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"Covid rising in England" - let's stop the fear mongering

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duncanp

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I've seen a number of online news articles today saying basically

"Brits urged to wear face masks as Covid-19 hospital admissions expected to rise"​



NO NO NO NO!!!!! We will not wear those pathetic pointless face masks again!!! We put up with that absolute nonsense for long enough as it was(June 2020-July 2021, and then late November 2021-late January 2022)!!!! The mandatory wearing of face masks/coverings should NEVER even have been brought in in the first place!!!! We really don't need that horrible dystopian nonsense coming back again along with all those stupid notices/posters and PA announcements saying we "MUST wear a face mask/covering". As it is not currently mandatory to wear the dam things, hopefully I think very very few people will adhere to these pathetic unwarranted requests urging us to wear the dam things! The wearing of these things needs to be a thing of the past and consigned to the history books for good!!!!

Using the reason that Covid-19 hospital admissions expected to rise, is absolutely PATHETIC. We don't need to be hearing and seeing the words "Pressure on the NHS" and "Protect the NHS" ever again. Since the start of the pandemic 28 months ago, hospitals have had plenty of time to provide extra capacity(what happened to all those Nightingale hospitals? They demolished them all or used them for something else!!) So if the NHS is still moaning about not enough capacity or whatever, then quite frankly they're not fit for purpose!!!

I think a lot of the left leaning people who are advocating a return to compulsory face nappies are doing so via social media and sympathetic news media (eg. Locktivist Sky News, The BBC and The Guardian) precisely because they know there is no chance on earth that the (UK) government is going to listen to them, and implement what they want.

Even Sadiq Khant in London hasn't mandated masks on the tube because he knows it is like flogging a dead horse.
 
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gabrielhj07

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Even when it was mandated, you could count the masks on one hand, even peak Victoria Line.
 

kingston_toon

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I've seen a number of online news articles today saying basically

"Brits urged to wear face masks as Covid-19 hospital admissions expected to rise"​


I run a number of regular Twitter searches just to keep up to speed with what's happening Covid-wise and one particular link to this article (on msn.com) seems to be absolutely everywhere today, mostly being posted and retweeted by faceless name and number accounts. It feels like a concerted campaign. There also seems like a lot of chatter from the frownies accusing those of us who do not want a return to mask mandates of becoming more vocal and strongly making the case for targetted personal protection where necessary rather than universal masking. This is probably true - get in early and make sure we don't somehow find ourselves with a mandate again. I understand the urgency of why they want this and perhaps other restrictions reintroduced - it has to happen before cases peak and start to naturally fall so they can say "masks work"!

I definitely noticed a slight uptick in mask wearing on the Tube over the weekend, but nothing major, just 0-1 to 1-2 per carriage.
 

ainsworth74

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On my train journey to/from work there seems to be a lot more people wearing masks than this time last week. Though this is only a short journey from Ascot to/from Reading.

I've yet to see any sign of any sort of resurgence in the North East over the last week or so and nothing notable today.
 

Mikw

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Well that’s what we were told (alongside “three weeks to flatten the curve”, and “save lives”). Then again the same people who told us that also told us that Omicron would “overwhelm the NHS” last autumn and that proved to be nonsense. That rather suggests they were talking nonsense the first time around, also.

This was part of the problem with the response, and why the whole circus has been dragged out for so long. The lockdowns, along with most of the other measures, were open ended with no clearly defined objective against which their success, or otherwise, could be measured.
From time to time i have volunteered for the NHS, ITU beds are often close to capacity, especially during flu outbreaks, it doesn't take much to push it to the edge.

And, there's been a (in my opinion) shortsighted policy of allowing improvements on condition of site and land sales which has led to even tighter margins than normal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The people urging this don't have the intelligence to understand that:
  • the virus will continue to evolve and adapt for humans; it is becoming less pathogenic and it is increasing its fitness (i.e. "increased transmissibility")
  • our immunity to the virus is increasing all the time
  • vaccines are highly effective against severe disease and in relative terms only a very small proportion of infections result in serious illness
  • we are going to reach endemic equilibrium
  • flimsy loose fitting masks do not prevent infections and even if they did, it would only delay the onset of endemic equilibrium
Unfortunately there is just no way these people will be educated because they are driven by a hard-left political ideology.

