The future of Edinburgh to Biggar Bus Services

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It appears that the whole thing has been cancelled, unless new registrations appear:-

Registration number	Operator name	Service number	Start point	Finish point
PM0000008/539 Cancellation	WESTERN BUSES LIMITED	102 (102, 102S)	Dumfries	Thornhill
PM0000008/541 Cancellation	WESTERN BUSES LIMITED	102_1 (102, 102S)	Thornhill Cross	Abington
PM0000008/507 Cancellation	WESTERN BUSES LIMITED	101_3 (101A, 102, 101S, 102S)	Carlisle Road, Abington	High Street, Biggar
PM0000008/508 Cancellation	WESTERN BUSES LIMITED	101_4 (101A, 102, 101, 101S, 102S)	High Street, Biggar	Gordon Arms Hotel, West Linton
PM0000008/440 Cancellation	WESTERN BUSES LIMITED	101 (101A, 102, 101, 101S, 102S)	West Linton	Edinburgh Bus Station, Edinburgh

Although expected after what was said last week it’s still worrying that no plan appears to be in place (at least publicly) for Biggar. As for south of Biggar I can’t see any hope of a replacement if the funding has gone.

Heard a suggestion that Stuart’s could extend their 91/191 from Biggar to Edinburgh which I’m not sure if it is/isn’t practical? That would at least keep the hourly service from Biggar to Edinburgh running. I still think Borders Buses is a more likely option though.

I do wonder if Stagecoach will continue to operate the outstation at Biggar as logistically it may create a few problems if nothing is now going in service onwards to Dumfries. Not sure how this operation works in practice at the moment, I know there are drivers based at Biggar but presumably they have to go to Dumfries to cash in etc?

If a new route does indeed run hopefully the outstation is kept as it could prove practical to keep for any new route. Hopefully all jobs retained in any case.

 

[mb88]

Isn’t the Biggar to Edinburgh section already an SPT tender? If so I’d imagine that will either continue or be awarded to another operator. I can’t see the 91/191 being extended to Edinburgh but who knows? If it did it would be the first time in coming on for 30 years that there’s been a direct bus from Lanark to Edinburgh which would be something.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Isn’t the Biggar to Edinburgh section already an SPT tender? If so I’d imagine that will either continue or be awarded to another operator. I can’t see the 91/191 being extended to Edinburgh but who knows? If it did it would be the first time in coming on for 30 years that there’s been a direct bus from Lanark to Edinburgh which would be something.

I think the issue is the bulk of the funding came from Dumfries & Galloway Council. So SPT and Scottish Borders Council will need to really up their share of things if this has any chance of happening.

The more I think about it I actually like the idea of having the 91/191 extended to Edinburgh. The obvious issue is what level of service could be offered and do Stuart’s have the resources to do it? The current timetables for both the 91/191 and 101/102 appear to have (in most cases) similar timings arriving and departing Biggar which may help as well.

Don’t want to verge off topic too much but just to clarify were the Borders Buses 91 and Stuart’s 91 once one route? Only asking as that too could play a part in any potential extension of the 91/191 to Edinburgh.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Oh dear.

Hopefully they find a solution to replace the services soon (if they don't re-register them again). Whenever I do the 101, it seems to be relatively light loaded from Dumfries, but fills up quite a bit when it hits Biggar and the towns after. It's also handy for walkers going to the Pentland Hills.

Last time I done a southbound 101, there was about 6 people using it all the way from Dumfries to Edinburgh. (Other people got on and joined at various points too!)

 

[mb88]

Don’t want to verge off topic too much but just to clarify were the Borders Buses 91 and Stuart’s 91 once one route? Only asking as that too could play a part in any potential extension of the 91/191 to Edinburgh.

The Stuart’s/Borders Buses 91 services are the remnants of the long gone section of the 240 (think it was the 240) which was run by Central from Glasgow to Peebles. I seem to recall it was briefly brought back by First Glasgow for a short spell in the early 2000s but didn’t last long at all.

