Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[zwk500]

I assumed as much, but then saw how little use they get in normal running so thought that they might go in the name of "rationalisation".

I expect the cost of removing them, and associated signalling interventions, will be far more expensive than any savings on a couple of hundred meters of OLE.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the connection to the sidings disappear, but a half dozen tension anchors and about 1km of wiring isn't going to cost much in the scheme of things.

 

[73128]

Do passenger trains still get overtaken in the loops here (as the evening loco hauled used to be)?

 

[najaB]

Do passenger trains still get overtaken in the loops here (as the evening loco hauled used to be)?

Not in normal running, AFAIK, but they do if a local stopper is in front of a late-running LNER/XC.

 

[NotATrainspott]

2Y14 starts from Haymarket at 1739 on its way to North Berwick. It's formed of an EMU from Waverley, ex-North Berwick which reverses just west of the station. With wires to the loops at Dalmeny, you could use it as a turnback point for ECML suburban services in the peak. There might not be a big market for calls at South Gyle/Edinburgh Gateway, but being able to reverse in a loop might make it easier to timetable. There aren't any similar turnback points on the other routes west of Edinburgh so reinstating the capability for a heavily EMU suburban network would be useful.

Also, in the unlikely event a BEMU doesn't want to go back onto battery power, having somewhere wired up for it to stay out of trouble seems like a good idea. If the plan is to do through running from the Borders Railway, you'd want somewhere either side of Waverley to turn trains back. To the south-east it's easy as you have Millerhill but these loops are your best bet to the north west.

 

[lachlan]

2Y14 starts from Haymarket at 1739 on its way to North Berwick. It's formed of an EMU from Waverley, ex-North Berwick which reverses just west of the station. With wires to the loops at Dalmeny, you could use it as a turnback point for ECML suburban services in the peak. There might not be a big market for calls at South Gyle/Edinburgh Gateway, but being able to reverse in a loop might make it easier to timetable. There aren't any similar turnback points on the other routes west of Edinburgh so reinstating the capability for a heavily EMU suburban network would be useful.

Also, in the unlikely event a BEMU doesn't want to go back onto battery power, having somewhere wired up for it to stay out of trouble seems like a good idea. If the plan is to do through running from the Borders Railway, you'd want somewhere either side of Waverley to turn trains back. To the south-east it's easy as you have Millerhill but these loops are your best bet to the north west.

Do you think the cross-Edinburgh services are coming back? I presumed they were scrapped due to reliability reasons.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Do you think the cross-Edinburgh services are coming back? I presumed they were scrapped due to reliability reasons.

I could be wrong but would have thought that pathing capacity on Waverley's through platforms may have been a constraint too?

 

[lachlan]

I could be wrong but would have thought that pathing capacity on Waverley's through platforms may have been a constraint too?

I would think so. Given the poor reliability (IIRC due to lack of double track and delays joining the line into Edinburgh) I can see why they wouldn't want those delays being carried over to the Fife services

 

[najaB]

I could be wrong but would have thought that pathing capacity on Waverley's through platforms may have been a constraint too?

Not necessarily. Looking at today as an average weekday, they as often as not terminate and sit on one of the through platforms anyway.

 

[snowball]

According to RAIL magazine #964, p. 17, Network Rail is thinking of installing various types of OLE components on the Forth Bridge and leaving them for several years to see which best survive the wet, windy (and presumably salty?) environment before designing a permanent electrification system.

(Also posted on the Decarbonising Scotland's Railways thread, which has now been consigned to the speculation forum)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Since BEMUs will buy time, this seems a good move.

 

[Falcon1200]

According to RAIL magazine #964, p. 17, Network Rail is thinking of installing various types of OLE components on the Forth Bridge and leaving them for several years to see which best survive the wet, windy (and presumably salty?) environment before designing a permanent electrification system.

Interesting, but I have to wonder; Given its height above the water, is the Forth Bridge environment that much saltier than the existing electrification at Saltcoats and Craigendoran, where the railway is regularly lashed by actual waves ?!!

 

[themiller]

Interesting, but I have to wonder; Given its height above the water, is the Forth Bridge environment that much saltier than the existing electrification at Saltcoats and Craigendoran, where the railway is regularly lashed by actual waves ?!!

Given that the Forth is a salt water body of water, the atmosphere around and above it is salt laden during some weather conditions. That’s enough to initiate corrosion. I can’t remember the exact distance but this extends some miles back from the actual shore.

 

[InOban]

AIR that the decay to the cables of the road bridge was blamed on the salty air?

 

[Falcon1200]

Given that the Forth is a salt water body of water, the atmosphere around and above it is salt laden during some weather conditions. That’s enough to initiate corrosion. I can’t remember the exact distance but this extends some miles back from the actual shore.

Thanks, but surely NR already have experience of saltwater affecting OLE from the locations I mentioned ?

 

[themiller]

Thanks, but surely NR already have experience of saltwater affecting OLE from the locations I mentioned ?

I can only assume that they want to do a trial to discover the kit that lasts longest in that environment rather than accepting that what they put up will need to be replaced at shorter intervals than elsewhere. Sensible if you take into account access for maintenance over the bridge.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thanks, but surely NR already have experience of saltwater affecting OLE from the locations I mentioned ?

Yup Ayrshire coast is very hostile environment for airborne sea salt so you need insulators with longer creepage distances. This is well understood in the electrical world. So perhaps NR are using it to "warm up" people to installing wires across the bridge.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Given that the Forth is a salt water body of water, the atmosphere around and above it is salt laden during some weather conditions. That’s enough to initiate corrosion. I can’t remember the exact distance but this extends some miles back from the actual shore.