They should be ignored; 95% of the population are ignoring them and eventually they will give up.
I tend to not get drawn into "Hard left" "hard right" discussions. We're all just people at the end of the day.

Some on the left want to be uber careful to the point of nonsense. Meanwhile, some on the right have effectively taken away out freedom of movement and brought in draconian protest laws.

I think most of us are somewhere between the points. Extremes on either sides should be ridiculed rather then given credence.

I'm not to worried that the current rates are up, it tends to come in waves, and i think we're in a better position all the time in terms of avoiding death with the vaccines as you say, clinically extremely vulnerable people excepted up to a point.

The only thing that does worry me is the tight margins when it comes to NHS capacity.
 
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Bantamzen

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From time to time i have volunteered for the NHS, ITU beds are often close to capacity, especially during flu outbreaks, it doesn't take much to push it to the edge.

The only thing that does worry me is the tight margins when it comes to NHS capacity.
Barely a year goes by without the NHS having one crisis or another. As far back as the mid-nineties my then girlfriend who was a student nurse at Wakefield Pinderfields had to pull regular 18 hour shifts, whilst junior doctors often spent upwards of 72 hours on site, catching kips in offices and even corridors. The problem isn't in the public going their daily business, the problem is shared between No.10/11, Whitehall, The Treasury & NHS management. They've had two and a half years to come up with a plan to increase capacity. Blaming the public is far easier for health bosses than blaming themselves...
 

nw1

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I tend to not get drawn into "Hard left" "hard right" discussions. We're all just people at the end of the day.

Some on the left want to be uber careful to the point of nonsense. Meanwhile, some on the right have effectively taken away out freedom of movement and brought in draconian protest laws.
Speaking as someone who considers themselves on the left of the spectrum, it's sometimes hard to understand why some on the left are so pro-restriction. There are sound left wing reasons to be against lockdowns and other restrictions. Not wishing to destroy jobs and increase poverty, for one thing. Also the effect of isolation on mental health.

By contrast, some of the more authoritarian right have expressed strongly pro-restriction attitudes in the past. Look at one of my most loathed political figures, the vile, repulsive Priti Patel, who appeared to advocate 'snitching' on your neighbours if they exceeded the 'rule of six' during September 2020. Whatever you think of the 'rule of six', it's clear to me this sort of 'snitching' behaviour is abhorrent.

I think most of us are somewhere between the points. Extremes on either sides should be ridiculed rather then given credence.

I'm not to worried that the current rates are up, it tends to come in waves, and i think we're in a better position all the time in terms of avoiding death with the vaccines as you say, clinically extremely vulnerable people excepted up to a point.

The only thing that does worry me is the tight margins when it comes to NHS capacity.
Then the NHS needs more money invested in it. Restrictions for evermore are not the answer.
 

Eyersey468

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Speaking as someone who considers themselves on the left of the spectrum, it's sometimes hard to understand why some on the left are so pro-restriction. There are sound left wing reasons to be against lockdowns and other restrictions. Not wishing to destroy jobs and increase poverty, for one thing. Also the effect of isolation on mental health.

By contrast, some of the more authoritarian right have expressed strongly pro-restriction attitudes in the past. Look at one of my most loathed political figures, the vile, repulsive Priti Patel, who appeared to advocate 'snitching' on your neighbours if they exceeded the 'rule of six' during September 2020. Whatever you think of the 'rule of six', it's clear to me this sort of 'snitching' behaviour is abhorrent.


