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Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

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LNW-GW Joint

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You could actually say we are living in a paradox when they are so supportive of HS2 and IRP yet the existing network is just drifting along
The existing network got £38 billion over CP6, 2019-24 (this excluded major enhancements like HS2, IRP and EWS, TRU, MML etc).
Huge sums have been given to Network Rail for maintenance and renewal.
ORR is just starting the planning process for CP7 (2024-29), and the government will soon have say what it will pay for the railway (presumably in a GBR context) in its HLOS and SoFA submissions).
 
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mandub

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But does this really provide a strong enough template for success now? A lot has happened since then. Is the objective today to get the TOCs to capitulate, or Government?
No one knows if striking will gain us a pay rise (we've had no pay offer at all so far).

It's a calculated risk to withdraw labour and there's not been a driver's strike for 20yrs at my TOC, so it's not done lightly or in some mad militant world view.

It's designed (hoped) to draw attention and focus minds and let the employers know the strength of feeling among drivers.

The only other option is to not strike, accept a pay freeze (indefinitely???) and have no guarantee at all that the somewhat gleeful apocalyptic prophesies of the future for the railway on here don't come to pass anyway.
 

Carlisle

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But does this really provide a strong enough template for success now?
Quite possibly yes, unions are good at playing the rail companies off against each other so if TFW, Scotrail, Merseyrail etc are agreeing 5-10% rises with effectively no strings attached it’ll be extremely challenging for other parts of the industry to link similar rises to increased productivity of any sort.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Quite possibly yes, unions are good at playing the rail companies off against each other so if TFW, Scotrail, Merseyrail etc are agreeing 5-10% rises with effectively no strings attached it’ll be extremely challenging for other parts of the industry to link similar rises to increased productivity of any sort.
Are Merseyrail a somewhat different organisation to TfW and Scotrail in their make-up?
 

Bantamzen

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Quite possibly yes, unions are good at playing the rail companies off against each other so if TFW, Scotrail, Merseyrail etc are agreeing 5-10% rises with effectively no strings attached it’ll be extremely challenging for other parts of the industry to link similar rises to increased productivity of any sort.
Except that in the case of most TOCs it is the government not the companies that agree to a rise. And governments have few issues in awarding different rates for different bits, often based on what they might get back.
 

Need2

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As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!
Thankfully people like you have no choice in the matter.
As a taxpayer you have no choice in anything so brush that chip off your shoulder and get on with life.
 

43066

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Because the above mentioned franchise system is broken, and private companies are throwing in the towel because they can't make them work. Its either that or a change in career.

Some of them have been, based on inaccurate revenue forecasts etc., yes. The system was broken when it was fully nationalised.

What’s new?

Will they though? Let's face it the commuter market has changed with a lot more people working from home more often, and the leisure market is much more volatile especially when inflation is rampant. Throw in a load of disruption through industrial action, and a generally crap service we are getting at the moment and a lot of people might just decide to stuff rail transport once and for all. So unless you can find a multi-billionaire happy to pay for a giant train set indefinitely, you might want to rethink that view.

Commuting has changed, accelerating a trend that was also happening before covid - but people are well and truly back. Full and standing trains all last week for me. At the coal face things are increasingly indistinguishable from 2019.

It’s only on here that people seem to think we are carting around fresh air. Very clearly the railway will continue to be funded by the government as an essential service - that might not meet with your approval, but it is what it is.

Its either that or no union. And besides the reps on the ground still do a good job by and large, its just the wannabe politicians around the top table and those that seek their place there that are sodding useless.

Much like ASLEF then? Albeit ASLEF have been rather more effective historically. As have the RMT.

Well duh!! The civil service is kind of a public service so is inevitably going to be publicly funded. The fact that the rail industry, or more precisely the companies that operate it having been struggling to make it work at all. And that should have sent alarm bells throughout your sector.

And unlike the railway it doesn’t bring in revenue of its own.

