Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[craigybagel]

Can I ask how many guards are meant to be on the MK4s? On at least 2 journeys now, I have had 2 guards with 1 often just sitting at the back and the other controlling the doors from the 2nd door from the rear. Is there meant to be 2 guards or just how it's happened? If so, why more guards than normal.

There are currently 2 guards booked to be on all services booked to call at Abergavenny in the down (southbound) direction, as the platform there is too short so the rear most door needs to be locked out. This is a temporary fix until SDO is introduced later in the year.

All other platforms that are booked to see MKIVs can fit all 4 cars on the platform - albeit with the loco and/or DVT hanging off the end in some locations. That is not an option at Abergavenny owing to a signal at the end of the platform there.

 

[markymark2000]

There are currently 2 guards booked to be on all services booked to call at Abergavenny in the down (southbound) direction, as the platform there is too short so the rear most door needs to be locked out. This is a temporary fix until SDO is introduced later in the year.

All other platforms that are booked to see MKIVs can fit all 4 cars on the platform - albeit with the loco and/or DVT hanging off the end in some locations. That is not an option at Abergavenny owing to a signal at the end of the platform there.

AHH, thank you. Uncommon thing to see on the railways so thank you for finding that out.

 

[craigybagel]

AHH, thank you. Uncommon thing to see on the railways so thank you for finding that out.

No problem. It's a pretty rare situation really with a combination of a platform that can't be lengthened and a station that's too busy to be skipped, and until SDO is installed this is the only practical workaround.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 07/07 5Q86 37510 1020 Doncaster Works - Eastleigh TRSMD dep 1000 82230 11322 10301 12316 12452 12210
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04089/2022-07-07/detailed

0E23 37510 0601 Derby RTC - Doncaster dep 0557

 

[43301]

Is anyone able to say whether the 'black' sets will enter service in that livery, or are they planning to paint them first? I've seen various suggestions but nothing confirmed.

They'll also need to paint the Virgin/LNER livery Mk4s at some point - if they are in a similar state to those still with LNER then the vinyls will be looking pretty tired now!

 

[tomuk]

I do find the apparent reluctance to paint the Mk4s as odd. TfW took perfectly serviceable 150/158/175s out of service to paint\vinyl them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do find the apparent reluctance to paint the Mk4s as odd. TfW took perfectly serviceable 150/158/175s out of service to paint\vinyl them.

The MK4s are much closer to TfW's colour scheme - the correct white and red, only the wrong livery pattern - the ex Arriva stock was gaudy shades of turquoise.

 

[43301]

The MK4s are much closer to TfW's colour scheme - the correct white and red, only the wrong livery pattern - the ex Arriva stock was gaudy shades of turquoise.

Isn't TFW's livery a light grey rather than white? Not sure whether the shade of red is the same.

The issue with the Mk4s is that they just look tatty now - hardly the image they are wanting to portray for their 'premium' service, surely?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Isn't TFW's livery a light grey rather than white? Not sure whether the shade of red is the same.

The issue with the Mk4s is that they just look tatty now - hardly the image they are wanting to portray for their 'premium' service, surely?

The inherited fleet definitely have white, but I believe the FLIRTS have grey. The 197s look white but I think they're a very pale grey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The MK4s are much closer to TfW's colour scheme - the correct white and red, only the wrong livery pattern - the ex Arriva stock was gaudy shades of turquoise.

Though the inconsistency with the locos and DVTs just looks cheap. They look like cobbled together depot scratch sets.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Though the inconsistency with the locos and DVTs just looks cheap. They look like cobbled together depot scratch sets.

I agree. The naked first class head cushion and ex LNER reservation displays still with ECML destinations on also make them look a bit rubbish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. The naked first class head cushion and ex LNER reservation displays still with ECML destinations on also make them look a bit rubbish.

I was quite shocked to see the latter. That sort of "minimum effort" approach is what you see when a developing country's railway, bus or ferry operator buys a load of knackered old coaches/buses/ships on the cheap (e.g. the Tirana ex-Paris buses running around with their last Paris destination on the front and a bit of A4 in the windscreen with an actual destination), and is not what you would expect from a premier operation.

