Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[JonathanH]

I wonder if there will be discussion to have a coordinated strike date with RMT (should it go ahead). Obviously it’s more disruptive (pretty much zero trains), but that is after all somewhat the point of industrial action.

I think this is my question though. Is it better strategy to have one coordinated day when the railway is properly shut down with no services at all or ongoing action on alternate days persisting for a longer period, with part of the railway taking its strikes in turn?

The one day is a nuisance but once complete it is soon forgotten. Ongoing disruption until the aims are reached is an ongoing nuisance. Obviously, it runs the risk that one group could get a better deal and leave the group that doesn't get that deal left behind. (You can potentially see the risk that if signallers and drivers get a deal, all the 'nasty' threats to guards, ticket office staff etc could still go through with not much to be seen as profit from the strike action.)

 

[Efini92]

I don't know. I don't think Greek philosophers lived in economies badly hit by global pandemics and war sanctions.

There was no pandemic in the first year we didn’t get a pay rise.
Now the parent companies are issuing massive profits for the year.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I raise you, Marcus Aurelius.
"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject."

Don’t assume what people know though. They may not agree with you, but that is not always because of ignorance.

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

I can’t believe I read that either. It’s back to the race to the bottom for some “anti-driver” types. Nobody ever seems to mention bands 6 to 8 for NHS nurses when saying how drivers get too much money.

Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy

 

[footprints]

Since the RMT announced strike action on Scotrail for every day of COP 26 last year, which ultimately led to the settlement of that dispute, is national strike action being called for the full duration of the Commonwealth Games a likely possibility?

 

[Skymonster]

Government insisted the railway continued to operate during the pandemic to enable key workers who couldn’t work from home get to their jobs. It’s therefore difficult to see how the government could now countenance a total shutdown of the railway due strike action. Time for a Shapps to pull his finger out and get the minimum service level provision that was promised in the manifesto into legislation pdq.

 

[XAM2175]

On a totally unrelated note, was it Socretes or Aeschlyus who said, "He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have..."

Apropos of nothing, am I correct in saying that you're backing The Right Honourable Michael Green Corinne Stockheath Sebastian Fox Grant Shapps MP in his bid for promotion to the soon-to-be-vacant role of Renovator-in-Chief at Downing Street?

 

[Huntergreed]

Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver & Conductor pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

Drivers are very well paid and the salary is very attractive for most applicants, I agree this absolutely cannot be said about teachers and nurses who often enter the profession due to enthusiasm and passion for the career.

Not sure the same can be said for conductors (certainly at some TOC’s), however I do not at all think that strike action is the right approach to take.

I have never seen the railways in such a bad state as they are at the moment, and it almost feels as if they’re wanting it to get worse with the constant threats of industrial action and strikes.

Yes, I support fair pay rises for all, especially during one of the most significant periods of inflation in living memory, however it does feel that the railway is signing a death warrant for itself. People are being put off so much. I know more than a handful who have switched to driving/flying and won’t be returning.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy

I agree, but I think this is absolutely the wrong approach to take.

 

[Citybreak1]

So what dates might the strike be?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Apropos of nothing, am I correct in saying that you're backing The Right Honourable Michael Green Corinne Stockheath Sebastian Fox Grant Shapps MP in his bid for promotion to the soon-to-be-vacant role of Renovator-in-Chief at Downing Street?

I haven't yet said (on the forum) who I would be backing, why do you say that?
The pseudonyms thing is very overused by the way

 

[JonathanH]

So what dates might the strike be?

There needs to be an announcement from the unions on dates but it needs to have two weeks notice - so not before 26 July given there has been no announcement today.

 

[Bald Rick]

So you are saying that TSSA signalling staff on their own aren't enough to cause meaningful disruption (notwithstanding that there isn't a mandate).

correct. Principally because there are very few signallers in the TSSA.

similarly if those who are in the TSSA and manage signallers were to go on strike* unilaterally, it wouldn’t have a noticeable effect on the operation of services with a few exceptions.


*but they won’t, unless the ballot is redone and a mandate for strike action achieved.

 

[Thumper1127]

There was no pandemic in the first year we didn’t get a pay rise.
Now the parent companies are issuing massive profits for the year.

Can you detail the precise profits and, specifically, how much from their UK rail operations please.

 

[175001]

Since the RMT announced strike action on Scotrail for every day of COP 26 last year, which ultimately led to the settlement of that dispute, is national strike action being called for the full duration of the Commonwealth Games a likely possibility?

The what games? Sooner that name is dispanded the better

 

[Kite159]

Since the RMT announced strike action on Scotrail for every day of COP 26 last year, which ultimately led to the settlement of that dispute, is national strike action being called for the full duration of the Commonwealth Games a likely possibility?

I would put money on at least one strike date announced for the commonwealth games, and most likely the organiser of the games have backup plans in the event of strike action (trying to get more buses running or opening up more car parking areas)

 

[JonathanH]

Can you detail the precise profits and, specifically, how much from their UK rail operations please.

Aslef posted this in their press release, which presumably is their assessment of largesse in the rail industry.
https://aslef.org.uk/publications/aslef-ballot-results-train-drivers-strike

NOTE to editors:
The claim that the money for a pay rise doesn’t exist is not borne out by the facts.

Before the pandemic, operators were paying out dividends of £262 million. Even in the year of covid they paid out £38 million. Now passenger numbers are almost back to pre-pandemic levels, bumper payouts are back on the companies’ agendas, too.