The idea of extending the 91 is certainly an interesting one. As I mentioned before, it would bring back a direct service from Lanark to Edinburgh which hasn’t been in existence for many decades. I don’t think there was ever a service which took this route via Biggar, West Linton etc. Previous services run by Central and/or Eastern Scottish I believe went either via Forth, West Calder and Sighthill or via Carnwath, the A70 and Juniper Green.

Alternatively you could always extend the Borders Buses 91 to Edinburgh which would give an alternative route to the X62 for folk going from Peebles into town. Not sure how the journey times would compare. Obviously just pure speculation at this stage. I suspect the 101A will probably continue in some form or another, whether it be Stagecoach or another operator picking it up. I can’t see there being any reprieve for the Dumfries - Biggar section unfortunately.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Alternatively you could always extend the Borders Buses 91 to Edinburgh which would give an alternative route to the X62 for folk going from Peebles into town. Not sure how the journey times would compare. Obviously just pure speculation at this stage. I suspect the 101A will probably continue in some form or another, whether it be Stagecoach or another operator picking it up. I can’t see there being any reprieve for the Dumfries - Biggar section unfortunately.

This could work in parts but would leave West Linton etc without a bus. Hopefully they don’t go for the cheap option of telling people to get a 91 to Peebles and pick up the X62. This latter really doesn’t solve the problem in any case.

I think it’s more likely the 101’s routing will be the one that’s kept. It would maintain what I assume is a shopping link to/from Penicuik for those south of there. The 101A is more useful for those going directly to/from Edinburgh. If the 101 route wasn’t kept surely this is Lothian’s opportunity to re-extend the 15 to Penicuik?

Perhaps we could see both the 101 and 101A routings kept. Both 2 hourly, thus combining to run more or less hourly.

 

[tattyseal]

Oh yikes, my family use the bus from Dumfries to edinburgh regularly. This sure isn't looking good

 

[danielcanning]

The southwest of the country being totally cut off from Edinburgh is not a good look for the SNP, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 100 is saved in some form…

 

[overthewater]

I think "Storm in a teacup" is best describe the current situation. Only been about 10 days since SWestrans, pulled the plug. We still have 7 week until the contract ends and, let's be fair the current contract was poor value for money.

The suggestions to extend either 91 to Edinburgh does sound good, you could retime the Border 91 and Stuart 91 so combined it's every hour up to Edinburgh.

 

[stephen rp]

Oh dear.

Hopefully they find a solution to replace the services soon (if they don't re-register them again). Whenever I do the 101, it seems to be relatively light loaded from Dumfries, but fills up quite a bit when it hits Biggar and the towns after. It's also handy for walkers going to the Pentland Hills.

Last time I done a southbound 101, there was about 6 people using it all the way from Dumfries to Edinburgh. (Other people got on and joined at various points too!)

Did you tell them they were going the wrong way?

 

[computerSaysNo]

Could the X74 be re-routed to cover the 101/102 villages in the Clyde Valley that it currently skips (so covering Beattock, Moffat, Crawford, Abington and Abington Services), and then Borders Buses pick up a connecting service from Abington Services to Edinburgh?

 

[Scotrail314209]

Did you tell them they were going the wrong way?

Well, they were hills of some sort!

Could the X74 be re-routed to cover the 101/102 villages in the Clyde Valley that it currently skips (so covering Beattock, Moffat, Crawford, Abington and Abington Services), and then Borders Buses pick up a connecting service from Abington Services to Edinburgh?

That may be unpopular as the 101/102 is only at certain times of the day, and if you were to go via the villages it would significantly degrade journey times to Glasgow.

Bear in mind the X74 already serves Moffat and Beattock.

 

[computerSaysNo]

That may be unpopular as the 101/102 is only at certain times of the day, and if you were to go via the villages it would significantly degrade journey times to Glasgow.

Bear in mind the X74 already serves Moffat and Beattock.

