How can Cross country overcrowding be alleviated?

[trebor79]

Re your last para the GA experience thus far tends to suggest that they should be avoided like the plague.

Have you actually travelled in one?

Having used the 755 on GA on some occasions, and from what I heard from other people they are fantastic.

Indeed. Best trains on the network IMO.
The 80x would be just as good if they didn't have such terrible seating and noisy HVAC.

 

[Wolfie]

Have you actually travelled in one?

Indeed. Best trains on the network IMO.
The 80x would be just as good if they didn't have such terrible seating and noisy HVAC.

Yes. I was talking about the reliability issues as my later posts showed.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. Best trains on the network IMO.
The 80x would be just as good if they didn't have such terrible seating and noisy HVAC.

Those are serious flaws I agree, caused by being cheap. They will be very difficult to correct. They are at least physically possible to correct though unlike their other major flaw which is the stepping distance from a standard height platform into all of the coaches but the driving vehicles. You could also argue on GWR at least, that their very high operating and maintenance cost makes them poor candidates compared to the 745 / 755 fleets.

 

[trebor79]

Those are serious flaws I agree, caused by being cheap. They will be very difficult to correct. They are at least physically possible to correct though unlike their other major flaw which is the stepping distance from a standard height platform into all of the coaches but the driving vehicles. You could also argue on GWR at least, that their very high operating and maintenance cost makes them poor candidates compared to the 745 / 755 fleets.

Yes, the 80x are both cheap and nasty for the passenger and very expensive TCO. Quite an achievement!
The 745/755 really are just about perfect for the routes they operate. And if it was a choice between an 80x or a 755 Paddington to Penzance I'd take the 755 any day.

 

[class397tpe]

Yes, the 80x are both cheap and nasty for the passenger and very expensive TCO. Quite an achievement!
The 745/755 really are just about perfect for the routes they operate. And if it was a choice between an 80x or a 755 Paddington to Penzance I'd take the 755 any day.

Funnily enough, even with the shorter coaches a 755/4 has more capacity than a 220... (not counting the 27 tip-up seats)
They would be lovely on XC in 8 or 10 coach formations.

 

[trebor79]

Funnily enough, even with the shorter coaches a 755/4 has more capacity than a 220... (not counting the 27 tip-up seats)
They would be lovely on XC in 8 or 10 coach formations.

I'm sure Stadler would be only too happy to oblige. Sadly it'll never happen.
The 755 is also a much more pleasant travelling environment than a 220.

 

[The Planner]

Of the Manchester-South Coast services, how much of it is above 100mph?

How much time would a Turbostar lose?

A three coach Turbostar has as many seats as a 4-car 220

Loads, a Voyager wipes the floor with a Turbostar in acceleration.

 

[class397tpe]

I'm sure Stadler would be only too happy to oblige. Sadly it'll never happen.
The 755 is also a much more pleasant travelling environment than a 220.

So much nicer! The internal ambiance in a flirt is just lovely - much more natural light and less cramped than a voyager due to the body profile.
Bi-mode as well....
But will never happen - too expensive for crosscountry.

 

[The Ham]

So much nicer! The internal ambiance in a flirt is just lovely - much more natural light and less cramped than a voyager due to the body profile.
Bi-mode as well....
But will never happen - too expensive for crosscountry.

The XC may be able to make the numbers stack up for to the extra capacity, it's if the Treasury will allow them to.

Even in the share of tickets between two places having more seats would increase their income.

For instance if there's 1,000 SWR seats between Southampton and Basingstoke and 250 on XC (with 1/5 of the income to XC) of XC increases that to 500 seats then they'll get 1/3 of the income. The problem is that the Treasury won't allow that as it'll mean that the other TOC would lose out. Even if actually the extra capacity meant that more passengers were travelling and offsetting most of the losses.

In the above example (using easy numbers to type and compare) if the income was £1,000 and SWR was getting £800, you'd only need the income to increase to £1,200 (+20%) for SWR to be no worse off. However the total number of seats had also increased by 20%, so overall the seat occupancy rate wouldn't need to change.

Yes it's likely that there'll be a greater number of long distance passengers, so XC would benefit more and SWR would lose income. However that could be offset, at least in part, by increased passengers on XC going to other SWR stations (such as to Fleet, Woking or Eastleigh).

However, as the Treasury cares about net costs, as long as XC can show that improves then it shouldn't matter that the costs increase. As the income would have also increased to cover that. For example if it costs more in fuel having passengers on trains the the Treasury would be stupid to argue that the trains would run with no passengers on board, as without them there would be no income.

