What to do about London-Chester

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin often referred to the Chester as the second hourly Liverpool service as this was convenient for many living across the Mersey.

In many ways it is. It was the quickest way from MKC to most of the Merseyrail network, even the Northern Line.

 

[Ken H]

In many ways it is. It was the quickest way from MKC to most of the Merseyrail network, even the Northern Line.

maybe they should run to Rock Ferry, not Chester????

 

[cle]

It is switching to London-Stafford-Crewe-Chester in the medium term, correct? With the MKC-Crewe going to the second Liverpool?

In any case, in the longer term could be worth adding 1-2 more stops if direct trains are longer, and if HS2 indeed will offer a quicker connection via Crewe. Wires would enable a direct HS2 which is the ideal. And I have my doubts about EMP! So there might well be spare paths in time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is switching to London-Stafford-Crewe-Chester in the medium term, correct? With the MKC-Crewe going to the second Liverpool?

It is, yes, so MKC will once again be quicker reached via Lime St.

EMP, sorry?

 

[cle]

It is, yes, so MKC will once again be quicker reached via Lime St.

EMP, sorry?

East Midlands Parkway - in other words, skeptical that that HS2 arm will happen. And thus there would be capacity on the whole route below Crewe/B'ham.

Depends on changes in government though of course, inshallah!

 

[Gareth]

maybe they should run to Rock Ferry, not Chester????

Threaded between 6tph Merseyrail each way? Nah.

That would also do for any North Wales extensions.

 

[Mogz]

What to do about London-Chester?

Restore a GWR service to Paddington via Shrewsbury, Birmingham, Oxford and Reading, operated by IETs!

 

[MattRat]

In regards to OPs post, would 12 car 80x fit between London and Crewe? If so, you could couple an 805 and 807 together, so Scotland or whatever other service you wanted to run would have 7 cars instead of 5.

 

[cle]

In regards to OPs post, would 12 car 80x fit between London and Crewe? If so, you could couple an 805 and 807 together, so Scotland or whatever other service you wanted to run would have 7 cars instead of 5.

Via Birmingham? Doesn’t work for the Chester route. Or future fast Glasgows would need a Crewe stop adding - plan it reverting to first stop Warrington.

But in theory that would fit at Crewe. Would mean calls at MKC/Stafford would be needed elsewhere. The fast Glasgow shouldn't be further slowed.

I would probably say do 2x805 and send one to Liverpool/Blackpool/Lancaster. And drop Warrington and Wigan from the Glasgows.

 

[JonathanH]

I would probably say do 2x805 and send one to Liverpool/Blackpool/Lancaster.

Would you also suggest running at a lower frequency to take account of the fleet size? With 13 805s that isn't going to work every hour, particularly if Shrewsbury / North Wales is still to be served.

 

[Philip]

Via Birmingham? Doesn’t work for the Chester route. Or future fast Glasgows would need a Crewe stop adding - plan it reverting to first stop Warrington.

But in theory that would fit at Crewe. Would mean calls at MKC/Stafford would be needed elsewhere. The fast Glasgow shouldn't be further slowed.

I would probably say do 2x805 and send one to Liverpool/Blackpool/Lancaster. And drop Warrington and Wigan from the Glasgows.

Why is it important that the Glasgow services don't get further slowed? These services aren't as busy as the Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool services, so you could argue it is the latter three which shouldn't be picking up extra stops in place of the Chester.

 

[JonathanH]

Why is it important that the Glasgow services don't get further slowed?

End to end journey times are important for railways to be competitive on the route against other means of travel.

 

[cle]

Would you also suggest running at a lower frequency to take account of the fleet size? With 13 805s that isn't going to work every hour, particularly if Shrewsbury / North Wales is still to be served.

Well I would think more units could come in future, I don't know the amounts - this is the speculative forum and addl unit options are more feasible than most civils! Shrewsbury could go tbh.

And yes, Glasgow times shouldn't be slowed any more. The idea is to be more competitive with flights, not less. We do have the slows via B'ham which are more of a mail train. The London-Glasgow fast should ideally have 1-3 stops max, like the faster Edinburghs do. And what HS2 will one day offer.

 

[JonathanH]

this is the speculative forum

Yes, but looking at the lead time on the 805s, it would take some time for them to become available so is a longer term solution if it can be afforded. (They could be straight electrics as well.)

Putting Warrington and Wigan stops in a Blackpool train and running the Glasgow fast to Preston is a good idea on paper but interested if there is year round demand to do it.

addl unit options are more feasible than most civils!

Indeed.

 

[cle]

Putting Warrington and Wigan stops in a Blackpool train and running the Glasgow fast to Preston is a good idea on paper but interested if there is year round demand to do it.

The seasonality is the Blackpool, and even that I am dubious about running to direct from London. It's a handy stub for Preston, and could happily go to Lancaster instead - which has better year round demand and onward connections to the WCML (it might pull up 5 mins before a fast to Scotland for instance - although Preston could cover this too).

 

[irish_rail]

What to do about London-Chester?