I wouldn't think it would add much to the Glasgow journey time, maybe an extra 10/15 minutes? As you say the X74 already serves Beattock and Moffat, you could go onto the M74 after Moffat, off at junction 14 onto the A702, turn right at Crawford to go up and round Carlisle Road, through Abington, one-way round the Services then straight back onto the motorway from there?

 

[overthewater]

That would require an extra coach,

 

[DunsBus]

Isn’t the Biggar to Edinburgh section already an SPT tender? If so I’d imagine that will either continue or be awarded to another operator. I can’t see the 91/191 being extended to Edinburgh but who knows? If it did it would be the first time in coming on for 30 years that there’s been a direct bus from Lanark to Edinburgh which would be something.

I think the issue is the bulk of the funding came from Dumfries & Galloway Council. So SPT and Scottish Borders Council will need to really up their share of things if this has any chance of happening.

The more I think about it I actually like the idea of having the 91/191 extended to Edinburgh. The obvious issue is what level of service could be offered and do Stuart’s have the resources to do it? The current timetables for both the 91/191 and 101/102 appear to have (in most cases) similar timings arriving and departing Biggar which may help as well.

Don’t want to verge off topic too much but just to clarify were the Borders Buses 91 and Stuart’s 91 once one route? Only asking as that too could play a part in any potential extension of the 91/191 to Edinburgh.

SPT and Scottish Borders were approached to see if they could up their share of things. Both were unable to do so. So although Dumfries & Galloway cut their funding, the decision to end the 101/102 looks to have been a collective one taken by all three councils.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2022 ==

The southwest of the country being totally cut off from Edinburgh is not a good look for the SNP, it wouldn’t surprise me if the 100 is saved in some form…

Some pride-swallowing by the SNP would need to be done for the 101/102 to be saved. The south of Scotland is Tory territory and the SNP hate the Tories with a passion.

 

[Stan Drews]

D&G effectively decided to withdraw their financial support, as they were paying a disproportionate amount for a contract where the majority of journeys were being taken wholly outwith their region, i.e. Biggar - Edinburgh.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

D&G effectively decided to withdraw their financial support, as they were paying a disproportionate amount for a contract where the majority of journeys were being taken wholly outwith their region, i.e. Biggar - Edinburgh.

I did wonder this when I was looking at it earlier. On the current route the majority of the funding should be coming from SPT, then Scottish Borders, and closely followed by Dumfries and Galloway. As we all know it never works out like that.

As it did 4 years ago I suspect this topic may pop up at Holyrood again, what purpose that actually does I really don’t know.

Time will tell what actually happens, but now that I look at the whole picture it actually looks really bleak.

 

[DunsBus]

I did wonder this when I was looking at it earlier. On the current route the majority of the funding should be coming from SPT, then Scottish Borders, and closely followed by Dumfries and Galloway. As we all know it never works out like that.

As it did 4 years ago I suspect this topic may pop up at Holyrood again, what purpose that actually does I really don’t know.

Time will tell what actually happens, but now that I look at the whole picture it actually looks really bleak.

Scottish Borders planned to withdraw its financial support of £135,000 per annum back in 2018, as it argued that only a small part of the route passed through its area. In the end it was reduced by £100,000 to £35,000.

 

[overthewater]

The council could get Border buses to operate one bus to operate back and forth from Biggar to Penicuik and connect with the X62, which passes each way around the same time at 11mins past.

 

[duncanp]

The BBC has an article on this today.

It seems that the local authorities are trying to find a solution, and are aware of how strongly local people feel about this matter.

