Can a ticket clerk give permission to board train without ticket

[dcbwhaley]

There was a queue of impatient people at the ticket office as some one was planning a complex journey in the five minutes before the train arrived. The clerk reassured as that we could buy a ticket on the train.
Which I did. But would a revenue protection officer accept that as an excuse for boarding without a ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a queue of impatient people at the ticket office as some one was planning a complex journey in the five minutes before the train arrived. The clerk reassured as that we could buy a ticket on the train.
Which I did. But would a revenue protection officer accept that as an excuse for boarding without a ticket?

These days it is unlikely that they would accept it. Such permission really needs to be given in writing. Some TOCs have "Back on Track vouchers" for that purpose, a system which could do with being universal.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Man on the platform said...

If the employee is considered an officer of the railway he could give permission to travel, the difficulty will be proving it after the fact, always better to get it in writing of some sort incase they decide to deny doing so at a later date

 

[Efini92]

These days it is unlikely that they would accept it. Such permission really needs to be given in writing. Some TOCs have "Back on Track vouchers" for that purpose, a system which could do with being universal.

Isn’t there something in the passenger charter about booking office queues? If it’s more than a certain amount you can buy on board?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t there something in the passenger charter about booking office queues? If it’s more than a certain amount you can buy on board?

No, there is not such an entitlement. There is a suggestion of how long one should have to wait, but no right to board if it takes longer. It's just a target for the operator.

 

[Haywain]

Isn’t there something in the passenger charter about booking office queues? If it’s more than a certain amount you can buy on board?

No, there is something that says that they will aim to keep queues below a certain time, but it can't be taken as permission to buy onboard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2022 ==

But would a revenue protection officer accept that as an excuse for boarding without a ticket?

I think that if you were the only person that this applied to it would potentially be a problem but it would be likely be different if there were a number of people in the same situation.

 

[Efini92]

No, there is not such an entitlement. There is a suggestion of how long one should have to wait, but no right to board if it takes longer. It's just a target for the operator.

I seem to recall it being mentioned years ago, just checked and it’s not in there.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Man on the platform said...

If the employee is considered an officer of the railway he could give permission to travel, the difficulty will be proving it after the fact, always better to get it in writing of some sort incase they decide to deny doing so at a later date

If he had time to write a chit he would have time to sell a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If he had time to write a chit he would have time to sell a ticket.

Not necessarily. A booking office could easily have pre-printed ones for this sort of eventuality.

The alternative at a single-manned station with no TVM (see most of Merseyrail) is a sign saying something like "If you have a complex request and there is a queue of people needing to travel on the next train, please bear with us and don't be offended if we ask you to step aside for a short time while we serve them. Our quietest times, best for such requests, are <times>".

 

[Snow1964]

Man on the platform said...

If the employee is considered an officer of the railway he could give permission to travel, the difficulty will be proving it after the fact, always better to get it in writing of some sort incase they decide to deny doing so at a later date

Rather helps the case when lots of passengers can’t get tickets before boarding. Becomes one persons word against many.

 

[bramling]

There was a queue of impatient people at the ticket office as some one was planning a complex journey in the five minutes before the train arrived. The clerk reassured as that we could buy a ticket on the train.
Which I did. But would a revenue protection officer accept that as an excuse for boarding without a ticket?

Not something which could be relied upon. I know someone who had issues with this - went to a booking office to buy a PRIV ticket and was told “you don’t need to buy a ticket mate, guard will be happy with your PRIV”, then tried again on the train and guard wasn’t interested, then had a big problem with revenue staff upon arrival at the terminus. CCTV might add weight to credibility, but again can’t be relied upon.

 

[faltskog36abba]

About 20+ years ago, We were waiting in a queue at Manchester Victoria with only one ticket office open. There were ten or more in the queue and we had been there ten minutes. We spoke to a dispatcher and explained the situation-He said hop on and explain to the guard, Explain we did and we were kicked off at Ashton.

