Avanti West Coast cancellations

[gazzaa2]

What’s more, all the top people at Avanti are still ex Virgin/Stagecoach as far as I’m aware. The same largely applies at LNER.

Both were competently operated previously by the same parent (ignoring the technicalities of the Stagecoach/Virgin split) - but Avanti has sadly gone down the drain which is a shame as it was a privatisation success story.

A miracle, then.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The parent group here doesn’t have much to do with influencing the emerging situation - it’s the current train crew position (including rest day working), traction and route knowledge and what the DfT are prepared to sign off that is driving all this.

If you lose drivers, recruitment has to be signed off, then the new recruits have to join the queue for training, the extent of which has to be signed off, then there is the rest day situation and then there is more COVID to disrupt and slow everything down again.

TPE have put proposals forward to rectify what should never have happened in the first place but the DfT are not signing the industry any blank cheques anymore and it’s crippling any effort to improve matters. Avanti can’t replace the Euston drivers overnight and the DfT isn’t keen to see any more targeted service reductions to match the available resources. So no decisions get made and it all drags on.

If this was purely left up to the operators, they would have put the money in by now to sort out this mess. But you are not allowed to do that anymore. Appalling.

 

[Moonshot]

The parent group here doesn’t have much to do with influencing the emerging situation - it’s the current train crew position (including rest day working), traction and route knowledge and what the DfT are prepared to sign off that is driving all this.

If you lose drivers, recruitment has to be signed off, then the new recruits have to join the queue for training, the extent of which has to be signed off, then there is the rest day situation and then there is more COVID to disrupt and slow everything down again.

TPE have put proposals forward to rectify what should never have happened in the first place but the DfT are not signing the industry any blank cheques anymore and it’s crippling any effort to improve matters. Avanti can’t replace the Euston drivers overnight and the DfT isn’t keen to see any more targeted service reductions to match the available resources. So no decisions get made and it all drags on.

If this was purely left up to the operators, they would have put the money in by now to sort out this mess. But you are not allowed to do that anymore. Appalling.

With the above post in mind, you would have to wonder why Unions state they want a fully nationalised railway.

 

[Clarence Yard]

To be fair, I don’t think Avanti have the same problems about the amount of training required as TPE have had but training across the TOCs (irrespective of OG) hasn’t yet caught up with the pre-COVID situation, in some cases the rest day situation not having helped at all. So the full (and fully trained) establishment just isn’t there at some depots. And now we are into the holiday season.

There is a general shortage of staff out there in the economy so trying to get any very short term bus cover for a cancelled late train is near on impossible. Getting delivery of pre-planned buses for engineering work can also be a bit tricky at times and even taxis are becoming harder to procure in the quantities operators sometime need.

The general public aren’t daft - they are not going to punt a journey that could very well turn out not what they expected and one bad experience will put them off, perhaps for good. That adds to the budgetary pressure on the DfT and the TOC cost budgets will then be put under scrutiny to be revised again.

 

[MalaiseForever]

0955 from Manchester to Euston was just cancelled at 0950. Why such short notice. I find it very difficult to believe they thought they had a driver available, but only discovered they didn’t 5 minutes before.

If they had cancelled the service earlier people could’ve made better alternative arrangements.

It’s so poor.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

0955 from Manchester to Euston was just cancelled at 0950. Why such short notice. I find it very difficult to believe they thought they had a driver available, but only discovered they didn’t 5 minutes before.

If they had cancelled the service earlier people could’ve made better alternative arrangements.

It’s so poor.

One would have to imagine it's a 'no show' or a very late sickness absence from that member of crew and they had no spares available at that depot to work it. It happens unfortunately, especially when staff numbers are low. No industry/business is immune to such things

 

[Efini92]

The midlands to Preston route isn’t looking good today.

 

[MalaiseForever]

One would have to imagine it's a 'no show' or a very late sickness absence from that member of crew and they had no spares available at that depot to work it. It happens unfortunately, especially when staff numbers are low. No industry/business is immune to such things

They urgently need to prune their timetable and only have services they are very confident they can run.

This unreliability is extremely poor.

If they can only run one train per hour between London and Manchester than that should be the timetable.

 

[peter166]

38 cancellations listed so far today & many other services terminated short.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Avanti West Coast JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

 

[SCDR_WMR]

They urgently need to prune their timetable and only have services they are very confident they can run.

This unreliability is extremely poor.

If they can only run one train per hour between London and Manchester than that should be the timetable.

Absolutely. Cancellations are disruptive whenever they occur, but when they know they can't possibly deliver this timetable it's rediculous. It's about time the media looked into this type of thing to put pressure on the DfT.

