Class 317s and 315s comparisons in service.

[CDM]

The 315s need one even less than the 317. They’re horrible insignificant units which have some how managed to crawl on and work for a “brand new” railway.

Split from here:

Class 317 withdrawals.

I hear the first class 317 withdrawals are imminent. Any more news?

www.railforums.co.uk

315's have worked over a longer life and carried more passengers than the 317's. They've worked *far* past their design life, done so with superb reliability, using less energy than a class 317, survived in far better material condition and in many ways provide a better environment for passengers (ventilation, internal space and access is far superior).

They are a fantastic train that has delivered phenomenally for Essex commuters over the decades. They absolutely DO deserve a quality send off.

I saw many more than 1 seat headrest gone. A couple of seats were just on the floor of the train too - it's sad that this happens and in a way discourages the whole last day/railtour event happening elsewhere

Bear in mind the trains weren't in use just by rail buffs - normal passengers were using them also, the Hertford East line has always been a hot spot for vandalism and there was a festival at Ware, meaning the trains were used by plenty of drunken youths throughout the day as well.
It's not surprising and won't feature in GA's decision making for a Class 321 send off, IMO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==

The 321s will definitely get a big GA send-off as it represents the completion of the big project. And of all the classes that have left the Greater Anglia area 321301-321330 have been serving Essex passengers for 35 years, the most of any of the classes replaced thus far.

Class 315 have been serving Essex commuters for 42 years and counting - including during Greater Anglia's tenure of the metro services (and for the whole of that time on the GE side and majority of the time for WA services - including during the mtr crossrail/London Overground time - been maintained at Ilford, by Greater Anglia's staff).

I agree that the 321's should get a proper send off. It's the end of the project but also, the 321's are a truly excellent train. I'll be very sad to see them go.

Overall, 315's and 321's are absolutely fantastic units, that have worked incredibly hard for Essex. The reality is, while 317's have worked hard, of the 3 types they have always been the worst of the units, on so, so many levels.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==

Until one works again, they have stopped working. They didn't change 442s to say "19xx - to present" as soon as the transfer to SWR was announced, and that was when they'd been guaranteed to work again! In the unlikely event that the 317s were to return, there would be nothing to stop them editing the date.

The important dates here are the last day they run and the date they are withdrawn.

Withdrawn is the *actual* end date for units with an operator (they are made not available for service).
This might be the same date they last run in service, or it might be after the last date they actually end up running in service.

The last 317 units with GA are not yet withdrawn.
They're still on lease, maintained in operational condition, available for traffic and will be used if needed, right up until the day they actually go to Ely.

Entirely different to the 442's. They were immediately withdrawn, not available for traffic.

 

[Wivenswold]

Class 315 have been serving Essex commuters for 42 years and counting - including during Greater Anglia's tenure of the metro services (and for the whole of that time on the GE side and majority of the time for WA services - including during the mtr crossrail/London Overground time - been maintained at Ilford, by Greater Anglia's staff).

Sorry, I was thinking of Essex proper. I see the 315s as London units, they used to have early/late turns to Southend but they generally only served a few Essex stations on the fringes of Greater London, most Essex rail users have had 321s all their commuting life. I think I've only ever been on a 315 when the service has gone bad, hence my lack of love for them.

 

[O L Leigh]

Is that at Stratford? Goes past Anthems way?

No idea where Anthems Way is, but yes it’s Stratford.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==

315's have worked over a longer life and carried more passengers than the 317's. They've worked *far* past their design life, done so with superb reliability, using less energy than a class 317, survived in far better material condition and in many ways provide a better environment for passengers (ventilation, internal space and access is far superior).

They are a fantastic train that has delivered phenomenally for Essex commuters over the decades. They absolutely DO deserve a quality send off.

Pardon me, but I think that’s a little ungracious under the circumstances. You may not have seen many Cl317s in your part of Essex until much later in their lives, but they were the backbone of WA for 3 decades. As such I don’t think they were any less deserving of a send-off than any other class.

I would also point out that the Cl315s have had a full strip down and had the corrosion dealt with as well as new equipment fitted during refurb about 15 years back. Had they not had this work they would have been in far far worse condition than even the Cl317s which only ever got new paint every now and then. They were awful prior to this work being done.