Incredibly ignorant to imagine that the railway is expected to be some kind of commercially viable going concern? It’s also a public service and requires subsidy
to operate “unprofitable” parts of the network. Again, most people understand this perfectly well, including the current right wing government.

And that's fair enough. But if you want mine, or indeed anyone else's money for playing big boy train sets then get your arse out of your living room, put down your tea and run a bloody service that we paying mugs can rely on.

Not sure what your accusing me of exactly? My bit of it is running perfectly well. And I’m regularly working at times of the day you barely even know exist, thanks very much. With all due respect, you’re a work from home IT bod for the civil service, I’m a railway shift worker. I think I know which of us spends more time idling in our living room!

Because I've seen what happens when unions try to bring down governments.

(Spoiler alert, it doesn't end well for the unions)

Shock horror that isn’t what’s happening here. The fact you suggest it is only shows your own naïvety. Most RMT and ASLEF members I know simply want to defend their standard and living and are voting accordingly. The government are doing a fairly shocking job of things and seem to be bringing themselves down…

Which quite frankly sums things up very neatly. Union activists voting for the very party ideologically opposed to a unionised workforce.

The words turkey & Christmas spring to mind for some reason....

Not necessarily. Conservatism of the sensible variety is about small government and empowerment of the individual. It isn’t in any way incompatible with the concept of trade unionism.

You keep the insults coming, it’s water off a duck’s back. Based on the vitriol directed at the railway by the civil service contingent on here, I’m increasingly enjoying watching the government getting properly stuck in. It helps nobody, having that attitude, but clearly you view my industry and colleagues with utter contempt so there’s an element of schadenfreude.

I'm not sure what you are implying here? I trust that isn't a threat?

What? I wasn’t implying anything other than what I said? Simply that my personality isn’t one for backing down. You are reading far too much into it.

So if your job isn't to deliver a service to paying punters, what exactly is it?

I’m there to drink tea and drive trains - in no particular order. Unlike my guard colleagues I’m not “customer facing”. One of the great things about my job is that we tend not to bow and scrape and do the smarmy “customer service” bit. That might irritate the split-my-ticket-five-ways-expect-the-moon-on-a-stick breed of rivet counting passenger that frequents this forum, but it suits me very well indeed. It won’t be changing!

Just remember that occasionally you might have to actually pick up their kids & parents and take them where they want to go. Because you'll find less kids waving at you if you don't.

Again, not sure what this is meant to mean? You appear to be projecting your dissatisfaction with the railway network onto me.

Oh dear, do you really believe how that is how it works. Well allow me to let you in on a little secret. Governments tend not to like losing money, and tend to start swinging the axe in the direction of areas that haemorrhage cash.

Here we go again with the fear mongering… On current evidence the axe appears to be swinging in your direction!

Nothing qualifies me to say otherwise. It's just glaringly obvious what's coming.

So what’s your solution, exactly? Cowering in fear is for the birds (and the civil service) and it isn’t what we will be doing on the railway!

Now is the time to stand our ground. If we fail, at least we will have tried.

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As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!

Honestly. This attitude helps nobody at all. It really is just a race to the bottom with you!
 

Wolfie

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Thankfully people like you have no choice in the matter.
As a taxpayer you have no choice in anything so brush that chip off your shoulder and get on with life.
People exactly like me are working on this issue in both DfT and HMT.....
 

43066

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Except that in the case of most TOCs it is the government not the companies that agree to a rise. And governments have few issues in awarding different rates for different bits, often based on what they might get back.

And if the government would only leave well alone the railway (especially the TPE and cross country bits of it) would be running a hell of a lot better than it currently is…

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People exactly like me are working on this issue in both DfT and HMT.....

Oh strewth !!!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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So what’s your solution, exactly? Cowering in fear is for the birds (and the civil service) and it isn’t what we will be doing on the railway!

