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MG11 received from Thameslink
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Snow1964
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A MG11 is a (non police) typed witness statement,
usually would have been given a copy at the time.
usually would have been given a copy at the time.
Do you know when I would expect to hear from them regarding this? I.e them wanting my Versiom of events.
Thanks for the reply.
Snow1964
Veteran Member
Anything upto 6 months, although if they want to charge you they will need to leave a bit of time for your version, so probably hear in 1-5 months. Depends on how busy they are.
Unfortunately unless they gave you the case number, and their contact details, contracting them in advance is difficult as probably go astray. (Although legally getting a signed for delivery to the registered office should work, bound to be lost internally)
Unfortunately unless they gave you the case number, and their contact details, contracting them in advance is difficult as probably go astray. (Although legally getting a signed for delivery to the registered office should work, bound to be lost internally)
Do they usually look to charge? It was for fare dodging and I denied it in the MG11. However, I do not want to go through the stress of a prosecution.
You say you denied it? Did you actually do it?
Furthermore, were there ticketing facilities at the station where you boarded? Where were you going to and from? What, if any, ticket did you hold?
I did deny it, I did do it. There were. I was going from Luton to London Bridge and only had a ticket from Luton to Luton airport parkway. The ticket inspector suspected that I was coming from London ( which I was). And claimed that they were going to check CCTV and investigate further.
You have broken section 5(3) (a) or (b) or the Regulation of Railways act 1889.
Alternatively they may wish to go for the railway byelaws:
However there are some get out clauses to this, namely
In practice it'll still be a few hundred pounds and a criminal record if you plead or are found guilty. Therefore you want to avoid this matter getting anywhere near a court. Your best bet is to wait for the letter. Then when it comes, reply promptly with a concise, factual, yet apologetic letter offering to pay the outstanding fare and any costs incurred. Govia Thameslink railways do often offer out of court settlements if you ask and haven't come to their attention before, but it's their call. If they decide to prosecute they are entitled to and you will be found guilty. But for now there's not a lot you can do other than wait for the dreaded letter. If you are moving, as usual, set up an official Royal Mail redirection. Don't rely on any gentleman's agreement to forward post from the next person at the address. Then, when it arrives, seek further advice from us. There's not a lot you can do for now.
Please note this is a recordable offence with a fine not exceeding £1000 and for the second or subsequent offence up to three months in prison (extremely rare).
Alternatively they may wish to go for the railway byelaws:
However there are some get out clauses to this, namely
But apart from that it's strict liability. You don't need to have intended not to pay, the fact you found yourself on a train with an invalid ticket makes you guilty.
In practice it'll still be a few hundred pounds and a criminal record if you plead or are found guilty. Therefore you want to avoid this matter getting anywhere near a court. Your best bet is to wait for the letter. Then when it comes, reply promptly with a concise, factual, yet apologetic letter offering to pay the outstanding fare and any costs incurred. Govia Thameslink railways do often offer out of court settlements if you ask and haven't come to their attention before, but it's their call. If they decide to prosecute they are entitled to and you will be found guilty. But for now there's not a lot you can do other than wait for the dreaded letter. If you are moving, as usual, set up an official Royal Mail redirection. Don't rely on any gentleman's agreement to forward post from the next person at the address. Then, when it arrives, seek further advice from us. There's not a lot you can do for now.
It’s difficult for us to advise without the full details of the case, but lying about your activities is worse than staying silent. I do not advise doubling down on any lie when faced with the paperwork from the train company.
We really need more details about your case to be able to advise but follow-up letters asking for your version of events before they decide whether or not to prosecute typically take up to 8 weeks to arrive, although they can take up to six months.
swt_passenger
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Do you not mean the inspector either suspected you were going to London, or that he believed you had come from London earlier the same day? I assume you were checked somewhere south of Luton Airport Parkway?
Did you get asked how you intended to get through the barriers at your destination?
He believed that I was coming in from London, rather than from parkway which I had a ticket for. I jumped in from London Bridge.
He asked me how I got in from parkway and I said I just showed the attendant and he let me through.
Obvious question being, how did you get through the barriers there?
I had a ticket from London Bridge to Blackfriars. So I did not have a valid ticket for about half my journey
Did you have both your tickets as e-tickets?
Yes
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He also took a photo of my Luton - Luton airport e ticket.
This makes matters more serious. An out of court settlement is still possible, but you've been found doing what is known as 'doughnutting', ie. leaving a validity hole in the middle. Because of the steps taken to avoid detection, it's viewed as far more dishonest than not having a ticket at all.
As you had etickets, did you buy them from a popular app or website using the same account? They may be able to figure out if you've done this regularly and if you have, they're less likely to be lenient and/or may demand more as an out of court settlement.
In which case it's trivial for them to investigate purchases on your account and find out what you've done. When they write to you, you need to apologise and offer to pay any of their costs to settle the matter. I would seriously advise against continuing to lie if they write to you.
swt_passenger
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Well now I’m confused by post #7, where you wrote that you were making a journey from Luton to London Bridge, ie a southbound journey. That’s about 2 miles ticketed out of 33, rather than half…
If they also know that you held a ticket from London Bridge to Blackfriars, they’ll draw the obvious conclusion, as @mikeg just mentioned, as it’s a basic method of fare evasion that they see all the time. If you’re a regular traveller on the route how‘s your purchasing history going to look when they check it?
I’ve done it a few times. Maybe 5/6. Other than that I’ve paid for the full fare for 3 years. Is it worth showing them my previous history of full payments if they write to me? Also, if I apologise etc do you think there’s a high chance they’ll go for an out of court settlement?
swt_passenger
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I can’t answer that, but there are definitely other people here who have a good idea of what GTR usually do.
Haywain
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I cannot see how this would be any help, so not worth bothering.
Yes, GTR do seem to settle in most cases. Ultimately, they get more money for less work by doing so.
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To be clear, were you travelling from London to Luton? If so, you had tickets covering just over 2 miles of a 33 mile journey so a bit less than half.
I had a ticket from London Bridge to Blackfriars, and one from Luton to Luton parkway. So I’d say covering 6 minutes out of 52. Not sure about the miles.
As others have said this is informally called doughnutting, and is one of the easiest types of evasion to detect.
Unfortunately, you compounded the fare evasion by lying about it, and that you have done this before. Showing a history of paying the correct fare until you decided to act dishonestly is of no value, a bit like being caught shoplifting six times and claiming you have actually bought stuff in the shop before!
Best advice is to sit tight, and wait for the letter to arrive. Once it does, post it here (redact your own details!) and we will be able to give more specific advice. GTR tend to go for settlement out of court, but with the aggravating factors of repeated offending as well as lying about it, your chances have shrunk a bit. So it will depend very much on how you approach this from here.
Though if you were travelling from London Bridge to Luton, the fact you held a ticket from Luton to Luton Parkway is irrelevant as it covers none of the journey you made. It does however, show a very clear intent to avoid payment so holding that ticket doesn't work in your favour.
Haywain
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And your actual journey was London Bridge to Luton Airport Parkway?
Luton to London bridge
Luton to London Bridge or London Bridge to Luton?
I sent from Luton to London Bridge in the morning, and was coming back when I was stopped at the gate.
N0G83
Member
Were these Return E-tickets or Singles?
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