 

[Bikeman78]

No idea where Anthems Way is, but yes it’s Stratford.

I looked at Google maps. It's near Stratford International station.

Pardon me, but I think that’s a little ungracious under the circumstances. You may not have seen many Cl317s in your part of Essex until much later in their lives, but they were the backbone of WA for 3 decades. As such I don’t think they were any less deserving of a send-off than any other class.

The phase one 317s have worked out of six London termini. Has anything else beaten that? I think some CEPs equaled it and the roaming red 387s can't be far behind.

 

[O L Leigh]

The phase one 317s have worked out of six London termini. Has anything else beaten that? I think some CEPs equaled it and the roaming red 387s can't be far behind.

Yup. It’s only Paddington that they could have worked out of but didn’t. They also worked down the ECML as far as Newcastle in passenger service when the IC225 sets were temporarily pulled from traffic.

 

[Class15]

I looked at Google maps. It's near Stratford International station.


The phase one 317s have worked out of six London termini. Has anything else beaten that? I think some CEPs equaled it and the roaming red 387s can't be far behind.

St Pancras, Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street... what’s the other?

 

[O L Leigh]

St Pancras, Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street... what’s the other?

Moorgate.

 

[Richard Scott]

St Pancras, Euston, Kings Cross, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street... what’s the other?

Possibly Moorgate?

 

[Class15]

Moorgate.

Possibly Moorgate?

Ah I see.

 

[StephenHunter]

Moorgate.

When did the Widened Lines get wired?

 

[Class15]

When did the Widened Lines get wired?

At the same time as the Midland suburban scheme I think.

 

[O L Leigh]

Wikipedia’s article on The Widened Lines says…

In 1978 work started on electrification of the Widened Lines from St Pancras to Moorgate as part of the "Bedpan" line, an electric service between Bedford and Moorgate, opening on 15 July 1983. King's Cross Widened Lines station was renamed King's Cross Midland City, and King's Cross Thameslink in May 1988 when the Snow Hill tunnels reopened for Thameslink.

Widened Lines - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Magdalia]

They also worked down the ECML as far as Newcastle in passenger service when the IC225 sets were temporarily pulled from traffic.

Can you quote trains and dates for that please?

Three class 317 pairs worked the ECML on Saturday 20 June 1998, after the Sandy derailment, but all three pairs did double rounders to Leeds. The limited service to Newcastle and Scotland was covered by HSTs.

There's one known working to Newcastle, but it was on a staff special, not a passenger service.

317327, 43183 NCL 27-3-93

Another view of 317327 at Newcastle on a staff special from Kings Cross, posing with 43183 on the 1205 to Plymouth. 27 March 1993.

www.flickr.com

 

[O L Leigh]

Can you quote trains and dates for that please?

No I'm afraid I can't. I trust that you're not suggesting that it can't have happened if I'm unable to quote chapter and verse.

The problem is that such evidence as may have existed appears to no longer exist. This thread from 2010 references both the now defunct Fotopic site and an even earlier thread, the link to which now just takes you to a log-in page. The photo I originally saw was neither of the ones now on Flickr, one of which you have linked to, but if it turns out to have been the Hornsey staff outing then so be it.

 

[Magdalia]

No I'm afraid I can't. I trust that you're not suggesting that it can't have happened if I'm unable to quote chapter and verse.

The problem is that such evidence as may have existed appears to no longer exist. This thread from 2010 references both the now defunct Fotopic site and an even earlier thread, the link to which now just takes you to a log-in page. The photo I originally saw was neither of the ones now on Flickr, one of which you have linked to, but if it turns out to have been the Hornsey staff outing then so be it.

Historical research does require an audit trail of sources. It is what wikipedia would call "citation needed".

Railway Observer August 1998 has a long report on the aftermath of the Sandy derailment and does not mention any class 317s to Newcastle. That doesn't mean that it definitely didn't happen, but Railway Observer at the time had very good sources that didn't miss much about what happened on the ECML.

You're right that such evidence as may have existed may no longer exist. This applies not just to fotopic but also yahoo group message history. Paper records are still the most secure in this regard, digital records can disappear at the flick of a switch.