Now with the potential for also having a lower fuel bill and lower track access charges (the 221's are quite costly in that regard) it shouldn't take too much for the overall numbers to stack up for new rolling stock. Especially if (due to longer length trains needing fewer staff than when they run in pairs) staff costs also could be reduced.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They certainly did ! I commuted between Oxford and Reading from 1980 to 1984 and depending on shift times, used XC services just as much as any other.



Thanks a lot ! So when my delayed bus to Oxford station just missed the 0902 GWR train to Reading I was a fool for joining the 0916 XC, instead of waiting another 15 minutes for GWR ? And returning from Reading to Oxford I have on occasion used XC too, if that was the next train. BTW, can we please ditch this nonsense that every single XC train is grossly overcrowded and no-one joining en route can ever get a seat, because that was not the case on those journeys I have mentioned. BTW also the majority of GWR Oxford route trains I have travelled on, or observed, recently have been 5-cars, not 9 or 10, and some of those have been overcrowded.

I agree as well. On my recent XC journeys (Reading - Oxford just like you, and also Bristol Temple Meads - Taunton), none were overcrowded at all, making the journey rather pleasant.

 

[Jonny]

Or even, shock horror....what TPEX have done and brought in those nasty, horrible loco hauled services and maybe stick on an extra carriage or two. That's the difference between now and 2002. We have fast, reliable and fuel efficient locomotives available. Anyone work out what a 68+7 would hold passenger wise? Are they able to be upgraded to 110mph operation I wonder?

They would hold quite a bit, but a Class 68 in its native condition is 100mph max, and then you're heading for the same compromise situation that left the Class 67s so messed up that they were neither here nor there; I think the horsepower advantage of a 68 over a 67 is in the high hundreds (about 25%) and class 67s are only useful with 4 or 5 on so you would likely need top-and-tail and a speed mod (or a new class with modified design) to keep up with 125mph.

 

[ashkeba]

All very well having grandiose plans but no one will want to pay for depot capacity associated with significantly longer trains or significantly more trains. Take a look at Central Rivers next time you are passing and consider how it could be developed to accommodate longer trains. It just isn't happening

Isn't Central Rivers owned by Bombardier anyway? So a new provider might need to build their own depot anyway. Bombardier built Central Rivers for the Voyagers anyway. Maybe it'll still be useful for whoever uses them next.

 

[Pete_uk]

As I like to say, at some point the infrastructure will need to be upgraded for the longer trains necessary to carry those using the railway.

 

[JonathanH]

As I like to say, at some point the infrastructure will need to be upgraded for the longer trains necessary to carry those using the railway.

I suspect that it comes down to the money available. Nine car trains can already run on Cross Country, they just have to formed of two shorter units.

The cost of a depot and ongoing cost of new build has to be compared against the costs of using existing depot facilities for shorter trains that can be coupled up.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suspect that it comes down to the money available. Nine car trains can already run on Cross Country, they just have to formed of two shorter units.

The cost of a depot and ongoing cost of new build has to be compared against the costs of using existing depot facilities for shorter trains that can be coupled up.

clearly the option finally chosen will consider the costs of various options; however, doubling up also incurs extra costs in staff, and depot capacity might have to be upgraded regardless if XC takes all 22x to increase capacity and replace the HSTs.

Where does XC maintain the HSTs by the way? Central rivers as well?

 

[JonathanH]

Where does XC maintain the HSTs by the way? Central rivers as well?

GWR maintain the XC HSTs at Laira. CrossCountry 'buy in' all their fleet maintenance.

 

[Trainbike46]

Thank you

Continuing on from that, maybe it would be possible to maintain theoretical XC HSTs at GWR and LNER depots, and move XC away from central rivers completely. It may require expansion at those depots anyway

 

[JonathanH]

Continuing on from that, maybe it would be possible to maintain theoretical XC HSTs at GWR and LNER depots, and move XC away from central rivers completely. It may require expansion at those depots anyway

Craigentinny is now a Hitachi depot. It looks after a handful of XC Voyagers each night. However, it is also busy with LNER and Lumo 80x units and Scotrail 385s. Indeed, one XC HST goes there each night also.

Laira sees Voyagers and XC HSTs. It might well be ripe for having a greater role in the XC fleet plan if the GWR HSTs go.

However, CrossCountry could not really work without a depot in the Midlands as many of the services on both parts of the X start from Birmingham. Central Rivers was purpose built for the Voyagers and is likely to have spare capacity once Avanti isn't using Voyagers any more, although even some of those go to Arriva Traincare at Crewe and Alstom at Polmadie overnight.

Expansion of the XC long distance fleet increases traincare requirements across its network. I'd imagine there are some places where that is easier to accommodate than others and some places where longer trains work and some where they don't.