Correct. I used the phrase “estuarine environment “ a few years back in a peer reviewed corrosion related paper/journal.

 

[The exile]

Yup Ayrshire coast is very hostile environment for airborne sea salt so you need insulators with longer creepage distances. This is well understood in the electrical world. So perhaps NR are using it to "warm up" people to installing wires across the bridge.

Clearly they know what the effects are on the equipment currently (and previously) installed at Craigendoran and Saltcoats. Installing single examples of various alternatives on the Forth Bridge will give real world examples of how they do precisely there before they’re actually needed.

 

[fgwrich]

Clearly they know what the effects are on the equipment currently (and previously) installed at Craigendoran and Saltcoats. Installing single examples of various alternatives on the Forth Bridge will give real world examples of how they do precisely there before they’re actually needed.

Isn't much of what is installed at Craigendoran (and possible Saltcoats) mostly ex BR Kit anyway? So this could well be testing a newer, more resilient, type of OHLE / Conductor Bar?

 

[themiller]

Isn't much of what is installed at Craigendoran (and possible Saltcoats) mostly ex BR Kit anyway? So this could well be testing a newer, more resilient, type of OHLE / Conductor Bar?

Possibly making sure that what’s proposed and alternatives are up to the conditions after the problems in the Severn tunnel.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Isn't much of what is installed at Craigendoran (and possible Saltcoats) mostly ex BR Kit anyway? So this could well be testing a newer, more resilient, type of OHLE / Conductor Bar?

The kit on Ayrshire coast has stood the test of time and weather

 

[QueensCurve]

South western end of Manchester's runway 23L is at least 1km from the railway.

Pantographs, catenary and associated stanchions are taller than any train. Some red lights will be needed, I reckon.

North Eastern end of 05R-23L (formerly 06L-24R) surely. I believe there is some sort of protection wire which, if broken by a low-flighing aircraft, trips the power and/or drops the signals back to danger.

[edited to remove irrelevant text spuriously pasted]

 

[jadmor]

AIR that the decay to the cables of the road bridge was blamed on the salty air?

There was a problem with the cable wires being exposed during construction, and once the bundles were under load, there was no way to maintain them. The dehumidification project was intended to stop the problem of breaking wiresgetting any worse, but the bridge has permanently lost part of its load bearing capacity, hence the need for a new bridge.
IMHO, I wouldn’t think a single cable on the Forth Bridge would be any more of a problem than one on for example the Border Bridge at Berwick

 

[59CosG95]

Talking of the Forth Bridge...
Planning Application 22/04987/LBC on The City of Edinburgh Council's website shows details of temporary installation of electrification equipment on the Forth Bridge; the drawings contained within are all under the tile of "Forth Bridge Component Testing". This is presumably work to determine how the atmosphere around the Forth Bridge affects any OLE components.

Link: https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.go...s.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RJ7WVSEWJ9P00

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2022 ==

I've also found Application 21/06835/PRN which details that Renwicks Overbridge (O/B 090/018) is to be removed; a temporary compound will be established (if it hasn't already) to the northeast of Gogar Tram Depot.

21/06835/PRN | Proposed removal of Renwicks Overbridge and associated temporary works. | Land To South West Of Meadowfield Farm Turnhouse Road Camm

citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk

 

[snowball]

Talking of the Forth Bridge...
Planning Application 22/04987/LBC on The City of Edinburgh Council's website shows details of temporary installation of electrification equipment on the Forth Bridge; the drawings contained within are all under the tile of "Forth Bridge Component Testing". This is presumably work to determine how the atmosphere around the Forth Bridge affects any OLE components.

as prefigured in #99.

And counter-evidence to those who say that Scottish partial electrification will turn out to be an end state, not just a step towards eventual continuous electrification.

From the covering letter: "As part of this Plan, it is anticipated that the Forth Bridge will be fully electrified by 2030."

Excellent find, many thanks.

 

[Class 170101]

Tad sceptical about that date, seven years away now. I think it will slip a little.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is there any progress on this scheme?

 

[Falcon1200]

Is there any progress on this scheme?

Not exactly a thorough assessment, but travelling from Edinburgh to Queen St last week I could not see any signs of structures, or preparation for them, on the North Lines between Haymarket West Junction and the divergence at Saughton.

 

[zwk500]

Is there any progress on this scheme?

Not sure if this was picked up on: https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/tr...ssenger-dissatisfaction-with-scotrail-3933136

Scottish government intervened to cancel the Christmas enabling works to ease passenger complaints. Obviously this will have disrupted some work but other bits already done will still be useful. There's no mention of this disruption on Scotland's Railway website, with the most recent news being the start of piling in June: https://scotlandsrailway.com/news/piling-work-to-get-underway-to-electrify-line-to-fife

 

[snowball]

Not sure if this was picked up on: https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/tr...ssenger-dissatisfaction-with-scotrail-3933136

Scottish government intervened to cancel the Christmas enabling works to ease passenger complaints. Obviously this will have disrupted some work but other bits already done will still be useful. There's no mention of this disruption on Scotland's Railway website, with the most recent news being the start of piling in June: https://scotlandsrailway.com/news/piling-work-to-get-underway-to-electrify-line-to-fife

According to Rail magazine (some recentish issue, I forget which) and Modern Railways (March, page 17) this dispute seems to have led Chris Gibb to resign only nine months into his job as chief executive of Scottish Rail Holdings, the holding company of Scotrail.