And captions on photo sharing websites are not always accurate. I spend a lot of time cross checking different sources. That's why I was interested in knowing if you have more information, so thanks for posting the link to the 2010 discussion, which I'd not seen. Fortunately some information about the fotopic picture has survived in that discussion. The point about the PRISM logos does mean that the fotopic picture was post privatisation, but, given that the picture was taken at Doncaster, and probably on a Saturday, I think that it is probably a Leeds train unless there's strong evidence to the contrary. It is a shame that the 2010 discussion did not quote the unit numbers!

 

[CDM]

Sorry, I was thinking of Essex proper. I see the 315s as London units, they used to have early/late turns to Southend but they generally only served a few Essex stations on the fringes of Greater London, most Essex rail users have had 321s all their commuting life. I think I've only ever been on a 315 when the service has gone bad, hence my lack of love for them.

I get what you're saying. Essex starts between HRO and BRE though and besides working to SOV right up until TfL Rail started, 315's were also diagrammed to work services to Chelmsford, Southminster and Stansted (and I mean there, they were planned in timetables to operate services to those locations, not that they operated odd trains when other stock was short!).

Pardon me, but I think that’s a little ungracious under the circumstances. You may not have seen many Cl317s in your part of Essex until much later in their lives, but they were the backbone of WA for 3 decades. As such I don’t think they were any less deserving of a send-off than any other class.

I would also point out that the Cl315s have had a full strip down and had the corrosion dealt with as well as new equipment fitted during refurb about 15 years back. Had they not had this work they would have been in far far worse condition than even the Cl317s which only ever got new paint every now and then. They were awful prior to this work being done.

It's a factual statement on the 317's. They just are not as good a train as 315's or 321's, in anyway.
317's are compromised in so many ways. They're very much a 'cobble together', even within their own class - which is not too surprising considering they were the first Mk3 derivative EMU, whereas the 315 and 321's were the pinnacle of their respective generations (the last development of their platform). It's not slagging them off, it's just fact.

The 'full strip down' you refer to is the C6 and C6X overhaul.
317's also had C6 and C6X's. It's a planned part of the life of any BR unit, covering the overhaul and repair of basically every major component (including the body) above solebar. Up until privatisation, there was no difference in the level of investment, scope of the overhaul or quality of work done, on either of those fleets.

Since privatisation (during the WAGN days) it is entirely correct that while the core overhaul of components on the units was the same, the level of 'work arising' authorised (which would include the extent of the corrosion repair undertaken after the inspections were complete) was less on Class 317, than 315 - because, being blunt, NX were cheap and didn't like to pay and Angel were happy not to invest in long term asset condition of the 317's. Eversholt always took a different view and invested in asset condition over a long-term - so the 315's and 321's always had corrosion repair fully dealt with.
Point to note - the 315's have also now run much longer since their last full C6 than the 317's have and suffer from dissimilar metal corrosion (aluminium on steel).

However, what I suspect you're really referring to (the 'apparent' level of strip and overhaul) is the internal refurbishments and modernisation modifications?
On that, actually, the 317/7 refurbishment went beyond anything the 315's received - the only comparable refurb would be the 321 Renatus.
The investment in 315's during the C6X at C6X gave them the new door controls, new traction electronics and wheel slip/slide - fantastic reliability improvements, but irrelevant to overall asset condition (all the door gear on 317's had a full overhaul which resets it to 'new' condition during C6/C6X as well). And the interiors on 315's are basically still 'as built' minus decoration, whereas the 317's have had much more substantial changes (seats changed out for different types, PRM toilets fitted, CET tanks fitted etc).

The 317's have also received way more frequent internal 'refreshes' than the 315's;
315's have had an internal refresh only TWICE since they got the NSE corporate refresh prior to privatisation (once at NXEA C6X and once at the start of TfL Rail). The 317's have had that many internal refreshes in just the last seven years, let alone prior to that during privatisation!
So overall, the 315's have every right to be in a far worse condition and less reliable, in every way... But aren't.

Ask any fitter that's worked on 315's, 317's and 321's which is the crapiest unit. You'll get the same answer.

317's are just a much more compromised design, from the outset.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2022 ==

The phase one 317s have worked out of six London termini. Has anything else beaten that? I think some CEPs equaled it and the roaming red 387s can't be far behind.