 

[dcbwhaley]

These days it is unlikely that they would accept it. Such permission really needs to be given in writing. Some TOCs have "Back on Track vouchers" for that purpose, a system which could do with being universal.

Could the RPO nort telephone the ticket office to verify that they gave permission? Or is that too customer friendly for them

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the RPO nort telephone the ticket office to verify that they gave permission? Or is that too customer friendly for them

That one.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Once happened to me at Urmston station when attempting to buy tickets into Manchester Oxford Road.

The guy in front of me in the queue was attempting to buy an advance ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Central on a Sunday which, as I recall, seemed to require four (!) reservations en route, and the transaction was taking some time to be processed.

As the half hourly train into Manchester was just arriving down at platform level (where else?!) the ticket clerk suggested that I instead pay on board. The guard wasn't overly impressed that I didn't already have any tickets, but sold me what was needed on being advised of the delay upstairs at the ticket window at Urmston.

 

[Watershed]

Legally speaking, yes, virtually any member of staff can give authority to board without a ticket. Certainly a member of ticket office staff would have the requisite apparent authority.

The problem would be proving that you were given the permission if you came across a conductor/RPI who claimed you were lying. If you don't have anything in writing and you're the only person in your position, it may be harder to do so.

Of course this is precisely the kind of situation which Permits to Travel and Passenger's Charter queuing times were designed to address. But slowly, bit by bit, these protections have been watered down and now we are in the farcical and indefensible situation where people sometimes have to miss trains because the railway would rather criminalise its customers than provide adequate ticketing facilities.

 

[Starmill]

Could the RPO nort telephone the ticket office to verify that they gave permission? Or is that too customer friendly for them

This does happen from time to time. It's sometimes the formal method. Also I once used a help point when the ticket machine wasn't working, and they gave me a case reference which had my name and journey details recording that I'd been given permission to board. Of course that may not strictly be necessary if the only machine cannot sell the required ticket but it was permission all the same.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The problem would be proving that you were given the permission if you came across a conductor/RPI who claimed you were lying. If you don't have anything in writing and you're the only person in your position, it may be harder to do so.

Indeed, this was the concern that I had on the occasion in question.

 

[Fokx]

Could the RPO nort telephone the ticket office to verify that they gave permission?

You’re assuming that they have the number in the first place let alone the correct one.

 

[Horizon22]

This is the sort of situation where proactive management (or even from the ticket office if possible) would be to someone in Control to state "It's manic here, I'm sure people will be travelling without tickets".

Then a message is sent out by control to that effect so revenue enforcement / guards are aware en-route and can sell a ticket (dependent on TOC's rules about "buy before you board). Even TOCs that do have a penalty fare scheme, often allow people to travel on pre-booked tickets when TVM queues get manic.

The issue is always clarifying this was formal permission rather than "your mate at X allowed me to get on" which is an excuse as old as time - hence the control messaging route being the best IMO. As an aside, I would never use a ticket office unless I had to, especially in the summer and seek alternative methods of ticket buying with no possibility of queues!

 

[Edsmith]

There was a queue of impatient people at the ticket office as some one was planning a complex journey in the five minutes before the train arrived. The clerk reassured as that we could buy a ticket on the train.
Which I did. But would a revenue protection officer accept that as an excuse for boarding without a ticket

Similar thing at Dartford a while ago, ticket windows closed and a ridiculous queue at the TVM and a staff member opened the barriers and waved everyone through saying "pay at your destination, any problems tell them to ring Bob (or whatever his name was) at Dartford".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2022 ==

Isn’t there something in the passenger charter about booking office queues? If it’s more than a certain amount you can buy on board?

There should be, how long before their train arrives are people expected to be at the station?

 

[Watershed]

There should be, how long before their train arrives are people expected to be at the station?

This is the problem - whilst some Passenger's Charters still give a figure (it's generally still the "3 minutes at off-peak times and 5 minutes at peak times" used in BR days), I don't think any say that you can buy onboard if you've had to wait longer than this. Add on the possibility of having to cross the line before the level crossing shuts, and you may have to turn up 20 minutes or more before the train leaves to guarantee being able to board.