Now is the time to stand our ground. If we fail, at least we will have tried.
Sounds like a speech made by a leader of the International Brigade during the Spanish Civil War.

Just off to to listen to Christy Moore singing "Viva la quinta brigada" on YouTube.
 

Wolfie

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Push yourself a little harder and get something different. It’s worth it.
I went into the public sector quite deliberately because l believe in public service. Without that this country would be a much worse place to live.

Oh, and a degree and postgraduate degree hardly constitute not pushing yourself.

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And if the government would only leave well alone the railway (especially the TPE and cross country bits of it) would be running a hell of a lot better than it currently is…
Happy to do so, including any funding....
 

43066

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Sounds like a speech made by a leader of the International Brigade during the Spanish Civil War.

Just off to to listen to Christy Moore singing "Viva la quinta brigada" on YouTube.

I prefer to think of it as being like the charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava.

At least they tried :D.

Oh, and a degree and postgraduate degree hardly constitute not pushing yourself.

Yawn. Even leaver monkeys like me have those these days.
 

Shrop

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It's about the government simply because that's where the money has to come from.
The sad thing is that Government are simply incapable of taking transport and travel seriously. Whilst the rail industry has done a very thorough job of providing a myriad of regulations (some a lot more harsh than they need to be IMO), the road industry has very little regulation at all in comparison. Speed limits on trains are highly regulated, while speeding on roads is rarely regulated at all, except when you get "unlucky" with an occasional speed enforcement van, or when passing one of those fixed cameras which exist on the tiniest fraction of our road network. Meanwhile car drivers get away with killing around 1500 people every single year and injuring tens of thousands more, and yet they're permitted to continue driving, often without even being re-tested after causing injury. Can you imagine a train driver being permitted to continue driving if his/her negligence had led to even just a collision, let alone injury?

Then there's the fact that technology exists in abundance to prevent following too close to the vehicle in front, ie the cause of countless deaths and injuries, and yet almost nothing is done to force the use of this technology. Quite simply, car driving is seen by Government as pretty much anything goes - compare that the the highly regulated rail industry! This is where Government needs to take a much stronger initiative, ie to level up the road and rail industries.

And yet, how many rail employees will readily take to the car themselves without any thought about supporting their own industry?
Okay, I'm being deliberately provocative, but I also believe that there's some food for thought in this lack of parity between the control of the road and rail industries. Only Government are in a position to do something about this.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Commuting has changed, accelerating a trend that was also happening before covid - but people are well and truly back. Full and standing trains all last week for me. At the coal face things are increasingly indistinguishable from 2019.

It’s only on here that people seem to think we are carting around fresh air. Very clearly the railway will continue to be funded by the government as an essential service - that might not meet with your approval, but it is what it is.
Problem is the guaranteed season ticket revenue stream has been holed below the waterline and the industry needs to be challenged by govt how it can address that deficit and what timeframe it would take. What we are getting is short term measures to cull services and rolling stock where leasing arrangements allow it to do so. Long term the agreement to franchises with vast amounts of new stock will burden the industry with a much a higher cost base through increased leasing charges. This isn't the fault of the workers or those that awarded the franchises its just reality that it will need additional funds and DfT should ring fence that element off until a plan can be formulated to redeploy excess stock to other operators and retire older stock. In the long run modern air conditioned trains, however naff the seats are, will attract repeat cutom.
 