Do they intend to use them? Even if they do, they could at least put a piece of sticky backed plastic over it for now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do they intend to use them? Even if they do, they could at least put a piece of sticky backed plastic over it for now.

They should. I think I saw a sarcastic comment from another forum member about that costing money, but it’s money that would stop a ridiculous amount of confusion. About five people asked me the other day if they were on the wrong train.

 

[tomuk]

As I said I find it very odd. They painted \ vinyl-ed their other stock as soon as they could despite the disruption it caused to passengers due to the shortages after scrapping the pacers. Maybe they learnt their lesson but as most of the Mk4s are stored\training they wouldn't be disrupting passenger services to do it. I wonder if its a contractual issue, KeolisAmey were obliged to do it as part of the franchise whereas now it's purely TfW there is no hurry.

 

[43301]

As I said I find it very odd. They painted \ vinyl-ed their other stock as soon as they could despite the disruption it caused to passengers due to the shortages after scrapping the pacers. Maybe they learnt their lesson but as most of the Mk4s are stored\training they wouldn't be disrupting passenger services to do it. I wonder if its a contractual issue, KeolisAmey were obliged to do it as part of the franchise whereas now it's purely TfW there is no hurry.

The first batch of Mk4s they acquired were out of use for ages - they had more than enough time to stick them through a paint shop without causing any disruption at all.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The first batch of Mk4s they acquired were out of use for ages - they had more than enough time to stick them through a paint shop without causing any disruption at all.

And indeed they did stick the DVTs through the paint shop, so presumably they had time to do the rest of the set at the same time but chose not to for some reason.

Is anyone able to say whether the 'black' sets will enter service in that livery, or are they planning to paint them first? I've seen various suggestions but nothing confirmed.

They'll also need to paint the Virgin/LNER livery Mk4s at some point - if they are in a similar state to those still with LNER then the vinyls will be looking pretty tired now!

I think I saw a rumour somewhere that the 'black' sets will stay black and the others will be painted black to match them with a red vinyl stripe applied down the side of all the coaches covering over the orange on the ex Grand Central ones.

 

[43301]

I think I saw a rumour somewhere that the 'black' sets will stay black and the others will be painted black to match them with a red vinyl stripe applied down the side of all the coaches covering over the orange on the ex Grand Central ones.

Yes, I've seen that too but could well be just wibble! Not sure what the benefit would be in having a completely different livery, given that they will be mixed in with DMUs on the routes they operate.

The locos painted so far are also in the grey and red livery. There are at least two which have been modified but not painted yet - one is in the queue for the paint shop at Toton, so whatever that comes out as is probably going to be a good indicator.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not sure what the benefit would be in having a completely different livery

I can think of one: saving the cost of repainting the Grand Central sets which have only just been done - there might also be something to do with paint guarantees (didn't the Anglian class 360s retain an 'extinct' livery for some time for such a reason?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can think of one: saving the cost of repainting the Grand Central sets which have only just been done - there might also be something to do with paint guarantees (didn't the Anglian class 360s retain an 'extinct' livery for some time for such a reason?)

You can always stick vinyl over the top (which is how the ex-VTEC livery was done).

 

[tomuk]

Sticking vinyl over stock particularly those with old steel bodies like the Mk4s is a recipe for massive corrosion.

 

[sd0733]

And indeed they did stick the DVTs through the paint shop, so presumably they had time to do the rest of the set at the same time but chose not to for some reason.

I think I saw a rumour somewhere that the 'black' sets will stay black and the others will be painted black to match them with a red vinyl stripe applied down the side of all the coaches covering over the orange on the ex Grand Central ones.

That's exactly what is currently planned to happen. The Grand Central sets are already having the orange stripe removed as it was vinyl. HD05, the one at Crewe is all over black at the moment.
Clearly this could change though.

67029, a silver one is the latest one to be modified and is planned to head to Landore at some point to go on HD06. That's another livery combination unless it's repainted!