It's such an avoidably poor experience, and it simply goes to demonstrate the indifference that exists amongst those in charge.

 

[miklcct]

This is the problem - whilst some Passenger's Charters still give a figure (it's generally still the "3 minutes at off-peak times and 5 minutes at peak times" used in BR days), I don't think any say that you can buy onboard if you've had to wait longer than this. Add on the possibility of having to cross the line before the level crossing shuts, and you may have to turn up 20 minutes or more before the train leaves to guarantee being able to board.

It's such an avoidably poor experience, and it simply goes to demonstrate the indifference that exists amongst those in charge.

A passenger buying a season ticket can easily take more than 10 minutes at the ticket office. I have encountered that before when there was only one window opened as I was trying to get a change of route excess for a future travel.

 

[Watershed]

A passenger buying a season ticket can easily take more than 10 minutes at the ticket office. I have encountered that before when there was only one window opened as I was trying to get a change of route excess for a future travel.

Very true. In such cases, anyone who has been waiting longer than the relevant Charter durations should have the right to buy onboard - but as this isn't the case, it's clear that the Charter durations are mere hot air.

Of course in your particular example there's no obligation to obtain such an excess prior to boarding, unlike the obligation to obtain a ticket.

 

[Tallguy]

The entrance to platform 3 at High Wycombe has a part time ticket office and a single TVM which is frequently broken or has a long queue to use it. When the ticket office is shut and the machine is broken I use the intercom to advise the main ticket office at Wycombe that the TVM is broken and they usually say board the train and pay at your destination. I’ve never had a problem with doing it - yet!

 

[Huntergreed]

So, in theory, despite having permission to board without a valid ticket you could be prosecuted due to a lack of proof?

If so, that's an extremely anti-customer stance (although not overly surprising).

 

[Watershed]

So, in theory, despite having permission to board without a valid ticket you could be prosecuted due to a lack of proof?

If so, that's an extremely anti-customer stance (although not overly surprising).

You could be prosecuted because an RPI thinks you gave them a funny look!

The power imbalance - with TOCs being able to instigate prosecutions on a whim, at effectively nil cost, yet passengers having to fork out thousands if they want to properly defend themselves - is absurd. And unless proper safeguards and oversight are put in place, the situation will stay that way.

 

[43066]

So, in theory, despite having permission to board without a valid ticket you could be prosecuted due to a lack of proof?

If so, that's an extremely anti-customer stance (although not overly surprising).

It isn’t a “customer service” issue, as such, because a criminal offence has, prima facie, been committed. Otherwise everyone trying it on would say “so and so gave me permission”.

If you were nicked outside Tesco, with a bottle of wine you hadn’t paid for, would saying: “the man in the shop said I could take it” really cut the mustard?

 

[yorkie]

It isn’t a “customer service” issue, as such, because a criminal offence has, prima facie, been committed. Otherwise everyone trying it on would say “so and so gave me permission”.

If you were nicked outside Tesco, with a bottle of wine you hadn’t paid for, would saying: “the man in the shop said I could take it” really cut the mustard?

Is there a byelaw stating that no offence is committed if an authorised person gives the passenger permission to take goods without payment?

If the answer is "no" then it's another example of an analogy that doesn't quite work, to add to the (very long) list!

In fact any analogies between railway ticketing and supermarket shopping have no value (apart from for amusement or perhaps moralistic purposes)

 

[Huntergreed]

It isn’t a “customer service” issue, as such, because a criminal offence has, prima facie, been committed.

By definition, a criminal offence has not been committed if permission has been given:

17. Compulsory ticket areas
no person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket
a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person
no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

OR

in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel
a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person
no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

(https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)

Therefore no offence has been committed.

I find it so wrong that the UK railways have developed such an 'anti-customer' approach towards running the railway where, even if you have been given permission, a rogue RPI can come along and a prosecution may well succeed.