Between March 2020 and March 2021 train operators were paid management fees of more than £132 million.

The rolling stock companies – which buy the locomotives and carriages to lease to the operators – pocketed £3 billion in 2020/21 – a 5% increase on 2019/20. This figure has doubled since 2015/16. Eversholt, in 2020, paid a £46.5 million dividend. Porterbrook paid out £80 million.

In the list of highest earning public sector officials (senior civil servants and senior officials in departments, agencies and non-departmental public bodies), 9 out of the top 10 are from the transport industry and 8 of the 10 are in rail. Top of the list is Mark Thurston, CEO of HS2 Ltd, who earns £620,000. Next is Andrew Haines, CEO of Network Rail, on £585,000.

 

[qantas330]

How much notice in advance is given of a strike date?

 

[Efini92]

Can you detail the precise profits and, specifically, how much from their UK rail operations please.

 

[JonathanH]

How much notice in advance is given of a strike date?

Two weeks (or more) - a fresh mandate is needed for dates longer than six months after the ballot.

 

[Thumper1127]

Aslef posted this in their press release, which presumably is their assessment of largesse in the rail industry.
https://aslef.org.uk/publications/aslef-ballot-results-train-drivers-strike

Yes, their assessment. I’d love to see the actual figures. Group figures can be very misleading and subject to misinterpretation if not put in context/relative to the respective subsidiaries.

 

[Kipperthecat]

Only solution is to target weekends.
Band 1-4 don’t work them unless on-call , so action short of strike action will be called into play

 

[Thumper1127]

Interesting. 1.2% of revenue. I wonder what 45m profit in a year would be as a % if distributed across all members of the 4 TOCs on a pro rata basis to their salary. Minimal I would suspect.

 

[Stigy]

Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy

Irrespective of how many nurses are bands 6 to 8, the bands are there and available. I guess it’s down to whether an individual wants to apply for a higher banded role with more responsibility etc. however according to the NHS site, location allowances are added on top of basic pay. Also worth noting that a large number of nurses aren’t in emergency departments, working 13 hour shifts, but rather in GP Surgeries working 9-5 Monday to Friday. My intention isn’t to knock NHS staff, but it wears a little thin when we are constantly compared to nurses.

Social workers and Police Officers are generally on nearer £40k after a few years service.

I consider my salary to be what I’d expect given the level of training and responsibility. We’re not paid too much, but services like the NHS are paid too little (let’s not forget bands 1-4 in the NHS either. It’s appalling).

 

[SynthD]

Yes, their assessment. I’d love to see the actual figures. Group figures can be very misleading and subject to misinterpretation if not put in context/relative to the respective subsidiaries.

You’ll find your research satisfies you more than other peoples’ efforts.

More generally, and to borrow a phrase from another area of government, we want to be levelling up not grinding down.

 

[whoosh]

Police and nurses have unsocial hours payments added on, whereas almost all train drivers do not - it's part of the salary.

When people compare what a train driver's salary was before privatisation and now, they do not include the unsocial hours payments (and others, such as 'mileage') that were earned before the grade was restructured to wrap all that up into a basic salary.

In neither case is like being measured with like.

 

[baz962]

Avanti, XC and DRS ballots aren't finished yet and will be announced in due course. Have to say, some of the % are incredibly. 98.9% Arriva Trains London for strike action!

And that's considering Arriva rail London were offered 5%.

 

[Annetts key]

So, how many of the forum members are up and about at 04:30 this morning? And how many are at work?

Working round the clock shifts including nights can seriously affect an individuals long term health, but the railway companies either don’t want to listen or don’t care. You decide.

Now there are many and various different sets of terms and conditions, but for my job, I get a whole extra 10% for being at work at this time of day.

I’m not a train driver. But whatever job you do on the railway, one thing is certain. The Conservative government only appreciates you when you are trying to get trains running again after a large incident. The rest of the time, they are using every trick they can think of to undermine and short change us. Because the ordinary worker is not important to them, only the money they think they can save due to so called efficiently savings. But what they actually mean, is to cut functionality, by reducing the number of staff. This worsens the service provided to the passenger/customer. But of course, they don’t care about that.

If you read back through the history of the railways, some of the bad “accidents” have occurred due to mismanagement and trying to save money.

What is needed is for staff to be paid a respectable amount of money so that the railways can attract, recruit and retain good well trained and experienced staff. Unless of course, you are happy with a less reliable, less safe, and worse customer service…

 

[Carlisle]

The Conservative government only appreciates you when you are trying to get trains running again after a large incident. The rest of the time, they are using every trick they can think of to undermine and short change us. Because the ordinary worker is not important to them,

I’ve never voted Conservative but feel that’s a largely baseless generalisation.
Politicians & political activists of all colours may or may not appreciate the work of rail staff, or indeed any other cause or profession, depending on their knowledge & level of interest of the subject in question.
Didn’t Inter City & Network South East emerge from pretty downtrodden operations into what were largely regarded as forward looking modern brands under the conservatives ?

 

[brick60000]

Working round the clock shifts including nights can seriously affect an individuals long term health, but the railway companies either don’t want to listen or don’t care.

There is a - not enormously unreasonable - argument, that you train drivers that knew that when they took the job.

But then, also the argument that’s when they took the job, enhancements were paid.

 

[Envoy]

Why is Transport for Wales not affected? Have the staff already had a pay rise via the Welsh Government?