discounted equivalent ) then there's no problem starting your outbound journey at Hatfield as break-of journey is allowed and Hatfield is on one of the permitted routes from St Albans City - London - York.

Your ticket might not work the barriers at Hatfield but staff should let you through.

 

[AM9]

Assuming you hold the super off peak return (+any permitted: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SAC&dest=YRK&ldn=1&tkt=SSR or a railcard discounted equivalent ) then there's no problem starting your outbound journey at Hatfield as break-of journey is allowed and Hatfield is on one of the permitted routes from St Albans City - London - York.

Your ticket might not work the barriers at Hatfield but staff should let you through.

Thanks for the prompt reply.
I appreciate the italicised 'should'.
I'm a bit rusty on Yorkie's teach-in on ticketing and I can't find the routing tables to work this one out.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the prompt reply.
I appreciate the italicised 'should'.
I'm a bit rusty on Yorkie's teach-in on ticketing and I can't find the routing tables to work this one out.

The fact it has a Maltese cross is your indicator that it is (and is intended to be) valid via London. Hence it is valid to start 'late' at Hatfield.

 

[AM9]

The fact it has a Maltese cross is your indicator that it is (and is intended to be) valid via London. Hence it is valid to start 'late' at Hatfield.

I understand that but Hatfield is on a different line than St Albans. Would it (an SAC SSR) be valid on (say) Broxbourne, Shenfield, Sevenoaks, Woking, etc.? They are all the same price or slightly less than from St Albans.

 

[RT4038]

But isn't the OPs intended journey Hatfield - King's Cross - York? Surely the OP is only travelling St Albans (bus) - Potters Bar-King's Cross - York because of the RRB due to engineering work between St Albans & St Pancras? How would that confer rights for a Hatfield-Kings Cross-York journey? Surely from Hatfield the trip should be going North, not via London?

 

[Watershed]

I understand that but Hatfield is on a different line than St Albans. Would it (an SAC SSR) be valid on (say) Broxbourne, Shenfield, Sevenoaks, Woking, etc.? They are all the same price or slightly less than from St Albans.

It's not to do with the price - the price of other fares is (almost) never a relevant consideration. It's to do with the fact that SAC-STP-KGX-YRK is a permitted route for SAC-YRK (indeed the most obvious one), so there's no problem starting late at HAT.

Alternative valid routes include taking the West Anglia lines via Broxbourne and then Cambridge, but not via Shenfield, Sevenoaks or Woking.

But isn't the OPs intended journey Hatfield - King's Cross - York? Surely the OP is only travelling St Albans (bus) - Potters Bar-King's Cross - York because of the RRB due to engineering work between St Albans & St Pancras? How would that confer rights for a Hatfield-Kings Cross-York journey? Surely from Hatfield the trip should be going North, not via London?

Ah, that's different. I was assuming the OP would be doing Hatfield-Stevenage/Peterborough-York. Hatfield-Kings Cross-York would require e.g. a Hatfield-York +Any Permitted ticket.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The ticket is valid from Hatfield but surely only northbound. Thameslink often use a bus to the other line e.g. between Luton and Hitchin when engineering closes one line, creating a special case where sometimes a route becomes valid, e.g. Cambridge to Sheffield via Hitchin and Luton. But it's on their terms to enable specific RR journeys only.

If there are arrangements in place to bus to PBR and only PBR, and you can get an itinerary SAC-PBR-KGX-YRK then, if it was me, what I would do is board a southbound local service with a single HAT-PBR (£4.30) and remain on the train on your main SAC-YRK ticket. No doubt about validity southbound from PBR.

It seems quite a faff to go Hatfield - London - York anyway, is Hatfield - Stevenage/Peterborough - York not an easier connection?

 

[JB_B]

I am planning to travel to York from St Albans on 17th September, the original (somewhat obvious to me) route was to use TL form St Albans (SAC) to St Pancras (STP), then LNER fro Kings Cross (KGX) to York (YRK). Both the LNER and TL journey planners include a RR bus journey from (SAC) to Potters Bar (PBR) then use a TL GN branch service to KGX. I don't relish the idea of gettin a cab to catch a bus then a train so my preferred fix would be to travelby cab direct to the nearest station to get a KGX train, i.e. Hatfield (HAT). The prblem is that I cannot get a definitive answer as to whether my ticket (an Any Permitted Super Off-Peak) will be accepted from Hatfield rather than the inconvenient route offered using PBR. As it is on a different line, it isn't the same as starting short, and I presume the routing guide doesn't accommodate such a deviation from itinerary.
An equivalent ticket from HAT to YRK is about £3 less that from SAC. Can anybody give me any advice as to whether that is likely to be a compliant plan with those tickets?