 

[jupiter]

Any advice then for someone travelling from Poole to Windermere via Euston to Oxenholme next Sunday the 10th?

I sacked off the trip some days ago after reading on here about the status.

Just checked availability for tomorrow, no fares available at all between 0855 and 1655 departures.

 

[Hadders]

This really is a quite disgraceful situation and it will take them years to get the staffing levels to where they need to be.

Makes GTR look good.

 

[Falcon1200]

They urgently need to prune their timetable and only have services they are very confident they can run.

I agree, and while for example Scotrail IMHO could have organised their staff shortage Emergency Timetable better, the principle is correct; Promising passengers a service in the full knowledge that it cannot possibly be delivered and will be severely disrupted, at short or as in the case above, no notice at all, is madness.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

This really is a quite disgraceful situation and it will take them years to get the staffing levels to where they need to be.

Makes GTR look good.

To be fair to GTR, their traincrew situation has improved significantly recently.

 

[class 9]

TPE have put proposals forward to rectify what should never have happened in the first place but the DfT are not signing the industry any blank cheques anymore and it’s crippling any effort to improve matters. Avanti can’t replace the Euston drivers overnight and the DfT isn’t keen to see any more targeted service reductions to match the available resources. So no decisions get made and it all drags on.

If TPE have put proposals forward, I'd have thought they would be fully costed, so no blank cheques.

 

[350401]

Up from London, in Manchester seeing friends this afternoon, and already noticed they’ve cancelled the 19.35 MAN-EUS. What are the chances they’ll cancel the last train back? Going to spend the whole afternoon nervously checking for when the last train really is. This level of unreliability is really detrimental to encouraging people back to the railway.

 

[Merseysider]

What are the chances they’ll cancel the last train back?

Significantly higher than zero, I’m afraid.

Can’t remember which weekends it was exactly but they’ve definitely done it before.

 

[350401]

Sigh. Yep, I’m half expecting it - meaning last train back to London will be 18.55. Pretty pathetic for a major intercity route. Agree with the point that they should re plan the timetable; today they’ve managed to run 3tph on the EUS-MAN route for a couple of hours; would be better to have a planned 2tph service and have more confidence that the last train will actually run.

 

[Fokx]

I really don't get where you are getting this stuff from. It's absolutely dire, yes, but any operator would be in the same situation regardless of who was in charge. The constraints imposed by the DfT, which are the root cause, would be exactly the same.

Note how, for example, Lumo and Hull Trains are seeing nowhere near the same level of cancellations. It's a question of having the correct resources in place, and unfortunately Avanti and TPE simply don't.

Whilst I largely agree with you that the problems are government lead, there is also some mis-management from the TOC’s.

For example, for TPE there has been a minor timetable increase (nothing on the scale compared to the original May train plan but still an increase). Increasing the timetable has lead to hundreds of cancellations because staff do not sign the diversions or the traction. This is particularly affecting night/morning services which never should have had an increase and are currently being replaced daily by 16 seater minibuses.

The average passenger count on the new 0534 from Leeds to Hull for example is 2. But cancel this train and the outbound working (0705 from Hull) is usually cancelled too, one of the busiest morning services on the route.

I honestly find it shocking that depots such as Hull have only recently just signed Manchester Victoria. That is pure and simply mis-management and something that should have happened prior to the 2018 timetable change

 

[87 027]

Travelled earlier this morning on an Avanti Manchester to Euston service. On arrival there was an announcement apologising for the cancellation of 2 earlier trains which the announcer said was 'allegedly' due to staff shortages and went on to say 'some of which is true and some is not true but it would take too long to explain over the Tannoy' or words to that effect. Intriguing!

 

[185143]

0955 from Manchester to Euston was just cancelled at 0950. Why such short notice. I find it very difficult to believe they thought they had a driver available, but only discovered they didn’t 5 minutes before.

If they had cancelled the service earlier people could’ve made better alternative arrangements.

It’s so poor.

13:35 was cancelled at 13:37! Driver taken ill was the reason the TM gave.

I'd just hiked up the train to Coach G too...

The unit+TM is now running the reinstated 13:55.

 

[jfollows]

Up from London, in Manchester seeing friends this afternoon, and already noticed they’ve cancelled the 19.35 MAN-EUS. What are the chances they’ll cancel the last train back? Going to spend the whole afternoon nervously checking for when the last train really is. This level of unreliability is really detrimental to encouraging people back to the railway.