Purple Train

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I am no expert on this issue - I don't work for the railways, I'm not a terribly frequent traveller - but, as a passenger, I'm not particularly bothered by the strikes.
Did I have plans to make a journey on upcoming strike days? Yes.
Am I going to have to alter those plans because of the strike? Yes. But I've only altered my plans to coincide with days that aren't strike days because I want to do as much track as possible in an area that will be closed on strike days. If I wasn't bothered about "track bashing", so to speak, I'd only have to alter my plans insofar as to to arrange alternative transport for a distance of about five miles, in a well-served area of the country.
Yes, I am fully aware this isn't the case for everyone, and I don't particularly want to be drawn into a debate on the matter. But the world is moving on, post COVID, to a world where the railways no longer serve as an essential function, merely an important one that it is possible - just about possible - in most cases, to find alternatives.
While there are obviously huge cuts to the timetables, even the most basic service is still better than that in several other countries, and the fact people are moaning about the low frequencies on particular routes, when actually it's 1tph, shows what a fast, frequent, well-organised network we have during normal timetables.
Again, I appreciate that this isn't the same for everyone, and that some large areas of the country aren't served at all, and, in areas where alternative routes are minimal or non-existent (such as the far north of Scotland), this is a problem. I'm not disputing that. But the view that the strikes are bringing the country to a grinding halt and causing untold misery to a majority of people is bordering on fanciful, in my opinion.
I'm very happy to be corrected on this issue though - as I said, I'm no expert, and really have only my experiences and this forum to go off.
 

43066

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Problem is the guaranteed season ticket revenue stream has been holed below the waterline and the industry needs to be challenged by govt how it can address that deficit and what timeframe it would take. What we are getting is short term measures to cull services and rolling stock where leasing arrangements allow it to do so. Long term the agreement to franchises with vast amounts of new stock will burden the industry with a much a higher cost base through increased leasing charges. This isn't the fault of the workers or those that awarded the franchises its just reality that it will need additional funds and DfT should ring fence that element off until a plan can be formulated to redeploy excess stock to other operators and retire older stock. In the long run modern air conditioned trains, however naff the seats are, will attract repeat cutom.

Albeit the increase in purchases of day returns etc appears to have somewhat overcome the hole left by the loss of season ticket revenues. Undoubtedly this feckless government’s penny pinching has reduced the reliability of the service in certain areas - notably (and worryingly) in parts of the North where car use is a viable alternative to the railway.

It’s a shame so much money has been squandered on plastic trains in recent years, yes.
 

Wolfie

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And people exactly like you still have ZERO input in what happens nationally.

No matter how much tax you (and I) pay.
Really? I think that you will find that middle and senior level civil servants have rather a lot of input....

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Yawn. Even leaver monkeys like me have those these days.
True enough... Some of us got them when they were relatively rare though....
 

Bantamzen

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Commuting has changed, accelerating a trend that was also happening before covid - but people are well and truly back. Full and standing trains all last week for me. At the coal face things are increasingly indistinguishable from 2019.

It’s only on here that people seem to think we are carting around fresh air. Very clearly the railway will continue to be funded by the government as an essential service - that might not meet with your approval, but it is what it is.
I know in my part of the world some services are well and truly packed, but this seems to be as much down to reduced timetables and more cancellations than you can waive a Delay Repay claim at than a return to pre-covid levels. Things are still not back to where they were, and once again a prolonged run of industrial action ain't going to make things better. However interestingly the roads are as busy as they were back in 2019, if not busier. In time people will adjust away from the railways, in much the same way they have from buses if they are forced to through strikes and working to rule. Its just how it plays out.

And unlike the railway it doesn’t bring in revenue of its own.
Well HMRC might beg to differ....

Incredibly ignorant to imagine that the railway is expected to be some kind of commercially viable going concern? It’s also a public service and requires subsidy
to operate “unprofitable” parts of the network. Again, most people understand this perfectly well, including the current right wing government.
I'm not actually in dispute with you over subsidies, I would much prefer the railways to be a fully publicly owned and run service for the punters. But it isn't, it is expected to try to turn a profit. That's not my decision, but that of the government.

