TV Streaming, on train wifi and TV licencing

[Ken H]

In order to receive live TV or to use BBC iPlayer you need a TV licence for the premises you are in
So I go and sit on a train, connect to the train wifi and watch last night Eastenders on iPlayer
Does the train have a TV licence. or the TOC? or does Network rail have one for the whole network?
It would be the railway that was breaking the law if live TV or iplayer was used, not the passenger, I think.

 

[ainsworth74]

Nobody is breaking any law:

If you’re using a mobile device powered solely by its own internal batteries – like a smartphone, tablet or laptop – you will be covered by your home’s TV Licence, wherever you’re using it in the UK and Channel Islands.

However, if you’re away from home and plug one of these devices into the mains and use it to watch or record live TV programmes on any channel or device, or to download or watch BBC programmes on iPlayer, you need to be covered by a separate TV Licence at that address (unless you’re in a vehicle or vessel like a train, car or boat). It’s the law.

Watching TV live, online and on mobile devices - TV Licensing ™

A TV Licence covers you to watch live on any channel, TV service or streaming service, and to use BBC iPlayer. On any device.

www.tvlicensing.co.uk

 

[cuccir]

Interesting. The quote is really quite prissy for such an arbitrary situation. So if I'm in a station cafe and I watch iPlayer then I'm covered by my home TV license, but if I plug my laptop in then someone (Me? The station owner? The cafe operator if different?) is breaking the law, unless they have a license?

I had always presumed that my home license would cover me on any devices that I normally keep at home.

I appreciate that any enforcement is highly unlikely here! But the original question still stands I would have thought, but for station buildings rather than the trains themselves.

 

[Watershed]

The long and short of it is that it's ludicrously unenforceable. Hence why 99% of TV Licensing's prosecutions rely on people dobbing themselves in it, rather than refusing to speak to them or give them access, as would be in their best interest.

 

[ainsworth74]

Interesting. The quote is really quite prissy for such an arbitrary situation. So if I'm in a station cafe and I watch iPlayer then I'm covered by my home TV license, but if I plug my laptop in then someone (I? The station owner? The cafe operator if different?) is breaking the law...

I had always presumed that my home license would cover me on any devices that I normally keep at home.

Well that would be a sensible provision and we can't have that!

More seriously I suspect the issue is that the law hasn't been looked at since the mass adoption of highly portable devices that can receive live broadcasts.

 

[Ken H]

Well that would be a sensible provision and we can't have that!

More seriously I suspect the issue is that the law hasn't been looked at since the mass adoption of highly portable devices that can receive live broadcasts.

problem is that the law was designed when there was just BBC and ITS, and everyone who had a TV just used it for watching stuff through an ariel. Masses of channels, internet streaming and mobile devices (as you say Ainsworth) have changed the landscape. As has the fact that modern TV's have many more functions that watching TV broadcasts through an ariel.

 

[talldave]

Portable radio led to the demise of the radio licence. No doubt TV will go the same way at some point in the future, particularly when it's primarily delivered over your data connection.

 

[tellytype]

Frankly the "TV Licence" is a nonsense anyway - carry on regardless!

 

[Ken H]

Frankly the "TV Licence" is a nonsense anyway - carry on regardless!

I wonder how a detector van would get on tracking someone on an express train!!!

 

[nottsnurse]

I wonder how a detector van would get on tracking someone on an express train!!!

'Detector' vans are a myth/scam.

Arguably there was the vague chance they could have detected TVs when cathode ray tubes were the norm but now, given the multiple different ways programs can be sourced and watched? Not a chance.

They have always relied upon the technological ignorance many of the general public has and fear of the criminal conviction that not having a TV licence could bring, but as already mentioned, the vast majority of convictions rely upon self-incrimination.

"Detector Vans" are purely quasi-enforcement theatre relying upon ignorance.

 

[Neo9320]

'Detector' vans are a myth/scam.

Arguably there was the vague chance they could have detected TVs when cathode ray tubes were the norm but now, given the multiple different ways programs can be sourced and watched? Not a chance.

They have always relied upon the technological ignorance many of the general public has and fear of the criminal conviction that not having a TV licence could bring, but as already mentioned, the vast majority of convictions rely upon self-incrimination.

"Detector Vans" are purely quasi-enforcement theatre relying upon ignorance.

Trying to explain this to my mother a few weeks back was rather painful! She just wouldn’t believe that it’s a load of bull lol.

