Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Class 170101]

Not necessarily, South Eastern went to court to prevent the RMT organising TOC wide DCO strikes when Javelins were introduced, & they’ve been operating successfully ever since .

I thought that was a separate link to the other SE guards anyway?

 

[ainsworth74]

Just a reminder that discussion of strike day timetables should be in the relevant TOC threads. You can find a master list of those threads here.

 

[43066]

Perhaps ASLEF are rather more out of practice locally given they don't generally ballot as often as RMT. It is a very fast way to lose a lot of money, both in terms of the cost of a ballot and re-run and any potential legal action.

you can safely assume they already have. It’s the first thing that is done on receipt of the relevant paperwork.

I agree. Despite my earlier comment there’s precious little excuse for them not getting it right first time.

They’ve been in the business a while!

 

[carriageline]

Any news on the pay talks,? For NR

Nothing new as far as I know. Now government have broken up for summer (lol), are we likely to get much resolved seeing as who is calling the shots?

 

[Carlisle]

I thought that was a separate link to the other SE guards anyway?

It is, & being voluntary is presumably why a legal challenge was successful in this instance but not in any of the other DCO disputes .

 

[mandub]

Not really, in my experience.

Well it's led to bad feeling at my TOC and the management are well aware and have said so in internal comms.

A 90%+ strike vote on 85%+ turnout and it gets challenged on minor technicalities....

Essentially some drivers listed as trainees instead of fully qualified and some listed at wrong depots as they've transferred.
All these drivers are legitimate Aslef members and entitled to a vote irrespective of these issues so why would you challenge it given the overwhelming vote.

It's antagonistic and hasn't gone down well. Their choice (or more likely DfT prompted them given several TOC's seem to have done the same)

 

[Bald Rick]

All these drivers are legitimate Aslef members and entitled to a vote irrespective of these issues so why would you challenge it given the overwhelming vote.

The challenge will have been done before the votes were counted.

Their choice (or more likely DfT prompted them given several TOC's seem to have done the same)

every railway organisation I know checks that the ballot is legal, DfT don’t come into it.

 

[Tw99]

Nothing new as far as I know. Now government have broken up for summer (lol), are we likely to get much resolved seeing as who is calling the shots?

I doubt it, with a makeshift cabinet who are on holiday anyway. No one will want to take any decisions before the new regime arrives, so the unions are just wasting their time and members money in striking now.

 

[mandub]

The challenge will have been done before the votes were counted.




every railway organisation I know checks that the ballot is legal, DfT don’t come into it.

Cheers. Useful info.

Still 'feels' antagonistic to look for technical faults and pre challenge any result. They knew the likely mandate that'd be given, everyone did.

Anyway. Lessons learnt I suppose, on both sides.

 

[big_rig]

Nothing new as far as I know. Now government have broken up for summer (lol), are we likely to get much resolved seeing as who is calling the shots?

TSSA sent something round saying they want to re-run the Band 1-4 ballot, after the last one failed to get sufficient turnout. Waste of time in my view.

 

[Moonshot]

Well it's led to bad feeling at my TOC and the management are well aware and have said so in internal comms.

A 90%+ strike vote on 85%+ turnout and it gets challenged on minor technicalities....

Essentially some drivers listed as trainees instead of fully qualified and some listed at wrong depots as they've transferred.
All these drivers are legitimate Aslef members and entitled to a vote irrespective of these issues so why would you challenge it given the overwhelming vote.

It's antagonistic and hasn't gone down well. Their choice (or more likely DfT prompted them given several TOC's seem to have done the same)

Assuming you mean Northern , a re ballot would just return the same result anyway. Unfortunately however, ASLEF are not covering themselves in glory at the moment, they seem to be getting involved in way too many petty arguments which are not helping the membership.

 

[Vespa]

Will a September strike date be announced as well ?

 

[43096]

Cheers. Useful info.

Still 'feels' antagonistic to look for technical faults and pre challenge any result. They knew the likely mandate that'd be given, everyone did.

Anyway. Lessons learnt I suppose, on both sides.

If the boot was on the other foot what do you think the unions would do?

 

[dk1]

Will a September strike date be announced as well ?

Very likely I would say.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Will a September strike date be announced as well ?

Almost definitely. Expect to hear about it towards the mid to end of August. Would maybe hit 1st/2nd day of the new PM's tenure.

 

[Carlisle]

ASLEF are not covering themselves in glory at the moment, they seem to be getting involved in way too many petty arguments which are not helping the membership.

Indeed, didn’t they give ‘timetable reductions’ recently as one of the reasons for their previous ballot? First time I’ve heard that used to justify strike action unless one goes back to various BR era closure proposals

 

[westv]

Just a reminder that discussion of strike day timetables should be in the relevant TOC threads. You can find a master list of those threads here.

I noticed that Hull Trains and Grand Central aren't on the list on that thread.

 

[ainsworth74]

I noticed that Hull Trains and Grand Central aren't on the list on that thread.

I have added the existing thread for Hull Trains. No-one appears to have created one for Grand Central so there isn't one to add!

 

[Andypandy1968]

BA check in staff just been offered what amounts to 13% A benchmark there I would suggest.

 

[greyman42]

Do you have any evidence of that ?

No, i just made the comment based on what people i know think, what the general public have been saying on the news and what the newspapers print.
Is there any evidence to the contrary?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

BA check in staff just been offered what amounts to 13% A benchmark there I would suggest.

For airline staff in other airlines? The recent chaos at airports will not be forgotten by those whose holidays have been affected.

 

[Mag_seven]

BA check in staff just been offered what amounts to 13% A benchmark there I would suggest.

They had a pay cut during the pandemic - this just brings it back to what it was.