Not sure what your accusing me of exactly? My bit of it is running perfectly well. And I’m regularly working at times of the day you barely even know exist, thanks very much. With all due respect, you’re a work from home IT bod for the civil service, I’m a railway shift worker. I think I know which of us spends more time idling in our living room!
Don't be so sure folk in IT don't know the wee small hours. Strangely enough a lot of work takes place when the rest of the workforce are in bo-bo-land. Oh and I know you have a beef about people working from home, I still only do two days a week at home because there is no longer the capacity in our office because we have had to employ more people to deliver front-line services. But this is the reality of the situation, and never labour under the impression that we all like it because I for one don't. It has actually caused me more grief than it could ever solve, both financially & emotionally and even pushed my marriage over the edge. So think on before you start slagging people off for having to do such things, most of us had no choice.

Shock horror that isn’t what’s happening here. The fact you suggest it is only shows your own naïvety. Most RMT and ASLEF members I know simply want to defend their standard and living and are voting accordingly. The government are doing a fairly shocking job of things and seem to be bringing themselves down…
You might want to keep a closer eye on the top table, because I've seen it happen in CPSA / PCS where the top brass become more politically motivated than motivated by the best interests of the membership.

Not necessarily. Conservatism of the sensible variety is about small government and empowerment of the individual. It isn’t in any way incompatible with the concept of trade unionism.
Show me a Tory government that has actively encouraged trade unions.

You keep the insults coming, it’s water off a duck’s back. Based on the vitriol directed at the railway by the civil service contingent on here, I’m increasingly enjoying watching the government getting properly stuck in. It helps nobody, having that attitude, but clearly you view my industry and colleagues with utter contempt so there’s an element of schadenfreude.
So let me get this right, you enjoy watching the "government get stuck in", by which I assume you mean the cutbacks to 2016 levels demanded by the government. Good to know you revel in people potentially losing their jobs, but try to remember that the decision makers behind that are also looking for cutbacks elsewhere. And whilst your industry continues to rely on heavy subsidies, sooner or later that big eye of the Treasury Mordor is going to be looking your industry's way. And you call me naive....

What? I wasn’t implying anything other than what I said? Simply that my personality isn’t one for backing down. You are reading far too much into it.
Fair enough.

I’m there to drink tea and drive trains - in no particular order. Unlike my guard colleagues I’m not “customer facing”.
No you are not. You are there to drive trains, and you wonder why people have a go at the industry. Judging by your & other member's comments here the railway industry really is stuck in another era, and one that the travelling public don't look back at with any fond memories.

One of the great things about my job is that we tend not to bow and scrape and do the smarmy “customer service” bit. That might irritate the split-my-ticket-five-ways-expect-the-moon-on-a-stick breed of rivet counting passenger that frequents this forum, but it suits me very well indeed. It won’t be changing!
You mean the people that use your company's services, and keep the need for people to drive the trains? Maybe we should turn up at the stations banging pots & drawing rainbows for you. Would that make you less condescending?

Again, not sure what this is meant to mean? You appear to be projecting your dissatisfaction with the railway network onto me.
Well that is frankly your own fault, coming across as a grumpy, passenger loathing so & so what else do you expect?

Here we go again with the fear mongering… On current evidence the axe appears to be swinging in your direction!
Yep, some 90K+ jobs to go, to get back to 2016 levels even though workloads are much higher, certainly in my little grubby corner of the civil service. Now I know you believe your industry is bullet-proof, but it really isn't. Just look at all the big ticket projects that have been cancelled. What do you suppose will happen when the bigwig civil servants have no more projects to axe, but ministers need more savings from the railways. You see its a bit like creeping death, you might think you are miles from it but sooner or later it will come after you.

If you really don't like being tied to government decisions then you are going to have to find (or form) a company that is willing to p*** good money after bad. Because from where I'm standing the railway industry does not look in good shape, and is hardly having the investors chasing after it.

So what’s your solution, exactly? Cowering in fear is for the birds (and the civil service) and it isn’t what we will be doing on the railway!
Wait until there isn't a economic crisis, or at least until a general election is looming. Chasing the big prize when the government is only halfway through it's term, and now looking for some big hits to restore confidence within its membership is crazy. Quietly they will be looking at the rail unions and thanking their blessings they will potentially have a scapegoat to go after. I know you don't believe it, perhaps through some misguided belief that the Tories you vote for wouldn't dare come after your industry, but I would bet that deep in the corridors of power plans & perhaps even legalisation are being drawn up to hammer the industry, and the unions with. Hell we even know that a "minimum service level" bill is being considered for the industry.