Protest staged along threatened Dumfries to Edinburgh bus route

Campaigners say the Dumfries to Edinburgh service is a "vital link" for the communities its serves.

www.bbc.co.uk

Protest planned along threatened Dumfries to Edinburgh bus route​

A protest is being planned along the route of a bus service due to be discontinued in about six weeks' time.
Campaigners say the Dumfries to Edinburgh service is a "vital link" for the communities it serves.
They intend to stage a protest at a number of stops along the route to try to avoid it being taken away.
The councils involved in funding the service are in discussions and have said they are committed to finding a solution.
The 101/102 service runs between south west Scotland and the capital, and serves a number of towns and villages including West Linton, Biggar and Moffat.
The current contract with Stagecoach West Scotland ends on 13 August.
A new deal has not been awarded which has been blamed on a sharp rise in the proposed costs of running the service.
An online petition has gathered thousands of signatures and now a demonstration is planned.
"This has just landed on communities in the last few days," said West Linton resident Ian Reid.
"What has become clear is that the bus service is at serious risk of being removed in six weeks' time.
"There has been no formal notification, no community consultation."
An online meeting of groups affected discussed the impact at the weekend.
Barry Knock, who chairs Quothquan and Thankerton Community Council, said the effect on the viability of their rural community would be significant.
He said there was a "great deal" of anger about the "loss of this vital link".

A statement from Dumfries and Galloway Council - one of the local authority areas affected - said it understood and shared the concerns.
It said it was working with the local transport partnership Swestrans, which it funds, to find a solution.
The statement added that the procurement process had seen a proposed cost increase of 86% which was unacceptable.
However, co-leaders Linda Dorward and Stephen Thomson said they were in talks with all current funding partners and the local authorities in Midlothian and Edinburgh to try to find a solution.
Stagecoach said it operated the current contract on behalf of a number of local authorities and regional transport partnerships.
It confirmed that deal was due to end on 13 August and it had not been awarded the contract to operate services after that date.

 

[RELL6L]

The council could get Border buses to operate one bus to operate back and forth from Biggar to Penicuik and connect with the X62, which passes each way around the same time at 11mins past.

Or Stuart’s Coaches could extend the 91/191 to Penicuik where there are a number of services that could complete a journey to Edinburgh.

It appears (vehicle information not on BusTimes) that the 91/191 bus may just go back and forth within the hour. With an extension to Penicuik it would realistically need about 2hrs 10minutes round trip so can’t be worked with 2 buses on an hourly frequency. But maybe this could be solved by inter working with the 37. Maybe it already is.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The BBC has an article on this today.

It seems that the local authorities are trying to find a solution, and are aware of how strongly local people feel about this matter.

Protest staged along threatened Dumfries to Edinburgh bus route

Campaigners say the Dumfries to Edinburgh service is a "vital link" for the communities its serves.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hopefully it is kept, it’s a vital link. I can understand why financially Dumfries & Galloway Council would want to change their share percentage of the subsidy, however this so far has come at the cost of the users and not the other councils. The apparent unwillingness of SPT and Scottish Borders Council to increase their share percentage means this will likely go on for some time yet.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I mean, to be fair to the Councils, I'm not really surprised ridership is low as you really wouldn't know about that service even existing unless you lived along that route and really needed to use it.
They could really do with advertising it just to make more people aware that it actually exists.

 

[duncanp]

Hopefully it is kept, it’s a vital link. I can understand why financially Dumfries & Galloway Council would want to change their share percentage of the subsidy, however this so far has come at the cost of the users and not the other councils. The apparent unwillingness of SPT and Scottish Borders Council to increase their share percentage means this will likely go on for some time yet.

Can't help thinking that each local authority concerned is trying to cut their share of the subsidy required, whilst hoping that the other councils will pick up the tab.

I think that a solution will be found eventually, which will involve splitting the route into several sections.

 

[overthewater]

Does anyone remember the X73 Stagecoach operated for a while back in the late 90s? With 101/199 running in-between under contract to the councils? I do remember seeing 199 being operated by a decker.

I mean, to be fair to the Councils, I'm not really surprised ridership is low as you really wouldn't know about that service even existing unless you lived along that route and really needed to use it.
They could really do with advertising it just to make more people aware that it actually exists.