If you work up the number of UK counties 321's have worked in, they'll knock 317's out the park.

 

[O L Leigh]

Historical research does require an audit trail of sources. It is what wikipedia would call "citation needed".

Railway Observer August 1998 has a long report on the aftermath of the Sandy derailment and does not mention any class 317s to Newcastle. That doesn't mean that it definitely didn't happen, but Railway Observer at the time had very good sources that didn't miss much about what happened on the ECML.

You're right that such evidence as may have existed may no longer exist. This applies not just to fotopic but also yahoo group message history. Paper records are still the most secure in this regard, digital records can disappear at the flick of a switch.

And captions on photo sharing websites are not always accurate. I spend a lot of time cross checking different sources. That's why I was interested in knowing if you have more information, so thanks for posting the link to the 2010 discussion, which I'd not seen. Fortunately some information about the fotopic picture has survived in that discussion. The point about the PRISM logos does mean that the fotopic picture was post privatisation, but, given that the picture was taken at Doncaster, and probably on a Saturday, I think that it is probably a Leeds train unless there's strong evidence to the contrary. It is a shame that the 2010 discussion did not quote the unit numbers!

Yes of course. I do completely understand where you're coming from with this. Apologies if I seemed a little over-defensive, but I've seen challenges of that type before on this forum before people try to rubbish what someone is saying.

We were indeed lucky to have the originator of the Doncaster photo contribute to the thread, but sadly his own records were somewhat lacking and so we didn't get all the details we'd hoped for.

It's a factual statement on the 317's.

It's not. It's your opinion.

In any case, it doesn't matter. I've no idea quite why you've got such a bee in your bonnet about Cl317s anyway. Whether you liked them or not, these units deserved to have a moment in the limelight on the occasion of their retirement, as I'm sure your preferred Cl315s and Cl321s will when the time comes. If you've no interest then so be it, but there's no need to be so ungracious.

 

[MCR247]

I get what you're saying. Essex starts between HRO and BRE though and besides working to SOV right up until TfL Rail started, 315's were also diagrammed to work services to Chelmsford, Southminster and Stansted (and I mean there, they were planned in timetables to operate services to those locations, not that they operated odd trains when other stock was short!).



It's a factual statement on the 317's. They just are not as good a train as 315's or 321's, in anyway.
317's are compromised in so many ways. They're very much a 'cobble together', even within their own class - which is not too surprising considering they were the first Mk3 derivative EMU, whereas the 315 and 321's were the pinnacle of their respective generations (the last development of their platform). It's not slagging them off, it's just fact.

The 'full strip down' you refer to is the C6 and C6X overhaul.
317's also had C6 and C6X's. It's a planned part of the life of any BR unit, covering the overhaul and repair of basically every major component (including the body) above solebar. Up until privatisation, there was no difference in the level of investment, scope of the overhaul or quality of work done, on either of those fleets.

Since privatisation (during the WAGN days) it is entirely correct that while the core overhaul of components on the units was the same, the level of 'work arising' authorised (which would include the extent of the corrosion repair undertaken after the inspections were complete) was less on Class 317, than 315 - because, being blunt, NX were cheap and didn't like to pay and Angel were happy not to invest in long term asset condition of the 317's. Eversholt always took a different view and invested in asset condition over a long-term - so the 315's and 321's always had corrosion repair fully dealt with.
Point to note - the 315's have also now run much longer since their last full C6 than the 317's have and suffer from dissimilar metal corrosion (aluminium on steel).

However, what I suspect you're really referring to (the 'apparent' level of strip and overhaul) is the internal refurbishments and modernisation modifications?
On that, actually, the 317/7 refurbishment went beyond anything the 315's received - the only comparable refurb would be the 321 Renatus.
The investment in 315's during the C6X at C6X gave them the new door controls, new traction electronics and wheel slip/slide - fantastic reliability improvements, but irrelevant to overall asset condition (all the door gear on 317's had a full overhaul which resets it to 'new' condition during C6/C6X as well). And the interiors on 315's are basically still 'as built' minus decoration, whereas the 317's have had much more substantial changes (seats changed out for different types, PRM toilets fitted, CET tanks fitted etc).