 

[markymark2000]

I agree. The naked first class head cushion and ex LNER reservation displays still with ECML destinations on also make them look a bit rubbish.

Surely they should just disconnect the reservations for now rather than them being linked to the ECML. It's quite confusing for passengers. I've overheard a good few people getting confused over them and whether the seats are reserved or not and the destinations shown.

Given the amount of money spent on these trains, they aren't always the best and the announcements are like an endless drivel (when they work). The delay announcements are daft too as they don't reflect the real delay (says 5 minute delay when it's an 8 min delay then later on we catch up and it says a 6 min delay when we are now only 4 late) Apologising for 4 minute delays. It's nothing and really fits into the calls from the DFT to cut unnecessary announcements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's exactly what is currently planned to happen. The Grand Central sets are already having the orange stripe removed as it was vinyl. HD05, the one at Crewe is all over black at the moment.
Clearly this could change though.

It wouldn't look any worse than the scratch-sets they look like at present, but they really should just paint/vinyl them into regular TfW livery instead of pratting about.

Surely they should just disconnect the reservations for now rather than them being linked to the ECML. It's quite confusing for passengers. I've overheard a good few people getting confused over them and whether the seats are reserved or not and the destinations shown.

They're e-ink - in the absence of power (no doubt the batteries have run out - they're battery powered) they just keep displaying what was there before, power is required to change it. Same as e.g. a Kindle.

It would hardly be that difficult for someone to go down the train with a roll of black insulation tape and a pair of scissors to cover them up, though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's exactly what is currently planned to happen. The Grand Central sets are already having the orange stripe removed as it was vinyl. HD05, the one at Crewe is all over black at the moment.
Clearly this could change though.

67029, a silver one is the latest one to be modified and is planned to head to Landore at some point to go on HD06. That's another livery combination unless it's repainted!

Oh god, they’re going to look awful

 

[43301]

As regads the locos, they appear not to be bothered by those in a good condition freight livery (the several red ones - and 67029 would also fall into this category). The ones repainted in TfW livery have been in either very faded EWS or a tatty and faded livery from previous passenger use (Wrexham & Shopshire / Chiltern).

 

[markymark2000]

They're e-ink - in the absence of power (no doubt the batteries have run out - they're battery powered) they just keep displaying what was there before, power is required to change it. Same as e.g. a Kindle.

It would hardly be that difficult for someone to go down the train with a roll of black insulation tape and a pair of scissors to cover them up, though.

Ahh, I'm with you. Other than black tape, is there nothing more that TFW can do to solve the solution temporarily? Could they not work with the reservations people to get a one time download to show blank or show 'unreserved' or something? Does TFW intend on introducing reservations again as they got rid of them (It's noticable how much quicker boarding is now without reservations. Much nicer experience and less complaints about 'I booked my seat, I need my seat')

 

[Bletchleyite]

As regads the locos, they appear not to be bothered by those in a good condition freight livery (the several red ones - and 67029 would also fall into this category). The ones repainted in TfW livery have been in either very faded EWS or a tatty and faded livery from previous passenger use (Wrexham & Shopshire / Chiltern).

From experience on actual DB, a Verkehrsrot locomotive seems to suit just about any colour of coaches. I think there is a "thing" that the loco needn't match, to me at least.

 

[43301]

From experience on actual DB, a Verkehrsrot locomotive seems to suit just about any colour of coaches. I think there is a "thing" that the loco needn't match, to me at least.

Same on Chiltern and TPE to an extent, both of which have two DRS-liveried locos in the fleet.

Generally looks fine provided there's no colour clash, and the loco's paintwork is in decent condition.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sticking vinyl over stock particularly those with old steel bodies like the Mk4s is a recipe for massive corrosion.

just as well the Mk4s are Aluminium!

 

[43301]

just as well the Mk4s are Aluminium!

They aren't! Definitely steel.

The bodywork isn't as good as Mk3s either - it was really noticeable on the few sets which received the first (metallic silver) iteration of the East Coast livery. That showed up every ripple.