 

[800001]

BA check in staff just been offered what amounts to 13% A benchmark there I would suggest.

But doesn’t that increase include the % they lost during covid? And an extra %age

 

[winks]

Think it was more like 8% BA were offered with other bits and bobs on top taking it to equivalent of 13%

 

[mlb54]

Trying to get an explanation from GTR as to why on strike day Peterborough gets 2 tph but the next non strike day only 1 tph all day. They say crew and stock displacement, but how can that last all day. Seems to me they just can’t be bothered to try and get back to normal service throughout the day, or is it me.

 

[TPO]

Maybe you should read what I actually said:



Some already have resigned over rosters. I don’t know the reasons for everyone leaving (obviously). But I do know that in some places, the number of vacancies is high enough that local management are finding it difficult and are asking for the “pause” in recruitment (agreed between the company and the unions earlier this year) to be relaxed.

Also, ask yourself why Network Rail are so convinced that they can give a no compulsory redundancy agreement for maintenance and infrastructure staff, and why they think this will work, with enough of the staff leaving via a voluntary severance scheme?


The frustrating thing is, is that working at night, in either a T3 (engineering occupation) worksite or in a line block (safeguarded), is not always safer than working with lookout protection. A properly implemented lookout warning system is perfectly safe. And mistakes can be made that mean that a safeguarded/separated (lineblock) may not be as safe as it should be.

Let’s look at some examples.

I don’t consider a T3 worksite to be safe if while you are concentrating on your work, a ‘360’ on track machine (like a JCB) which is holding a 60 foot rail drives right up to you, while the rail it’s carrying swings nearly above your head. Yes, this has happened.

Or where either the T3 protection boards or the worksite marker boards are placed in the wrong place. Again, this has happened. {Outside a worksite, the line is to be considered as open to train movements (engineering trains, on track machine etc.) unless there are no movements in the whole T3}.

Especially in junction areas, mistakes with line blocks can be potentially deadly.

One time there was a mistake with the points number that staff were working on. So the protection was arranged for one set of points, but the staff were working on another set of points… this may even have been a typo, as the difference between the two point numbers was a single digit.

Another time, the team leader did not understand that the safe system of work pack with the line block form did not protect the whole junction. Even though the planned work required this. As far as the signaller was concerned, one line was still available and open to traffic. So they ran a train on this line. It was just luck that the staff on the ground that had been working across all the lines happened to be clear of this line when the train travelled through the junction area.

Once, when a line block was overrunning, at the change-over between signallers, the signaller that had just come on duty got confused. Removed the reminder appliances and signalled a train into the line block. Luckily the signaller on the adjacent workstation realised and the protecting signal was put back to red before the train went through.

The unions are disappointed that Network Rail are not using available technology to make lookout protection safer. There are various systems that automatically generate a warning. And which could be used (some of these are existing technologies or systems that are available right now), rather than this catch all no ‘red zone’ working.

We can’t even cross a railway line now. Even if it’s a 15MPH line with good sighting distance.

Working at night where your body clock is messed up, appears to cause health problems in later life.
Working at night increases the risk of falling over an object (or hole) that you did not see.
Working at night means you have to take site lighting as well as all the tools and equipment to site. Most teams don’t have any form of transportation to use in a line block on the railway line. So it’s a case of carrying it all while walking (it could be two miles or more).

And now they want less staff which will make it even harder…

Spot on. There's regular mistakes on protection for LBs/T3s. Anyone who reads the NOC knows this.

The thing about not crossing the line at all even with good sighting distance is mad. IMO, those "safety professionals" in NR who are promulgating this need their bumps felt.

There was an attempt by some of us more than 10 years ago to push for Signal Controlled Warning Systems (sophisticated TOWS) to be put in when the GWML was resignalled. Uses standard modules on the signalling systems- it's used in parts of mainland EU. Marginal extra cost, and would have been a game changer by enabling a reasonable level of safe working with lines open to trains during the day. Some senior NR bods said "no" for reasons that are best described as "too difficult box." Now the front-line staff are being set up to pay the price for the complacency of those senior people who thought the magic money tree would never stop giving.

TPO

 

[Sunset route]

Why ? No real impact on current signallers, TMS actually benefits us (where we’re trained to use it) no compulsory redundancies for the life of the deal. The only issue I can see is the uplift to 67 vice 65.

The proposed increase in pay will now cover the current lose in strikes, I’d also say the self evidence proposals need work to allow us the time to compile the files.

In the Control centre where I work we can see huge impact on our working conditions and the work life balance with the proposed changes. Drop some of the contentious conditions and it might start going in the right direction.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Trying to get an explanation from GTR as to why on strike day Peterborough gets 2 tph but the next non strike day only 1 tph all day. They say crew and stock displacement, but how can that last all day. Seems to me they just can’t be bothered to try and get back to normal service throughout the day, or is it me.

Because they are running their Sunday service on the non strike day, which is the only plan they can implement without completely over working their timetable planners.

 

[Signal_Box]

In the Control centre where I work we can see huge impact on our working conditions and the work life balance with the proposed changes. Drop some of the contentious conditions and it might start going in the right direction.

Such as? Condition wise..

 

[jon0844]

No, i just made the comment based on what people i know think, what the general public have been saying on the news and what the newspapers print.
Is there any evidence to the contrary?

Obviously I have no idea what people you know think, but look in the papers (or their online sites with commenting enabled) or most TV interviews and you'll see widespread support, which I have to say stunned me.

Goes to show that with so many working and middle classes realising that they're being made to pay the price for everything going wrong, while many people make excess profits (such as oil companies) that this, as well as other strikes, have to succeed in their aims for others to take similar action and succeed.