The 317's have also received way more frequent internal 'refreshes' than the 315's;
315's have had an internal refresh only TWICE since they got the NSE corporate refresh prior to privatisation (once at NXEA C6X and once at the start of TfL Rail). The 317's have had that many internal refreshes in just the last seven years, let alone prior to that during privatisation!
So overall, the 315's have every right to be in a far worse condition and less reliable, in every way... But aren't.

Ask any fitter that's worked on 315's, 317's and 321's which is the crapiest unit. You'll get the same answer.

317's are just a much more compromised design, from the outset.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2022 ==



If you work up the number of UK counties 321's have worked in, they'll knock 317's out the park.

Surely the at least some of the 315s were touched between NSE and NXEA or how else did some get the newer headlights and I think a change to the windows or something(?)

 

[CDM]

It's not. It's your opinion.

In any case, it doesn't matter. I've no idea quite why you've got such a bee in your bonnet about Cl317s anyway. Whether you liked them or not, these units deserved to have a moment in the limelight on the occasion of their retirement, as I'm sure your preferred Cl315s and Cl321s will when the time comes. If you've no interest then so be it, but there's no need to be so ungracious.

I'm not being ungracious, at all. I'm just being objective. By every objective measure, the 317's are not as good as train.
Potentially the only one I can think of where they're better is the seating on the /1's being more comfortable (because it's the old big sprung cushions) but also for the same reason, they provided less seats. So... Swings and roundabouts for commuters on that one.

At no point have I suggested they didn't deserve a send off - I totally agree that they did - as I said, they have worked very hard! They've carried millions of passengers and survived being passed around multiple routes. That warrants celebration and their moment to shine and I'm glad they were given it.

it doesn't make them objectively a better train than 315, 321 (or even 318, 320, 365 etc) though.

Surely the at least some of the 315s were touched between NSE and NXEA or how else did some get the newer headlights and I think a change to the windows or something(?)

Yes they've been touched, I did cover that off. That's routine overhauls and reliability modification programmes. 317's got all those overhauls and their own range of modification programmes, as well.
Just to expand on a couple of the specific you mentioned there; the front headlights you mention there were trial mods as part of the C6X programme (4 units only for that particular mod) and the window changes were also part of the C6X (windows are a standard part of that work but normally not changed out wholesale. That was just done in that instance to reduce the overhaul and repair costs on the original frames and to achieve compliance for laminated glass as a recommendation from one of the major crash investigations).

Where I said the 315's hadn't been in comparison to 317's, was the interiors. The 315 interiors were 'as built' (with exception of changing the seat covers to blue blaze when NSE came along) right through from build up to the end of First Great Eastern. They then had an interior refresh as part of the C6X (seat covers changed, interior side panels changed on lower half and upper half painted, floor covers changed). That interior then lasted until TfL rail (and London Overground), when the seat covers were changed again, covers fitted to light fittings and interior panels repainted.
That's it. That's the entire interior refresh that the 315's have had, in 40+ years service. Whereas 317's have had multiple interior refreshes.
Hope that helps clear up that side of things a bit more?

 

[Magdalia]

By every objective measure, the 317's are not as good as train.

One key and objective measure is performance out on the track and there the class 317s beat the class 321s comfortably. On down commuter trains out of Kings Cross a pair of class 317s were usually about 4 mph faster than a pair of class 321s going up the 1/200 to Potters Bar. Ask a GN driver which they would rather have.

Whereas 317's have had multiple interior refreshes.

Well yes and no. The class 317/6 and 317/7 had major internal refreshes around the millennium, but that's not the case for the rest of the fleet. The first build class 317s did have the original awful seats replaced in the NSE era, and there have been the recent PRM modifications to 27 units. But what you call multiple internal refreshes have mostly been superficial changes, similar to what you describe for class 315s. These were funded by the TOCs to match their corporate image, and done at Clacton or Hornsey. Both Clacton and Hornsey were very good at this, able to make new seat covers, new floor coverings and a lick of paint look like what TV property programmes might call a makeover. Even the class 317/8 conversion, which was done at Doncaster, was mostly superficial, apart from replacement of some seats with luggage racks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2022 ==

If you work up the number of UK counties 321's have worked in, they'll knock 317's out the park.