Then the NHS needs more money invested in it. Restrictions for evermore are not the answer.
Completely agree regarding restrictions and the snitching behaviour
 

nw1

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The sad problem is, there is only so far one can go with not complying; when all the shops and clubs close down and transport links are halted, you have already lost.

That is true and it is such closures which have the most devastating impact.

However, in theory, someone who wished to make a point against lockdown could, for example, have a takeaway coffee on their own in a park. Or, walk on their own in isolated countryside for several hours, exceeding, during the walk, 5km from their house. This minuscule-to-no-risk kind of activity was at best (England) considered morally contemptible by the state, and at worst (Wales, IIRC) actively legislated against. Some of those restrictions were utterly ridiculous and baseless.
 
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DustyBin

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Speaking as someone who considers themselves on the left of the spectrum, it's sometimes hard to understand why some on the left are so pro-restriction. There are sound left wing reasons to be against lockdowns and other restrictions. Not wishing to destroy jobs and increase poverty, for one thing. Also the effect of isolation on mental health.

By contrast, some of the more authoritarian right have expressed strongly pro-restriction attitudes in the past. Look at one of my most loathed political figures, the vile, repulsive Priti Patel, who appeared to advocate 'snitching' on your neighbours if they exceeded the 'rule of six' during September 2020. Whatever you think of the 'rule of six', it's clear to me this sort of 'snitching' behaviour is abhorrent.

I’m right of centre and I completely agree.

The left vs right thing is nonsense in most cases, I’ve found myself talking to a lot more “lefties” recently, and it strikes me that we pretty much aspire to live in the same kind of society, but have different ideas when it comes to how best to achieve it. There’s no need for animosity, although it suits a number of people on both sides to stir it up. It’s the authoritarians we should be worried about, regardless of “flavour”.

Then the NHS needs more money invested in it. Restrictions for evermore are not the answer.

Possibly, but before it receives yet more money I really think it needs to better utilise the resources it has.
 

nw1

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I’m right of centre and I completely agree.

The left vs right thing is nonsense in most cases, I’ve found myself talking to a lot more “lefties” recently, and it strikes me that we pretty much aspire to live in the same kind of society, but have different ideas when it comes to how best to achieve it. There’s no need for animosity, although it suits a number of people on both sides to stir it up. It’s the authoritarians we should be worried about, regardless of “flavour”.
I agree that it's authoritarianism which is perhaps the biggest problem in politics. Authoritarianism in its various forms has been behind most political problems (including various OT things as well as over-harsh Covid restrictions) in recent years.
 

jumble

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I think a lot of the left leaning people who are advocating a return to compulsory face nappies are doing so via social media and sympathetic news media (eg. Locktivist Sky News, The BBC and The Guardian) precisely because they know there is no chance on earth that the (UK) government is going to listen to them, and implement what they want.

Even Sadiq Khant in London hasn't mandated masks on the tube because he knows it is like flogging a dead horse.
My understanding is that Sadiq would love to mandate masks on the tube but the government won't allow him to do so.
 

duncanp

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My understanding is that Sadiq would love to mandate masks on the tube but the government won't allow him to do so.

Oh dear, what a pity. <D<D

The BBC (there's a surprise) were even speculating that Sadiq Khant would have a go at becoming the next Labour leader if Sir Keir Starmer is forced to resign over "Beergate".

If Mr Khant was elected leader of the Labour party it would be a gift for the Tories, as those who are generally against COVID restrictions would look at his record as Mayor of London and think, do we want this person in charge of the whole of the UK.
 

Broucek

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I too was very puzzled how lockdown and masks became a left-right thing. Tribal thinking, I suppose

I was also slightly despairing in the shift in thinking below

2019
The left: "Poverty kills"
The right: "Nah-nah, not listening"

2021
The left: "Lockdown more"
The right: "But that will increase poverty and poverty kills
The left: "Nah-nah, not listening"
 

greyman42

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I think a lot of the left leaning people who are advocating a return to compulsory face nappies are doing so via social media and sympathetic news media (eg. Locktivist Sky News, The BBC and The Guardian) precisely because they know there is no chance on earth that the (UK) government is going to listen to them, and implement what they want.
Providing it's a Conservative government.
 

