Chiltern notice

[ChewChewTrain]

I have to say though that having in your previous correspondence apparently used language which suggested that an official of the railway doing their job who caught you bang to rights fare dodging was guilty of racism will likely at worst make your chances of being offered a settlement more difficult and at best potentially result in the settlement level offered being higher.

Indeed. Did the OP make such suggestions at the time they were stopped as well? Such a response would hardly improve the chances of escaping with a penalty fare (and, presumably, the non-discovery of the OP’s previous short-faring). Making such serious insinuations without good evidence is playing with fire (and rightly so, quite frankly).

Too late now, of course, but I agree with others that the OP should de-emphasise the RPI’s alleged behaviour as much as reasonably possible in correspondence going forward.

Do people think there’s any mileage in the OP saying something along the lines of “Having reflected, I don’t think the RPI has done anything wrong, and I would like to apologise for and withdraw the suggestions I have made against them, and ask for any current investigation along those lines to be terminated”? Or would that just make things worse if anything?

 

[twochainz]

Okay, I've reworded the draft:

Hello xxxx,

Thank you for your email and response. I sincerely apologise for the negative impact I’ve caused by committing multiple offenses.I admit that on both occasions where I was stopped as well as the other occasions where I avoided the correct fare, were wrong and damaging to the railway. After researching and understanding that railways across the UK lose 240 million pounds a year due to fare evasion, I apologise for contributing to this number. Recognising this was a crime, I wholeheartedly apologise for my actions.

During this time in reflection, I should have bought tickets prior to boarding, paid the correct fare, and ensured my railcard was renewed and on me. At the time I did not have the proper means to pay in full, which is why I paid what I could. It was irresponsible on my part for not ensuring that these things were in place before making my journeys.I understand that regardless of my situation or circumstances at the time, it was not okay to commit these offenses. Since this time, I have renewed my railcard and arrived at the station early enough to properly buy tickets before boarding trains as well as pay the correct fares in full. I also reviewed the rules, cautions, and laws provided by both the train station and yourselves. I admit that I was in the wrong for short faring/buying discounted tickets and greatly apologise.

In your emailed response, you mentioned the calculated fees due to my wrongdoing totaled 1,XXX.XX. I would greatly appreciate it if you would allow me to cover these costs and fees outside of court. I understand your goal is to recover losses, please allow me to pay this so that those funds can be returned to the railway in full. Thank you for your time and consideration.

____
not sure how the forum works, so I'm tagging just in case....thank you all @AlterEgo @Hadders @Wolfie @WesternLancer

 

[WesternLancer]

Do people think there’s any mileage in the OP saying something along the lines of “Having reflected, I don’t think the RPI has done anything wrong, and I would like to apologise for and withdraw the suggestions I have made against them, and ask for any current investigation along those lines to be terminated”? Or would that just make things worse if anything?

Probably no mileage - just steer clear. Suggested structure of response from AlterEgo is the sort of approach I would think best.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2022 ==

Okay, I've reworded the draft:

Hello xxxx,

Thank you for your email and response. I sincerely apologise for the negative impact I’ve caused by committing multiple offenses.I admit that on both occasions where I was stopped as well as the other occasions where I avoided the correct fare, were wrong and damaging to the railway. After researching and understanding that railways across the UK lose 240 million pounds a year due to fare evasion, I apologise for contributing to this number. Recognising this was a crime, I wholeheartedly apologise for my actions.

During this time in reflection, I should have bought tickets prior to boarding, paid the correct fare, and ensured my railcard was renewed and on me. At the time I did not have the proper means to pay in full, which is why I paid what I could. It was irresponsible on my part for not ensuring that these things were in place before making my journeys.I understand that regardless of my situation or circumstances at the time, it was not okay to commit these offenses. Since this time, I have renewed my railcard and arrived at the station early enough to properly buy tickets before boarding trains as well as pay the correct fares in full. I also reviewed the rules, cautions, and laws provided by both the train station and yourselves. I admit that I was in the wrong for short faring/buying discounted tickets and greatly apologise.

In your emailed response, you mentioned the calculated fees due to my wrongdoing totaled 1,XXX.XX. I would greatly appreciate it if you would allow me to cover these costs and fees outside of court. I understand your goal is to recover losses, please allow me to pay this so that those funds can be returned to the railway in full. Thank you for your time and consideration.

____
not sure how the forum works, so I'm tagging just in case....thank you all @AlterEgo @Hadders @Wolfie @WesternLancer

This revised draft reads much better.