The last train back is 1A71 20:35 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston, isn't it?
Due to be operated by 390114, but - more importantly - by 1H01 18:00 London Euston - Manchester Piccadilly (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P07344/2022-07-09/detailed#allox_id=0).
Prior to that, 1M13 14:59 Preston-London Euston which is currently operating (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P07499/2022-07-09/detailed#allox_id=0).
If I were you, I'd keep an eye out on 1H01 and - if it's operating - then the chances of 1A71 also operating are improved. Nothing guaranteed, of course.

 

[350401]

The last train back is 1A71 20:35 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston, isn't it?
Due to be operated by 390114, but - more importantly - by 1H01 18:00 London Euston - Manchester Piccadilly (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P07344/2022-07-09/detailed#allox_id=0).
Prior to that, 1M13 14:59 Preston-London Euston which is currently operating (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P07499/2022-07-09/detailed#allox_id=0).
If I were you, I'd keep an eye out on 1H01 and - if it's operating - then the chances of 1A71 also operating are improved. Nothing guaranteed, of course.

Thanks, that’s very useful

 

[peter166]

The last train back is 1A71 20:35 Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston, isn't it?
Due to be operated by 390114, but - more importantly - by 1H01 18:00 London Euston - Manchester Piccadilly (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P07344/2022-07-09/detailed#allox_id=0).
Prior to that, 1M13 14:59 Preston-London Euston which is currently operating (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P07499/2022-07-09/detailed#allox_id=0).
If I were you, I'd keep an eye out on 1H01 and - if it's operating - then the chances of 1A71 also operating are improved. Nothing guaranteed, of course.

Travelling by Avanti at the moment is a complete lottery trying to second guess what might be running & what won't be. The average passenger just wants a fixed timetable that can be reliably provided from the resources currently available. Better to provide 1 train an hour on all routes & guaranteed last trains rather than the current haphazard pattern of short notice cancellations, starting/terminating short, long gaps upto 3 or 4 hours between services & cancelling the last train of the day.
Its an utter shambles & I don't see any explanation from Avanti why it is providing such an unreliabe and ad hoc timetable at the moment and why it doesn't bring in a much reduced but reliable timetable instead?

 

[DanNCL]

My question remains unanswered as to why First group owned TOCs are suffering so badly from these issues when many TOCs owned by others aren’t if the parent company has nothing to do with it.

I’ll refer to LNER as a comparison again, LNER didn’t cancel a single service, on their full pre covid timetable, for any reason whatsoever on Thursday and that is the norm for them. If this was really entirely a DFT problem caused by restrictions being forced on all TOCs then LNER would have some sort of reliability issues (even if not to the same extent as Avanti and TPE) but they don’t and the only reasonable explanation for this would be differences in quality of management, or more specificaly LNER being better managed than Avanti and TPE.

 

[Ianigsy]

I sacked off the trip some days ago after reading on here about the status.

Just checked availability for tomorrow, no fares available at all between 0855 and 1655 departures.

A friend travelled from Crewe to Leuchars for an academic conference at St Andrews yesterday and was told that he couldn’t rebook his open ticket for an earlier train from Edinburgh as the train was fully booked and he wouldn’t be permitted to travel without a reservation.

I think the idea of Virgin West Coast as a privatisation success story was that they took over a network still largely run with 1960s and 1970s locos and stock and still managed to grow the market through the West Coast upgrade, Pendolino introduction, increased competition from Megabus etc. I used to travel regularly on the WCML in the mid-1990s between Euston and Liverpool - travelling Avanti on Wednesday felt like that kind of level of neglect but with Pendolinos.

 

[NEDdrv]

My question remains unanswered as to why First group owned TOCs are suffering so badly from these issues when many TOCs owned by others aren’t if the parent company has nothing to do with it.

I’ll refer to LNER as a comparison again, LNER didn’t cancel a single service, on their full pre covid timetable, for any reason whatsoever on Thursday and that is the norm for them. If this was really entirely a DFT problem caused by restrictions being forced on all TOCs then LNER would have some sort of reliability issues (even if not to the same extent as Avanti and TPE) but they don’t and the only reasonable explanation for this would be differences in quality of management, or more specificaly LNER being better managed than Avanti and TPE.

Might be that they have been allowed to renew their Rest Day agreement not long ago, can’t have trains to London affected.

 

[185143]

Might be that they have been allowed to renew their Rest Day agreement not long ago, can’t have trains to London affected.

And Avanti go to...?

 

[mmh]

And Avanti go to...?

Crewe. I live in North Wales.

 

[NEDdrv]

And Avanti go to...?

Ok then LNER under OLR not a TOC so May get preferential treatment, re back to pre covid timetable and Middlesbrough added