MikeWM

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Or indeed

2019
The left: "Big pharma are very bad and corrupt and more concerned about profits than looking after people. Look at their record, full of deception and dodgy products."
The right : "Big pharma are great!"

2021
The left: "Big pharma are fantastic and the best thing ever, and you must take their products else we'll exclude you from society, and you mustn't question anything they say and they deserve to make vast amounts of money"
The right (at least some of it): "Hmm, not so sure about this big pharma thing anymore, look at their past record of doing dodgy stuff, maybe we should be asking some questions about them"
The left: "Nah, we never mentioned anything like that, they're wonderful! Millions of lives saved! What are you, some sort of anti-vaxxer?"

I really don't know what has happened to the left, but it really isn't good.
 

greyman42

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My understanding is that Sadiq would love to mandate masks on the tube but the government won't allow him to do so.
That is my understanding as well. He tried to override the government, regarding masks on the Underground, earlier in the year and failed so he is wary of doing so again.
 

Broucek

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I really don't know what has happened to the left, but it really isn't good.
I love your pharma example

But the case of the left is heart-breaking. There's a fantastic article on UnHerd today called "How the Left fell for capitalism" and it's a wonderful if sad summary of how a movement that was, on the whole, a force for good (and I say that as someone on the centre-right) became part of the "establishment" and generally campaigned against the beliefs and interests of ordinary people...
 

MikeWM

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But the case of the left is heart-breaking. There's a fantastic article on UnHerd today called "How the Left fell for capitalism" and it's a wonderful if sad summary of how a movement that was, on the whole, a force for good (and I say that as someone on the centre-right) became part of the "establishment" and generally campaigned against the beliefs and interests of ordinary people...

A very interesting read, thanks for the tip. (The article can be found here if others are interested).

As someone who previously identified as fairly hard-left (I rejoined the Labour party in 2017 to support Corbyn's leadership, for example!) I hoped that the attitudes shown in 2020 were a blip and the political spectrum would return to something I would consider more normal. But now I'm not so sure, and I wonder in retrospect if the attitude of the left to Covid was actually as out-of-character as I thought it was at the time, or whether, as with much else, Covid merely brought into sharp focus things that had actually been happening for some time.

I don't know where I am now 'labelled' politically. I know what I believe, and I don't think I've changed my beliefs all that much, but the landscape has moved around rather dramatically. I really don't see myself calling myself a 'leftist' again any time soon, if ever. Oh well.
 

duncanp

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Providing it's a Conservative government.

That's what I meant.

I should have said "..the current UK government.."

I think people need to hold their nerve for a few more weeks.

I wouldn't mind betting that by the end of this month, all the major COVID related statistics will be on a downward trend, or at the very least plateauing.
 

david1212

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Except no-one has previously made the argument that we must not build houses because the hospitals cannot cope with it. There are other arguments against excessive house-building, some sensible (mostly those focused on preserving green space), but not heard this one before.
There’s certainly arguments been made about infrastructure, with hospitals being one part of that.
My thought when posting was not that the houses should not have built / planning approved for more ( a discussion for a dedicated thread ) but simply that given a local population increase of ~5000 the hospital facilities need to be enlarged just to maintain the same proportion of ITU beds etc. to local population. Thinking more the number of new houses / increase in population in the area covered by the hospital is significantly more than around 2000 / 5000, perhaps even 5000 / 12500.
 

Bikeman78

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I was interested in her comments about the resistance of BA5 to vaccines
Something like " There is possibly evidence emerging that BA5 might be more resistant to the vaccine"
This does not stop the likes of Mumsnet idiots interpreting this to be a fact and so making a fuss about masks
I don't know where the mumsnet people in question live. I haven't seen anyone wearing a mask at my kids school for weeks.
 