 

[twochainz]

Probably no mileage - just steer clear. Suggested structure of response from AlterEgo is the sort of approach I would think best.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2022 ==


This revised draft reads much better.

thank you, I've revised once more:

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your email and response. I sincerely apologise for the negative impact I’ve caused by committing multiple offenses. I admit that on both occasions where I was stopped as well as the other occasions where I avoided the correct fare, were wrong and damaging to the railway. After researching and understanding that railway companies across the UK lose £240 million a year due to fare evasion, I apologise for contributing to this number. Recognising this was a crime, I whole-heartedly apologise for my actions and take fault.

During this time in reflection, I understand that I should have bought tickets prior to boarding, paid the correct fare, and ensured my railcard was renewed and on me. At the time I did not have the financial means to pay in full, which is why I paid what I could. It was irresponsible on my part for not ensuring that these things were in place before making my journey(s). I understand that regardless of my situation or circumstances at the time, it was not okay to commit these offenses. Since this time, I have renewed my railcard and arrived at the station early enough to properly buy tickets before boarding the train as well as pay the correct fares in full. I also reviewed the rules, cautions, and laws provided by both the train station and yourselves. I admit that I was in the wrong for short faring/buying discounted tickets and greatly apologise. As for the statement I provided, I wanted to clarify that it wasn't the member of staff (RPI officer) that racially profiled me, but one of the reasons for my distressed behaviour. This incident was reported and I'm by all means not justifying my actions. With your investigation and my pattern of short-faring/evasion, I completely understand how the amount of evaded fares added up. I'm keen to reimburse the fares along with administration fees from the investigation.

In your emailed response, you mentioned the calculated fees due to my avoidance totalled £1XXX.XX. I would greatly appreciate it if you would allow me to cover these costs and fees outside of court. I understand your goal is to recover losses and ultimately reduce evasions, please allow me to settle this without court attendance so that these funds can be returned to the railway in full. Learning from all of this, I will continue to follow the rules and ensure this doesn't happen again. I have recently started a new job after many months of struggling and a criminal record would risk me losing it. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Sincerely,

 

[Llanigraham]

thank you, I've revised once more:

Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your email and response. I sincerely apologise for the negative impact I’ve caused by committing multiple offenses. I admit that on both occasions where I was stopped as well as the other occasions where I avoided the correct fare, were wrong and damaging to the railway. After researching and understanding that railway companies across the UK lose £240 million a year due to fare evasion, I apologise for contributing to this number. Recognising this was a crime, I whole-heartedly apologise for my actions and take fault.

During this time in reflection, I understand that I should have bought tickets prior to boarding, paid the correct fare, and ensured my railcard was renewed and on me. At the time I did not have the financial means to pay in full, which is why I paid what I could. It was irresponsible on my part for not ensuring that these things were in place before making my journey(s). I understand that regardless of my situation or circumstances at the time, it was not okay to commit these offenses. Since this time, I have renewed my railcard and arrived at the station early enough to properly buy tickets before boarding the train as well as pay the correct fares in full. I also reviewed the rules, cautions, and laws provided by both the train station and yourselves. I admit that I was in the wrong for short faring/buying discounted tickets and greatly apologise. As for the statement I provided, I wanted to clarify that it wasn't the member of staff (RPI officer) that racially profiled me, but one of the reasons for my distressed behaviour. This incident was reported and I'm by all means not justifying my actions. With your investigation and my pattern of short-faring/evasion, I completely understand how the amount of evaded fares added up. I'm keen to reimburse the fares along with administration fees from the investigation.

In your emailed response, you mentioned the calculated fees due to my avoidance totalled £1XXX.XX. I would greatly appreciate it if you would allow me to cover these costs and fees outside of court. I understand your goal is to recover losses and ultimately reduce evasions, please allow me to settle this without court attendance so that these funds can be returned to the railway in full. Learning from all of this, I will continue to follow the rules and ensure this doesn't happen again. I have recently started a new job after many months of struggling and a criminal record would risk me losing it. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Sincerely,

Drop the penultimate sentence, they won't care about that.

 

[twochainz]

Okay following up with this, I'm a bit confused because 1. I did receive a summons 2. The date of the summons is signed on 16th of June 2022...but I had until the 21st of June to respond (And did respond on that day) Should I try to reach out to them again? My last email with the advice from this forum wasn't responded to

 

[Wethebest838]

Okay following up with this, I'm a bit confused because 1. I did receive a summons 2. The date of the summons is signed on 16th of June 2022...but I had until the 21st of June to respond (And did respond on that day) Should I try to reach out to them again? My last email with the advice from this forum wasn't responded to

Wait, did you email them with the response you wrote? I say this as needs to be a scanned letter emailed if that’s what you didn’t do?