The service has been running for years, but the first bus southward has been missing for donkey years now. Could it do well if bike racks were added and prompted that way?

Or Stuart’s Coaches could extend the 91/191 to Penicuik where there are a number of services that could complete a journey to Edinburgh.

It appears (vehicle information not on BusTimes) that the 91/191 bus may just go back and forth within the hour. With an extension to Penicuik it would realistically need about 2hrs 10minutes round trip so can’t be worked with 2 buses on an hourly frequency. But maybe this could be solved by inter working with the 37. Maybe it already is.

That is how I worked it, interworking 37, 91 and link to Penicuik.

Can't help thinking that each local authority concerned is trying to cut their share of the subsidy required, whilst hoping that the other councils will pick up the tab.

I think that a solution will be found eventually, which will involve splitting the route into several sections.

That's the problem, it can't really be cut more than twice. It has to be Biggar to Edinburgh plus something southwards. The trouble is 101 operates on top of a more frequent service X74

 

[duncanp]

It has to be Biggar to Edinburgh plus something southwards.

Yes, I don't think having a service from Biggar to somewhere like Penicuik, or the Southern terminus of a Lothian bus route (like the 4 at Hillend) would be of much use.

Not only is there the inconvenience of having to change buses, but the possibility of missed connections (and hanging round the interchange point for a long time) if the outbound bus from Edinburgh is delayed in traffic.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Yes, I don't think having a service from Biggar to somewhere like Penicuik, or the Southern terminus of a Lothian bus route (like the 4 at Hillend) would be of much use.

Not only is there the inconvenience of having to change buses, but the possibility of missed connections (and hanging round the interchange point for a long time) if the outbound bus from Edinburgh is delayed in traffic.

Agreed, that potential connection wouldn’t work most of the time given Edinburgh’s now constant traffic problems.


Does anyone know how busy the route is via Mauricewood? Just the top stop nearest the A702 that is, as the bottom one is close enough to the A701. If it’s not that busy perhaps running those journeys via Easter Bush Campus could be an option too to increase patronage? Once again leaving the fast bus (currently 101A) as every 2 hours with the other route as hourly. A crazy but, for me a good idea would be to give Auchendinny a bus back by making this route serving it too, just certain buses though. Now that really won’t happen.

 

[route101]

Does anyone remember the X73 Stagecoach operated for a while back in the late 90s? With 101/199 running in-between under contract to the councils? I do remember seeing 199 being operated by a decker.




The service has been running for years, but the first bus southward has been missing for donkey years now. Could it do well if bike racks were added and prompted that way?



That is how I worked it, interworking 37, 91 and link to Penicuik.



That's the problem, it can't really be cut more than twice. It has to be Biggar to Edinburgh plus something southwards. The trouble is 101 operates on top of a more frequent service X74

What was the X73 route?

 

[overthewater]

Route X73 Edinburgh - Biggar - Moffat - Anna - Dumfries ( one trip going to Carlisle instead) It did not operate via Penicuik.

​

 

[DunsBus]

The Stand Up For Our Buses campaign have reported on their Facebook page that the 101/102 is to continue until the end of March 2023 pending a consultation and review of all available funding resources.

It can be viewed here - https://www.facebook.com/StandUpForOurBuses/

Well done everyone! At this evening’s bus stop demo In West Linton Borders Councillors announced that the 101/2 has been given a reprieve until 31st Mar 2023. This will allow a proper consultation and a full review of all funding sources. (The news didn't reach Biggar until after the end of the demo, but we were singing anyway!)
This is a huge victory for people power. That’s you - all of the people who have supported the campaign either online or in your communities.
But it’s not over yet - we need to make sure that this doesn’t happen again In March, so we need to keep up the pressure at all levels to ensure that there is a long term future for this essential route.

And of note, it's Scottish Borders councillors who've announced the reprieve. A sign that the new Scottish Borders administration is willing to listen to people (it was the previous one which slashed its share of the funding back in 2018, resulting in the loss of late-evening journeys).