What is your list of counties where class 321s have worked, but class 317s have not, please?

Class 322s not allowed!

 

[Jturner98]

Working on all 3 fleets at some point, to be honest I did prefer the 317s.

315s were ok but the job I done on them wasn’t great. A few years back we had to do a LED mod to the light diffusers. At that point the trains were still ear marked for Wales.

321s were having a C4 overhaul which consisted of bogie replacement and compressors replacement etc. That wasn’t too bad.

317s were in for a C6 overhaul. We had the phase 1 units which were split between the London Overground and the AGA ones. It would alternate between which ones got sent to us. In my opinion, the London Overground ones were the worst out of the bunch (/8). But the whole class suffered with corrosion issues, which we fixed up. Most of them were in a bad state before we had them. Each unit took around 6 weeks to complete. The stages of the unit was

1. Arrive
2. Split the train
3. Strip the Interior
4. Corrosion repair
5. Remove the doors for paint and paint both the doors and body.
6. Put the train back together inside
7. Test
8. Out the door she goes!

 

[Magdalia]

317s were in for a C6 overhaul. We had the phase 1 units which were split between the London Overground and the AGA ones. It would alternate between which ones got sent to us. In my opinion the London Overground ones were the worst out of the bunch (/8). But the whole class suffered with corrosion issues which we fixed up. Most of them were in a bad state before we had them. Each unit took around 6 weeks to complete. The stages of the unit was

1. Arrive
2. Split the train
3. Strip the Interior
4. Corrosion repair
5. Remove the doors for paint and paint both the doors and body.
6. Put the train back together inside
7. Test
8. Out the door she goes!

Thanks for this interesting insight. I'm guessing stage 4 probably took up more time than all the others combined! Corrosion was a severe problem on class 317s which would make preservation a challenge. You and your colleagues did a grand job.

Did the TOCs have to do the branding vinyls themselves?

 

[Jturner98]

Thanks for this interesting insight. I'm guessing stage 4 probably took up more time than all the others combined! Corrosion was a severe problem on class 317s which would make preservation a challenge. You and your colleagues did a grand job.

Did the TOCs have to do the branding vinyls themselves?

Yeah corrosion took a while. Some units were in a sorry state when we lifted the floor up. The corrosion repair was done just above the solebar. To be honest I’d expect most of the remaining 317s to be in good condition corrosion wise at the moment.

As to vinyls a separate company came in go to that. We removed the old branding - for example the London Overground roundels on the 317s which were still in National Express colours at the time. A separate company would also come in to do the flooring. After the floor was dry we put sandbags on it to allow the floor to dry.

 

[O L Leigh]

Where I said the 315's hadn't been in comparison to 317's, was the interiors. The 315 interiors were 'as built' (with exception of changing the seat covers to blue blaze when NSE came along) right through from build up to the end of First Great Eastern. They then had an interior refresh as part of the C6X (seat covers changed, interior side panels changed on lower half and upper half painted, floor covers changed). That interior then lasted until TfL rail (and London Overground), when the seat covers were changed again, covers fitted to light fittings and interior panels repainted.
That's it. That's the entire interior refresh that the 315's have had, in 40+ years service. Whereas 317's have had multiple interior refreshes.
Hope that helps clear up that side of things a bit more?

You're exaggerating for effect.

Both Cl315 and Cl317 had internal refreshes throughout their lives as described (re-covered seats, repainted interior panels/grab handles/poles, etc), both receiving them at around the same time. For example, those Cl317s that were transferred to London Overground along with the Cl315s received an internal refresh while those remaining with GA also had the same treatment in order to match the TOCs' corporate image. If you go back through their histories, from BR corporate to NSE to 'one' to GA (WAGN never really seemed to bother doing anything with the interiors except to the Cl317/6 and Cl317/7 sub-classes), both classes will have received the same treatment at about the same time. Both classes retain the original seat frames and bolsters they left York with and, PRM modifications aside, the same seating arrangements.

