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HS2 Rolling stock

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Peter Sarf

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And Bombardier did really well with the 377/5s, and are doing brilliantly with the 172s aren't they? The 09ts isn't working too well atm either OR you are in one of the crowded areas waiting depending on a unit cascade that keeps getting pushed back by them ;)



OR you are a commuter affected by their crap trains ;)

377/5s had problems with suppliers suffering from the banking crisis not really a technical problem is it. Bombardier bought some suppliers up (sign of a strong company with money behind it). But perhaps the supply industry would have been financially stronger if they had steady orders when they needed it instead of needing to borrow money from banks (that had chickened out) to ramp up stocks/production.

Siemens only has probelems with the 380s in the UK but then they are only rolling out ONE type of train. Bombardier had 377/5s and 172s and Tube stock on the go simultaneously.
 
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MCR247

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Who said they are only rolling out one type of train? You mean one type of UK train actually ;)

Well if they couldn't take the orders why bid ;)
 

Geezertronic

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The 390s didn't have too many teething problems did they (apart from the documented software glitches which resulted in a couple of buffer accidents) and they were put together in Washwood Heath?
 

Peter Sarf

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It would be almost impossible to say.

If we work on the basis that a new bridge (road/rail) cost betweens £10m - £60. And lets say there are only 100 bridges you easily get to say £3bn to replace bridges alone. And then all the tunnels you would have to re-bore. You could easily be talking way over £10bn to upgrade the entire WCML to GC loading gauge. Even so the WCML would still only have a maximum speed of 140mph on the straights even with ERTMS.

Worth bearing the above in mind. I remember that when the WCML was originally electrified one of the main reasons for the high cost (and then cost overruns ?) was the large number of bridges on the WCML. They needed raising/altering to fit in the clearance for 25KV AC. I suspect the altered ones would probably be beyond further alterations. The ECML was cheaper to electrifiy because there are far fewer bridges.

Oh well I suppose that is why the WCML needs replacing by HS2. Trouble is it twists and turns a lot (because it was built so long ago). Another problem is it runs amongst a lot of built up areas with lots of bridges and buildings in the way. If the WCML did not have these problems then it would have far fewer customers. So we would not have a problem to solve !.
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The 390s didn't have too many teething problems did they (apart from the documented software glitches which resulted in a couple of buffer accidents) and they were put together in Washwood Heath?

Your right, sadly their (Washwood Heath's) reward was closure once we ordered more trains from abroad. It was a very high profile product/customer so Althom did their best on it and deserve credit for the 390s. But mainly let down by the complete lack of the railway to run them on. The upgrades promised by Railtrack failed to materialise (was the maximum speed supposed to be 155 or 140 mph ?). The continued tweaking of the WCML is another reason to start from scratch by building HS2.
 

TGV

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Lots of enthusiasts don't seem to like it, but the future is light weight, engine under the floor, high power to weight ratio trains, not ones with huge power cars at each end like the 373s able to draw ~12Mw of power when accelerating in a section of tunnel. Efficiency will be key I believe, as the UK National Grid in the south east is not strong enough to have HS2 running lots and lots of 12Mw trains off a single phase input, especially if you need tunnels out of London, so you will need to use phase balancers as is the case for HS1. That is another great reason for using more efficient modern trains as a starting point than using 373s.

It's not just enthusiasts. The customers have spoken on this issue elsewhere too.

373 do have a maximum continuous rating of 12.2MW, but it is possible they'll have short-term peaks of more. However even if you distribute the traction systems along a train, it'll still be around 10-14MW - whether it's distributed or concentrated, won't make much difference to the load on the national grid.

I wouldn't suggest using them on HS2 though, but it would be useful to have trains that can be run beyond HS2. TGV's aren't "hostage" on LGV's - almost all of them venture beyond the high speed lines - of course they don't have the loading gauge restrictions there that we do, but to have a flexible system and avoid changing trains (which passengers don't like - especially if they end up paying a premium for the high speed portion of their journey) then it would be beneficial to have a through train system. In which case you'd be better off packaging the proven technology you refer to (TGV/ICE) in an envelope that fits on our classic lines.

This has already been done... class 373. So while people are mentioning it - I think the best way to put it, is a next-gen 373 (whether with distributed power or power cars) would be a good place to start for the longer distance services.
 

Peter Sarf

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Who said they are only rolling out one type of train? You mean one type of UK train actually ;)

Well if they couldn't take the orders why bid ;)

When you dont know when/where your next order is coming from you grab what you can. Never mind the consequences because you know you might not be in existence when the consequences come home to roost anyway. Another reason for the customer to have a more steady rate of ordering by the way. Take an interest in the supplier and the customer has more influence on the outcome.
 

RobShipway

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Your right, sadly their (Washwood Heath's) reward was closure once we ordered more trains from abroad. It was a very high profile product/customer so Althom did their best on it and deserve credit for the 390s. But mainly let down by the complete lack of the railway to run them on. The upgrades promised by Railtrack failed to materialise (was the maximum speed supposed to be 155 or 140 mph ?). The continued tweaking of the WCML is another reason to start from scratch by building HS2.

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Last edited by Peter Sarf; 31st January 2011 at 20:36. Reason: Double post prevention system



The WCML should have been taken to 140mph, but Railtrack only managed to raise the line speed to 125mph.
 
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