VauxhallandI

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Meanwhile the reality of the unnecessary restrictions are coming home to roost.

Zero self awareness from the media in the Standard with their headline of 117,000 die on waiting lists…
 

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Class 33

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On my train journey to/from work there seems to be a lot more people wearing masks than this time last week. Though this is only a short journey from Ascot to/from Reading.

Here in Bristol over about the past 10 days I had noticed a noticeable increase in the number of people wearing masks on buses and in shops. But only a relatively minor increase I'd say, going from roughly only about 2% wearing them up to about 7%. Seems to have stabilsed over the past couple of days though, so hopefully the increase in mask wearers will not continue, and hopefully start to drop again over the next few weeks. I think the vast majority of people have absolutely had it wearing the silly things and will not start wearing them again just as a result of the hysteria of "Covid on the rise again" and "Brits urged to wear face masks again"!
 

Kite159

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I noticed a small increase of people wearing masks on Sunday when I was in South London. Although some of those were wearing them incorrectly (i.e. leaving the nose exposed) which seemed completely pointless.
 

duncanp

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Interesting headline from the Daily Mail, outlining a miniscule increase in COVID deaths despite a near doubling in COVID cases.

Don't suppose the locktivists will pay any attention to inconvenient facts like this.


Still NO spike in Covid deaths: Just FIVE more virus fatalities were recorded in England and Wales last week - despite cases having more than DOUBLED over the past month​

  • A total of 166 Covid fatalities were recorded in the latest data from England and Wales, a minuscule increase
  • There have been concerns that a recent surge in cases will translate to more deaths, but this hasn't happened
  • Experts said vaccines and previous infection have blunted Covid making deaths less likely even as cases soar
Covid deaths in England and Wales remain below 25 per day despite infections having almost doubled over the past month, Government data shows.

Advocates of No10's strategy, which saw the final pandemic-era restrictions axed in April, have hailed the figures as more proof that the darkest days of the pandemic are over and that new economically-damaging curbs aren't needed.

Yet critics of the approach have already called for a return of mask wearing and for Brits to avoid meeting indoors because of the virus' resurgence.

Office for National Statistics (ONS) data released today show there were 166 Covid deaths registered across the two countries in the week ending June 24. This was barely a change on the 161 logged in the previous seven-day spell.

For comparison, this is just a fraction of April's toll, when cases soared to pandemic highs and deaths peaked at 740.

The figures don't reflect the total number of deaths because they look specifically at fatalities due to the virus, as opposed to ones where Covid may have contributed. Although, even when including these deaths which 'involve' the virus, the toll is still only 285 — barely a quarter of levels seen earlier in the year.

And the impact of the current surge in infections may not be felt for another fortnight, given how long it takes for the infected to become seriously ill.

However, there has yet to be any noticeable uptick in intensive care admissions — bolstering the argument that sky-high immunity rates from vaccines and repeated waves have drastically blunted the threat of the virus, rendering it into something that resembles the flu.

Hospitalisations have, however, trebled over the past month, with roughly 1,500 virus-infected patients now being taken to wards every day.

Trust bosses fear Britain's uptick, which shows no signs of slowing yet, will jeopardise efforts to tackle the record backlogs that built-up during the pandemic. Surging cases can trigger a rise in staff absences and pile extra pressure on hospitals because infected patients still need to be isolated.

Government advisers also fear the resurgence will eclipse April's wave, when virus admissions spiralled to above 2,500-a-day. If that does happen, it means hospitalisations will hit an 18-month high.

NHS figures suggest only a fraction of these patients are primarily ill with Covid, however, in another sign of how vaccines have changed the course of the pandemic.

Roughly 2.3million Britons had Covid in the week ending June 24 — up by a third on the previous seven-day spell. Even though rates are climbing quickly, they remain a fraction of levels seen in past peaks.

BA.4 and BA.5 are thought to be even more infectious than their ancestral versions. However, they are just as mild.