Restore a GWR service to Paddington via Shrewsbury, Birmingham, Oxford and Reading, operated by IETs!

Its a nice idea to be fair, no chance on the current railway, but would provide a bit of competition to both XC and avanti, though I suspect most journies wouldn't be London to Chester, but say Oxford to Chester , and would provide competition also to TFW between Birmingham and Chester / North Wales. We can but dream anyway......

 

[JonathanH]

would provide competition also to TFW between Birmingham and Chester / North Wales

I thought the railway was trying to move away from competition with itself.

 

[Esker-pades]

The new Dec '22 structure allows for a 1tph Chester path.

Remember that the new stock to replace the 221s can't tilt, so the further it runs along the WCML, the more time it looses. Bar 1tpd to/from Blackpool, I don't believe any 80x's will get past Weaver.

The changes to the paths north of Preston are pretty limited. Based on 390 v 397 timings, the loss is only ~5 mins, but that could well be the difference between getting a path or not through the Glasgow suburban area, or Edinburgh.

Basically......don't combine the Wales and Scotland services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can I suggest an hourly service to Chester, occasionally extending into North Wales, with a bi mode?

It’s what they were bought for, after all.

 

[Esker-pades]

Can I suggest an hourly service to Chester, occasionally extending into North Wales, with a bi mode?

It’s what they were bought for, after all.

outrageous

 

[HSTEd]

Once HS2 arrives I think a lot of people from Chester and North Wales for London would change at Crewe, it will be enormously faster.

 

[Bald Rick]

Once HS2 arrives I think a lot of people from Chester and North Wales for London would change at Crewe, it will be enormously faster.

no doubt, but that’s another 7- 8 years away.

 

[Neptune]

Why is it important that the Glasgow services don't get further slowed? These services aren't as busy as the Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool services, so you could argue it is the latter three which shouldn't be picking up extra stops in place of the Chester.

Do you work for the airline industry? They would love that suggestion.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why is it important that the Glasgow services don't get further slowed? These services aren't as busy as the Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool services, so you could argue it is the latter three which shouldn't be picking up extra stops in place of the Chester.

I think Avanti would take issue with that statement. In my experience it is the Birmingham’s that are the least busy of those three. Glasgow trains are routinely full Thursday / Friday / Saturday / Sunday / Monday.

 

[Some guy]

Why is it important that the Glasgow services don't get further slowed? These services aren't as busy as the Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool services, so you could argue it is the latter three which shouldn't be picking up extra stops in place of the Chester.

You’ve definitely not been on the Euston Glasgow services recently. Some are that busy passengers are putting themselves on the floors in the vestibules the fact it lost its extra Birmingham- Glasgow service is still a shambles

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2022 ==

The new Dec '22 structure allows for a 1tph Chester path.

Remember that the new stock to replace the 221s can't tilt, so the further it runs along the WCML, the more time it looses. Bar 1tpd to/from Blackpool, I don't believe any 80x's will get past Weaver.

The changes to the paths north of Preston are pretty limited. Based on 390 v 397 timings, the loss is only ~5 mins, but that could well be the difference between getting a path or not through the Glasgow suburban area, or Edinburgh.

Basically......don't combine the Wales and Scotland services.

Yeah it will most likely be 1 train per day to get Preston drivers and train managers trained on them in case of an emergency

 

[Philip]

You’ve definitely not been on the Euston Glasgow services recently. Some are that busy passengers are putting themselves on the floors in the vestibules the fact it lost its extra Birmingham- Glasgow service is still a shambles

Once the Birmingham-Glasgow service is restored then the London-Trent Valley-Glasgow services will settle down a bit - and I bet at least half of the passengers who board at Euston have usually left the train by the time it leaves Lancaster.

 

[Some guy]

Once the Birmingham-Glasgow service is restored then the London-Trent Valley-Glasgow services will settle down a bit - and I bet at least half of the passengers who board at Euston have usually left the train by the time it leaves Lancaster.

Nope especially now with school holidays in Scotland and then the soon school holidays in England. So as loads get off at Lancaster and Preston even more jump on

 

[A S Leib]

Can I suggest an hourly service to Chester, occasionally extending into North Wales, with a bi mode?

It’s what they were bought for, after all.

Are there still plans to have Avanti services to Llandudno, or have they been cancelled?

 

[dk1]

Amazing that with one cancellation the following Euston service is full & standing from Central Station. If you go back a some years every 2 hours was the norm & there would be plenty of spare capacity from Scotland. The rail share of that market has come on leaps & bounds since VHF & the jump to hourly a few years after that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Amazing that with one cancellation the following Euston service is full & standing from Central Station. If you go back a some years every 2 hours was the norm & there would be plenty of spare capacity from Scotland. The rail share of that market has come on leaps & bounds since VHF & the jump to hourly a few years after that.

yes, effectively London - Glasgow rail traffic on the WCML has doubled, albeit some has come off the ECML.

London - Glasgow air traffic has been relatively constant for some time, covid excepted.