Can you attach the letter you got with personal details covered?

 

[twochainz]

Wait, did you email them with the response you wrote? I say this as needs to be a scanned letter emailed if that’s what you didn’t do?

Can you attach the letter you got with personal details covered?

I emailed the response I wrote, but I didn't handwrite it. Yes, I'll upload it in a minute.

 

[Wethebest838]

I emailed the response I wrote, but I didn't handwrite it. Yes, I'll upload it in a minute.

Just to make sure I’m understanding, did you upload a scanned copy of your letter and emailed it? Not just typed it out and sent it as an email?

 

[twochainz]

Just to make sure I’m understanding, did you upload a scanned copy of your letter and emailed it? Not just typed it out and sent it as an email?

I called the office and was told to email my response and it would be passed to the right person. I received an email response from the prosecutor. I emailed back the last letter I drafted on here back. I never scanned anything in.

 

[Wethebest838]

I called the office and was told to email my response and it would be passed to the right person. I received an email response from the prosecutor. I emailed back the last letter I drafted on here back. I never scanned anything in.

From experience and other letters I’ve seen on here, it does say it has to be a scanned letter.

Chances are they didn’t pass it on which is really silly.

 

[WesternLancer]

From experience and other letters I’ve seen on here, it does say it has to be a scanned letter.

Chances are they didn’t pass it on which is really silly.

I am not sure we can automatically know that for sure. Esp if the OP was told to e-mail when he rang.

@twochainz maybe you should ring them and ask if the e-mail you previously sent was passed to the person dealing with the case / the prosecutor.

Meanwhile, yes you can reach out to them again and again ask for a chance to settle (if Chiltern / TIL this is frequently necessary) - write and e-mail as scanned copy as @Wethebest838 suggests as that can do no harm (I would also print it and post it registered post under the circs)

You can also be prepared to go to the court early and ask to speak with the prosecutor and request a settlement on the day - we have had cases where that has worked. So yes, I would say keep reaching out to them to make your case and request.

 

[twochainz]

I am not sure we can automatically know that for sure. Esp if the OP was told to e-mail when he rang.

@twochainz maybe you should ring them and ask if the e-mail you previously sent was passed to the person dealing with the case / the prosecutor.

Meanwhile, yes you can reach out to them again and again ask for a chance to settle (if Chiltern / TIL this is frequently necessary) - write and e-mail as scanned copy as @Wethebest838 suggests as that can do no harm (I would also print it and post it registered post under the circs)

You can also be prepared to go to the court early and ask to speak with the prosecutor and request a settlement on the day - we have had cases where that has worked. So yes, I would say keep reaching out to them to make your case and request.

So I rang them and the person that answer just confirmed the court date, but did also tell me I can email them again since it's been two weeks and haven't heard anything back from the prosecutor. My worry is that the date is set for less than two weeks time.

I've never been to court, if I do go, where would I find the prosecutor? Sorry for all the questions, I appreciate everyone's time and help.

 

[WesternLancer]

So I rang them and the person that answer just confirmed the court date, but did also tell me I can email them again since it's been two weeks and haven't heard anything back from the prosecutor. My worry is that the date is set for less than two weeks time.

I've never been to court, if I do go, where would I find the prosecutor? Sorry for all the questions, I appreciate everyone's time and help.

OK - so get onto e-mailing / writing to them again (your 1st letter was perfectly good - but probably this time you need to be shorter and just re-iterate the apology and your request that they consider again your request to settle without court action) - do that ASAP.

Ref going to court and speaking to prosecutor - I'm not sure - others may be able to help - but I guess you would need to go to the court on the day - and ask the staff to direct you to that person - be early though - at least 1 or maybe 2 hours ahead of the time your case is listed.

Cases on here we have that have gone to court nearly always seem to make a point to say that the court staff are helpful.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I've never been to court, if I do go, where would I find the prosecutor? Sorry for all the questions, I appreciate everyone's time and help.

Court staff are well aware that a lot of people have never been before (and they know their regular 'customers') so are very helpful. Simply explain the situation and they'll point you in the right direction.

 

[sun123]

From experience and other letters I’ve seen on here, it does say it has to be a scanned letter.

Chances are they didn’t pass it on which is really silly.

Morning, am I right in thinking you are able to add a letter as an attachment to the email?

 

[Wethebest838]

Morning, am I right in thinking you are able to add a letter as an attachment to the email?