Celebrations for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee, half-term holidays and warm weather are also thought to be fuelling the latest surge. Some have also pointed to Britons mistaking Covid symptoms for hay fever.

Ministers have no plans to bring back any restrictions yet, although Boris Johnson has left the door open to future measures.

Infectious disease specialists, including members of the Government's SAGE panel, are confident that the darkest days of the UK's Covid battle are over.

Professor John Edmunds, an influential member of SAGE's notorious modelling committee, said he was 'not overly worried' about the rising cases last month.

Professor Lawrence Young, a virologist from Warwick University, told MailOnline today: 'The hospitalisation figures show an increase but fortunately this is not translating into deaths.'

He added, however, that high infection levels could still produce challenges, especially for those most at risk from Covid.

'Vaccination and the sheer levels of infection are providing overall protection but, faced with the continued threat of new variants, we do need to be conscious of the risk this poses to the elderly and clinically vulnerable,' he said.

Professor Paul Hunter, an expert in infectious diseases from the University of East Anglia, said while it was too early to draw conclusions about the current Covid surge on deaths, the current data was encouraging.

'Currently about three out of every 10,000 infections are dying, compared to 14 out of every 10,000 a year ago,' he said.

He also said he was 'almost certain' the darkest days of the Covid pandemic were behind us.

'When you look at people in hospital because of Covid or at deaths with Covid on death certificate the March/April wave saw fewer severe outcomes than the December/January wave despite March/April seeing quite a lot more infections,' he said.

'This is a trend that likely will continue.'

The ONS fatality figures, although still low, do show a slight uptick when looking at all Covid deaths.

A total of 285 Covid 'involved' deaths were recorded the week ending June 24, an increase of 21 compared to previous seven days.

Deaths involving the the virus have been predicted to rise due to the spread of Covid in the community.

Intensive care admissions for the virus, another key metric of the Covid pandemic, have also yet to dramatically increase in line with cases.

NHS England data shows there these were 223 of these patients, which are considered to the most severely ill with the virus, as of yesterday. This is a 16 per cent hike on the week prior but still well behind previous peaks this year.

Over 700 ICU admissions for Covid were recorded per day across a 10-day period in January.

Infections in all four nations of the UK are rising, with levels in England back to where they were in late April. Up to one in 18 people are infected in the worst hit parts of the UK.

The surge in cases has prompted Independent Sage to call for masks to be worn in public, more Covid jabs to be dished out as well as increased ventilation in indoor spaces.

The group, made up of left-leaning scientists and an active Communist party professor, previously lobbied for a Christmas lockdown but quietly softened their stance after the milder Omicron wave subsided naturally and the NHS was not overwhelmed.
 

kez19

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Interesting headline from the Daily Mail, outlining a miniscule increase in COVID deaths despite a near doubling in COVID cases.

Don't suppose the locktivists will pay any attention to inconvenient facts like this.



Looking at SAGE quoted - no need to panic the independent SAGE on the other… masks masks! For the first time I agree with SAGE (slow clap)
 

Mikw

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But it should be. I am ruling myself out of being locked down again; I won't comply and I am sure many others will do so too.
It's an interesting question, isn't it? Given Boris's total lack of respect for his own rules, if it happened again just how busy would be the police be handing out fines? I think it would lead to some civil unrest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yet on the other how accurate does she know that the BA5 is resistant to vaccines? On the flipside it looks like more doom than when the first vaccines came about either these people want vaccines or not? Can’t keep having it as a two way street!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



I thought initially that the Nightingale (Louisa Jordan in Scotland) hospitals were built for exactly that but it seemed to be it was your normal run of the mill hospital dealing with it! So what was the real purpose of those hospitals? Was it just built for the cameras and tv crews to then be forgotten about?
They were built to bolster the ITU capacity. But, in a staggering show of shortsightedness, due to the ITU wards being mothballed for months before, there weren't enough qualified staff to operate them.

We're led by idiots, but we know that anyway. Left and right are both bad.
 
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