 

[Parham Wood]

It is amazing that the TV Licencing web site says if you use your mobile on batteries anywhere in the UK it is legal to watch TV but if you plug it in the mains anywhere it is not without a licence for that location. Could not the executive reviewing this see the stupidity of this? Perhaps they did but getting the law changed is another challenge altogether.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

'Detector' vans are a myth/scam.

Arguably there was the vague chance they could have detected TVs when cathode ray tubes were the norm but now, given the multiple different ways programs can be sourced and watched? Not a chance.

They have always relied upon the technological ignorance many of the general public has and fear of the criminal conviction that not having a TV licence could bring, but as already mentioned, the vast majority of convictions rely upon self-incrimination.

"Detector Vans" are purely quasi-enforcement theatre relying upon ignorance.

You could track any device using the TV streaming service even if on a train. Well you could track it back to an IP address but then check if the location of that address is the same as the user's TV licence would be I think an impossible challenge. Of course all the BBC need to do is to have people sign in with their current TV licence number and address, it would not stop the illegal watching from a plugged in device but the sensible approach in reality is that they only need to check if the person has a licence.

 

[Trackman]

Frankly the "TV Licence" is a nonsense anyway - ...

A while back I watched a load of these TV licensing you-tube videos.
It seems to me a lot of these convictions as someone said up thread are through the person shopping themselves.
What I'm unclear on is the evidence presenting in court, it seems a lot of these people have a tv set/mobile/tablet or whatever capable of receiving tv - so how are they convicted?

 

[Ediswan]

'Detector' vans are a myth/scam.

The vans were definitely real. The early models quite possibly did work (405 line VHF, CRT, valve circuits). How well the later models worked, if at all, is another matter. I can't find any mention of one being used as evidence in court.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2022 ==

What I'm unclear on is the evidence presenting in court, it seems a lot of these people have a tv set/mobile/tablet or whatever capable of receiving tv - so how are they convicted?

By some other means, or a dodgy conviction.The law says "use ... to watch or record". https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/about/foi-legal-framework-AB16

If I recall correctly, in the VHS era, there were some deliberately awkward people who only ever watched commercial pre-recorded tapes. Both the TV and the VCR were capable.

 

[route101]

I don't have a TV at the moment and use BBC I player on my laptop/tablet!

 

[Watershed]

What I'm unclear on is the evidence presenting in court, it seems a lot of these people have a tv set/mobile/tablet or whatever capable of receiving tv - so how are they convicted?

There are two separate offences; one is having a television receiver installed (which has broadly been held as having a TV etc. which is tuned to receive TV channels), the other is watching or recording live TV or iPlayer without a licence.

As stated above, it is almost impossible to prove someone has committed an offence unless they cooperate. Which they are under no compulsion to do.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't have a TV at the moment and use BBC I player on my laptop/tablet!

Aye well as long as you don't do so whilst either of them are plugged into the mains then, for reasons, you don't need a licence and, of course, you'd never do so would you?

 

[Ediswan]

There are two separate offences; one is having a television receiver installed (which has broadly been held as having a TV etc. which is tuned to receive TV channels),

Can you point to that offence in legislation. I have previously looked and failed to find it.

 

[ChrisC]

My sister moved to live in the West of Scotland in the early 1990’s when Sky TV had only just been launched. This was in the days before Sky Digital when Sky had limited channels and the UK terrestrial channels from the BBC, ITV etc were not available by satellite. The location of her house was in a valley between high mountains and there was no terrestrial tv reception available whatsoever. She had a basic subscription from Sky, and only really watched Sky News and a few of the documentary channels. This was years before any tv was available online and there was internet fast enough to receive it. Even though BBC, ITV, Channel 4 etc were impossible to receive she still had to have a tv licence in addition to a Sky subscription because she was watching live tv. Everyone in the valley thought it fantastic when Sky Digital was launched in about 1998 and the terrestrial channels became available to them for the first time.

 

[thenorthern]

Regarding the mains if someone was on a Voyager train with their computer plugged in would that be classed as "plugged into the mains" as it's a 3 pin plug but at the same time it's got it's own isolated onboard power supply that obviously isn't connected to the National Grid.

I am aware that this is a hypothetical question as one's home TV Licence covers people when they are on the train.

 

[Dent]

Regarding the mains if someone was on a Voyager train with their computer plugged in would that be classed as "plugged into the mains" as it's a 3 pin plug but at the same time it's got it's own isolated onboard power supply that obviously isn't connected to the National Grid.

I am aware that this is a hypothetical question as one's home TV Licence covers people when they are on the train.

This would be covered by the clause "unless you are in a vehicle or vessel", so wouldn't need a licence anyway.