Yes. It has to be a scanned copy of the letter sent to their email. If you need assistance, feel free to make your own thread if you haven’t and assistance can be provided

 

[sun123]

Yes. It has to be a scanned copy of the letter sent to their email. If you need assistance, feel free to make your own thread if you haven’t and assistance can be provided

Thanks, I think I have the info I need from other threads whereby other's have had similar issues, I was just a bit confused about the wording from TFI requiring the response to be scanned, as I wasn't sure if that meant I can create my reply in MS Word and just attach that to the email, or I have to print off the Word document, scan it and then attach it which would of course effectively be the same thing

 

[Graham H]

Thanks, I think I have the info I need from other threads whereby other's have had similar issues, I was just a bit confused about the wording from TFI requiring the response to be scanned, as I wasn't sure if that meant I can create my reply in MS Word and just attach that to the email, or I have to print off the Word document, scan it and then attach it which would of course effectively be the same thing

The only reason I can think is that a scan is effectively a picture of the document and cant be edited whereas sending a word doc could be open to editing, I dont believe TFI would do that but I was always advised that its best to send a scan just in case when dealing with any customer issue

 

[sun123]

The only reason I can think is that a scan is effectively a picture of the document and cant be edited whereas sending a word doc could be open to editing, I dont believe TFI would do that but I was always advised that its best to send a scan just in case when dealing with any customer issue

I didn't think of it that way but now you mention it, yes a scan would be better for my/the defendants own peace of mind anyway.

 

[Cowley]

@sun123 - I’ve sent you a pm. If could stay on the subject started by the OP now that’d be appreciated.

 

[sun123]

@sun123 - I’ve sent you a pm. If could stay on the subject started by the OP now that’d be appreciated.

Noted thanks.

 

[twochainz]

Okay, I know not alot of people come back around to tell what's happened. Long story short, I showed up early to court after several emails of trying to settle out of court. They were all refused. I didn't even ask the prosecuter "once" more because he said that CR instructed to only settle in court.

Court gave me a heavily reduced fine and to pay back a fraction of what they were asking.

Lesson learned in the end.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for letting us know. I think you wanted to stay out of court, so this isn't the result you were hoping for, but it sounds as if you are not too unhappy with it.

 

[Wethebest838]

Okay, I know not alot of people come back around to tell what's happened. Long story short, I showed up early to court after several emails of trying to settle out of court. They were all refused. I didn't even ask the prosecuter "once" more because he said that CR instructed to only settle in court.

Court gave me a heavily reduced fine and to pay back a fraction of what they were asking.

Lesson learned in the end.

Out of curiosity, was you charged under byelaw or RoRa?

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Interesting. Advice on this forum invariably states that a conviction will end up being significantly more expensive than a settlement. Presumably, most people seeking advice here would still prefer to settle even if it’s more expensive, but this does make the picture a little more complicated than “Always try for a settlement”.

Thanks, OP, for updating us, and I hope you’re able to draw a line under this and avoid a repetition.

 

[twochainz]

Thanks for letting us know. I think you wanted to stay out of court, so this isn't the result you were hoping for, but it sounds as if you are not too unhappy with it.

Absolutely, I was extremely nervous about going to court. I'm glad I didn't seek out a solicitor in this case because that would have been even more money (things are a bit tight atm anyway). I'm still a bit confused on how or if this will show up on a DBS, but from my understanding I just need to be honest.

Out of curiosity, was you charged under byelaw or RoRa?

I believe RoRa

Interesting. Advice on this forum invariably states that a conviction will end up being significantly more expensive than a settlement. Presumably, most people seeking advice here would still prefer to settle even if it’s more expensive, but this does make the picture a little more complicated than “Always try for a settlement”.

Thanks, OP, for updating us, and I hope you’re able to draw a line under this and avoid a repetition.

Yeah going back and forth with TIL was a headache. I would definitely encourage anyone in this situation to reach out to TIL as much as possible even though they technically don't have to offer a settlement in the first place.

I did learn that they refer a "settlement" as an "administrative disposal". Maybe that can help someone in the future.

 

[XAM2175]

I'm still a bit confused on how or if this will show up on a DBS, but from my understanding I just need to be honest.

I believe RoRa

Convictions made under the Regulation of Railways Act are recordable. You should check the exact details of the charge and conviction to be certain.

 

[twochainz]

I was seen in court and given a fine to pay last August. Unfortunately I wasn't successful in settling out of court with Chiltern. Although going to court, my fine was significantly less than the amount Chiltern originally said was owed. I'm uncertain about if this will show on my record or not? Will a DBS show? I'll try to find the paperwork that says which law it was in the meantime.

 

[Hadders]

It depends which offence you were convicted of. If you can tell us that we can advise further.