Now is the time to stand our ground. If we fail, at least we will have tried.
Stand it all you want, I just think its bad timing. Which has been my point all along, because this is exactly why unions like mine have become toothless. The RMT, ASLEF et al all risk becoming the same.

And if the government would only leave well alone the railway (especially the TPE and cross country bits of it) would be running a hell of a lot better than it currently is…
And why are the government having to intervene exactly? Because nobody can make it work, and the industry seems hugely reluctant to adapt to make it do so. We used to be the same in the civil service, and if I'm honest many parts still are. But the bits that do adapt, that do change to become more efficient (and I'm sure you won't be arguing that public services shouldn't strive to be more efficient) are usually the bits that avoid the axe when it comes a-swinging.
 

Islineclear3_1

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IIRC TL weren't among the companies whose drivers voted to strike.
I realise that now but if they run a reduced service...

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I have Wednesday 27th July, Thursday 18 and Saturday 20th August as strike days assuming no deal is forthcoming. For some weird reason, I have Saturday 30th July as a strike day - is this incorrect?

To answer my question, I believe ASLEF are striking on 30th July but would still like this confirmed please
 
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Mowgli

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Yes I was with BR from 1984 and it was always get away with what you can & pretty much the same today. Most (not all) drivers I work with look at when they can get away whether it be through a cut out or a cancellation. Should it be the latter I have never heard anyone even mention the passengers involved.
Harsh but very true. I do wonder about the passengers though (even if I don't mention it!) If a rural is cancelled I think how many will sit at the station for another hour, quietly seething, waiting for the next train and how many are able to make alternative arrangements.
 

JonathanH

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I realise that now but if they run a reduced service...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have Wednesday 27th July, Thursday 18 and Saturday 20th August as strike days assuming no deal is forthcoming. For some weird reason, I have Saturday 30th July as a strike day - is this incorrect?
Saturday 30 July is ASLEF strikes affecting a selection of TOCs.

The other dates are RMT affecting Network Rail staff and a wider selection of TOCs.
 

Drogba11CFC

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I realise that now but if they run a reduced service...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have Wednesday 27th July, Thursday 18 and Saturday 20th August as strike days assuming no deal is forthcoming. For some weird reason, I have Saturday 30th July as a strike day - is this incorrect?

To answer my question, I believe ASLEF are striking on 30th July but would still like this confirmed please
ASLEF are striking but not on GTR or SWR.
 

Carlisle

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Are Merseyrail a somewhat different organisation to TfW and Scotrail in their make-up?
Yes, but they’re all accountable to opposition controlled devolved administrations controlled either by Labour or SNP.
 
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Wyrleybart

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As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!

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Personally l would tie railway funding directly to the state of the general economy. The more damage the strikes do the less money the railway gets!
I would like to point out to you "Wolfie" that this industrial action is not purely about pay increases for all. My former boss capped my salary six years ago because myself and three others were considered to be too highly salaried compared to a new five year structure that was implemented. Even though my union negotiated a two year deal for 2016 and 2017 my boss withheld the 2017 increase from us. Since then two colleagues have retired and one died in service but I have no idea when I will ever get another rise.

More important than my own situation though (our company has already told us there is no money for us) the recent announcement for rail workers is a 2% rise but with the contract raised from 25 to 40 hours per week. This has the effect of me having to work 20 hours a month for free in exchange for a 2% salary increase. Work that out.

That is why rail workers are so upset and have voted so overwhelmingly for industrial action.
How would you fancy working 5 hours a week for nothing - in a stressful job where the DfT is doing it's damndest to wreck the future of trailways in the UK ?
 
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