TIA

Apologies, I misread your intention as heading north from Hatfield.

The ticket is valid from Hatfield but surely only northbound. Thamelink often use a bus to the other line e.g. between Luton and Hitchin when engineering closes one line, creating a special case where sometimes a route becomes valid, e.g. Cambridge to Sheffield via Hitchin and Luton. But it's on their terms to enable specific RR journeys only.

If there are arrangements in place to bus to PBR and only PBR, and you can get an itinerary SAC-PBR-KGX-YRK then, if it was me, what I would do is board a southbound local service with a single HAT-PBR (£4.30) and remain on the train on your main SAC-YRK ticket. No doubt about validity southbound from PBR.

It seems quite a faff to go Hatfield - London - York anyway, is Hatfield - Stevenage/Peterborough - York not an easier connection?

Indeed.

 

[AM9]

The ticket is valid from Hatfield but surely only northbound. Thamelink often use a bus to the other line e.g. between Luton and Hitchin when engineering closes one line, creating a special case where sometimes a route becomes valid, e.g. Cambridge to Sheffield via Hitchin and Luton. But it's on their terms to enable specific RR journeys only.

If there are arrangements in place to bus to PBR and only PBR, and you can get an itinerary SAC-PBR-KGX-YRK then, if it was me, what I would do is board a southbound local service with a single HAT-PBR (£4.30) and remain on the train on your main SAC-YRK ticket. No doubt about validity southbound from PBR.

Strictly speaking yes you are right, only a published itinerary is guaranteed and of course the journey planners are set up to match the RR arrangement planned. However, the principle of my wish to use Hatfield as the entry point of the journey is that the bus journey would add over 40 minutes to the total duration, (presuming no road traffic issues), and for my part that could be minimised by extending my taxi journey from home to SAC to go direct to Hatfield, - probably less than 5 minute difference but obviously at my own additionall cost.
Hatfield of often used as a diversion station when there are issues on the MML, and the fare HAT-KGX is slightly cheaper than SAC-STP in every walk-up fare that I can find, as well as being set and served by the same TOC, (Thameslink), - so it is hardly likely that I have planned this to enable an open-jaw itinerary at less than the book price.
I would have thought that TOCs would try to accommodate such a move to minimise their customer's inconvenience, even though in this instance, the root cause of the disruption is (I presume) the ongoing work of upgrading the OLE on the MML south of Bedford.

It seems quite a faff to go Hatfield - London - York anyway, is Hatfield - Stevenage/Peterborough - York not an easier connection?

My journey is St Albans to York so going north isn't a viable option. I will only go on GN/TL services south to KGX of the outbound leg because there is no service south from SAC, - but the will be on the return journey.

 

[Deerfold]

My journey is St Albans to York so going north isn't a viable option. I will only go on GN/TL services south to KGX of the outbound leg because there is no service south from SAC, - but the will be on the return journey.

From Hatfield, many of the fastest journeys involve starting by going North. However, they require two changes, rather than the one obtained by travelling South. I wouldn't say that doesn't make them a viable option.

 

[Hadders]

If the OP is going to York, wouldn't it just be better to head for Stevenage (either in a cab from St Albans or train via Hatfield) and catch a northbound LNER train from there. Must be faster than doubling back from Hatfield to Kings Cross.

 

[AM9]

From Hatfield, many of the fastest journeys involve starting by going North. However, they require two changes, rather than the one obtained by travelling South. I wouldn't say that doesn't make them a viable option.

True, but I will enjoy the ride that way as I haven't been on the WCML since GNER days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2022 ==

If the OP is going to York, wouldn't it just be better to head for Stevenage (either in a cab from St Albans or train via Hatfield) and catch a northbound LNER train from there. Must be faster than doubling back from Hatfield to Kings Cross.

Hi. @Hadders, if we are both at the St Albans forum meal, I'll explain.

 

[Deerfold]

True, but I will enjoy the ride that way as I haven't been on the WCML since GNER days.

ECML?

 

[AM9]

ECML?

Ooops! Yes of course.