What you overlook is that both classes also required PRM modifications which, in the case of the Cl315s, featured PIS, a wheelchair space with tip-up seating and call-for-aid facility. Naturally the Cl317 PRM mods were more far-reaching because they have toilets which the Cl315s lack and required new compliant door buttons and tones which the Cl315s had already received when the mechanisms were completely replaced more than 15 years ago.

Another thing you forget is that the Cl315s had far more work done on them than is required by the exam schedule. You've mentioned the window frames, but the door mechanisms were totally replaced at the same time, going from air operation to electric and tied into the WSP racks to permit the same emergency operation as is found on more modern units. The tread plates were also completely replaced with a new design to improve reliability while the driving cab also received improvements with new switchgear on the desk.

If these had really been part of the same routine maintenance that the Cl317s then you should have expected them also to have received the same upgrades, but they didn't.

it doesn't make them objectively a better train than 315, 321 (or even 318, 320, 365 etc) though.

I'm not trying to suggest that they are. I'm just trying to correct where your GE-centric version of events is less than accurate.

What is your list of counties where class 321s have worked, but class 317s have not, please?

Class 322s not allowed!

I too would like to see this list. By my own reckoning there isn't a county that a Cl321 has visited that a Cl317 hasn't also been to.

 

[delt1c]

Used both 315 and 317 since introduction , both fantastic units. On the Hertford And Cheshunt services the 315’s were fantastic crowd busters. But remember the 317’s had little more than general overhauls whilst 315’s had major works undertaken. For me the 317 wins hands down as withdrawn in in little more than as built spec

 

[nw1]

I looked at Google maps. It's near Stratford International station.


The phase one 317s have worked out of six London termini. Has anything else beaten that? I think some CEPs equaled it

The six (for CEPs) must be: Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo, Cannon Street, London Bridge, Holborn Viaduct. I know CEPs worked out of the first 5 of these, not sure about Holborn. Both VEPs and EPBs would have matched that, as they certainly worked out of HV. I'd guess SUBs too, and likely HAPs.

 

[306024]

Used both 315 and 317 since introduction , both fantastic units. On the Hertford And Cheshunt services the 315’s were fantastic crowd busters. But remember the 317’s had little more than general overhauls whilst 315’s had major works undertaken. For me the 317 wins hands down as withdrawn in in little more than as built spec

It is with high passenger loadings where 315s are better than 317s. If a 317 had to be put out on a Shenfield service it would generally lose the odd minute with longer station stops, so this was only done when there was no other option.

On West Anglia the Chingford / Enfield / Cheshunt were a mix of both units, but 317s were usually diagrammed towards the peak services leaving off peak as 315s. Some drivers told me they weren’t bothered which, others preferred 315s on those stopping services, especially in slippery leaf season. Guess it’s all a bit subjective.

 

[nw1]

On West Anglia the Chingford / Enfield / Cheshunt were a mix of both units, but 317s were usually diagrammed towards the peak services leaving off peak as 315s.

That seems like the opposite of what one might expect; the peak services need the most seats, so it would make more sense to have the 315s (no first class) on those. (Unless there was a sub-fleet of 317s without first, apologies if so).

 

[DanNCL]

They also worked down the ECML as far as Newcastle in passenger service when the IC225 sets were temporarily pulled from traffic.

317s didn't make it north of Leeds in passenger service substituing for IC225s. They made a visit to Newcastle on a Network South East staff charter, and a much more recent visit to York on a public charter.

I too would like to see this list. By my own reckoning there isn't a county that a Cl321 has visited that a Cl317 hasn't also been to.

The only one I can think of is Northumberland. But as the only visit of a 321 there I know of was being dragged to Kilmarnock for conversion into a 320 I'm not sure that counts.

The phase one 317s have worked out of six London termini. Has anything else beaten that? I think some CEPs equaled it and the roaming red 387s can't be far behind.

The six (for CEPs) must be: Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo, Cannon Street, London Bridge, Holborn Viaduct. I know CEPs worked out of the first 5 of these, not sure about Holborn. Both VEPs and EPBs would have matched that, as they certainly worked out of HV. I'd guess SUBs too, and likely HAPs.

2-EPBs worked out of seven London terminals as they also briefly worked out of Broad Street.

 

[nw1]

2-EPBs worked out of seven London terminals as they also briefly worked out of Broad Street.

True. Thus perhaps we have our winner!