Poor strike service communications

[mrmartin]

Not actually wanting to debate the merits of the strike itself in this thread, so hopefully this is allowed.

Personally I felt the messaging was way too strong last week for the national strikes - blanket do not travel advisories, even on the days when basically a normal service was running.

Now with the Greater Anglia drivers strike on 2nd July, Stansted Express's website is saying "Please use alternative travel to the airport" when national rail is saying a 1tph service will be running, which for many people will be much preferable to trying to get a very overcrowded slow bus from central london. Given stansted express is only running 2tph still, it's not a massive reduction and in my eyes does not merit a blanket use alternative travel?

 

[Moonshot]

Damned if they do ....damned if they dont

 

[jon0844]

The service provision on strike days only worked because almost everyone stayed away. With vastly reduced capacity, I think the advice to not travel unless absolutely necessary was sensible.

If people begin to think it's probably okay, the trains will be crush loaded in minutes (as they were between strike days on the earliest trains).

 

[Starmill]

The message was way off in some places but highly varied. Transport for Wales advised do not travel for Sunday, despite Sunday shifts being unaffected. Places that should have had overnight coverage obviously didn't from the previous night but nearly all routes were open early enough for TfW to have trains out of the depot in time for the first passenger departures of the day.

As for StanEx, 2tph doesn't exactly struggle for capacity given how they specified the units for it. 1tph is not likely to be leaving people behind. Obviously if it were going to be a stopping service it would be rather more concerning.

 

[mrmartin]

The message was way off in some places but highly varied. Transport for Wales advised do not travel for Sunday, despite Sunday shifts being unaffected. Places that should have had overnight coverage obviously didn't from the previous night but nearly all routes were open early enough for TfW to have trains out of the depot in time for the first passenger departures of the day.

As for StanEx, 2tph doesn't exactly struggle for capacity given how they specified the units for it. 1tph is not likely to be leaving people behind. Obviously if it were going to be a stopping service it would be rather more concerning.

Yes, exactly. 1tph should be fine. Instead, because of the messaging, I bet loads of people will go for the coaches which will be horribly crowded and won't be able to cope.

There is a real difference between saying what they are saying:

"Please use alternative methods of travel to the airport"

and what they could say

"Due to strike action, services will be less frequent than normal, and finish earlier than normal. You may want to consider using alternative methods of travel to the airport. Please check exact schedules before setting off".

In my eyes #2 is much better and still makes it clear that other methods may be preferable (though in nearly all cases; they won't be better than waiting for a 1tph train instead of a 2tph train).

 

[43066]

The service provision on strike days only worked because almost everyone stayed away. With vastly reduced capacity, I think the advice to not travel unless absolutely necessary was sensible.

If people begin to think it's probably okay, the trains will be crush loaded in minutes (as they were between strike days on the earliest trains).

Absolutely.

There is a tendency on here for people to criticise messaging that can be difficult to get right. I can’t help but notice the OP has on another thread criticised the railway for *not* warning him enough in relation to speed restriction related disruption, so it really can be a case of “damned either way”.

When only a small fraction of the service is expected to be running it’s much better to err on the side of caution, rather than encouraging people to travel into London when they might be unable to make a return journey, etc.

 

[Moonshot]

Be prepared for more strikes and more disruption until further notice. That's a very simple message.

 

[driverd]

I'm also in favour of more honest messaging something like, "there will be a highly reduced service, with significantly reduced capacity on strike days. Between strike days, many service will start late or be cancelled at short notice. We ask customers to avoid unnecessary journeys. If you must travel, please use journey planners".

It's probably, roughly, what some TOCs were saying - although I do feel the blanked DO NOT TRAVEL being pushed by others wasn't super sincere/helpful.

 

[Dave W]

Intrigued to hear learned users' thoughts on the "in-between" days.

I travelled KX-Edinburgh on Friday lunchtime and on departure I had a full table bay of 8 to myself (until a stag do of 7 for Newcastle had pleaded they'd been "double booked" and a member of staff asked if I'd kindly move to another table to "let these lads sit together" - rather wish I'd moved carriages, not tables )

Anyway - that train was pretty lightly loaded, and the return on Sunday wasn't at all full (despite a vast majority of reservations), so - and this is not intended to be a loaded question - did TOCs pitch it right for these days?

 

[SynthD]

Is this in hindsight? Now we know how many drivers opted to work, we can give more accurate advice on how many trains there were in service.

 

[Starmill]

Is this in hindsight? Now we know how many drivers opted to work, we can give more accurate advice on how many trains there were in service.

Well drivers have only been on strike at Greater Anglia (unless you're including tram drivers in London too). So I'm not sure what new information that offers. I imagine the number of drivers who worked on strike days was tiny.

 

[Moonshot]

Intrigued to hear learned users' thoughts on the "in-between" days.

I travelled KX-Edinburgh on Friday lunchtime and on departure I had a full table bay of 8 to myself (until a stag do of 7 for Newcastle had pleaded they'd been "double booked" and a member of staff asked if I'd kindly move to another table to "let these lads sit together" - rather wish I'd moved carriages, not tables )

Anyway - that train was pretty lightly loaded, and the return on Sunday wasn't at all full (despite a vast majority of reservations), so - and this is not intended to be a loaded question - did TOCs pitch it right for these days?

So far this week ( post strike ), trains have been horrendously quiet...... passengers appear to be losing faith now. My own TOC has been delivering poor service for some time now, clearly it's now having an impact. Until someone actually gets a grip of the outstanding issues with staff, this imo is only going to get worse.

 

[aleandrail]

Yes, exactly. 1tph should be fine. Instead, because of the messaging, I bet loads of people will go for the coaches which will be horribly crowded and won't be able to cope.

There is a real difference between saying what they are saying:

"Please use alternative methods of travel to the airport"

and what they could say

"Due to strike action, services will be less frequent than normal, and finish earlier than normal. You may want to consider using alternative methods of travel to the airport. Please check exact schedules before setting off".

In my eyes #2 is much better and still makes it clear that other methods may be preferable (though in nearly all cases; they won't be better than waiting for a 1tph train instead of a 2tph train).

Coaches would be full, not horribly crowded, and I would happily take a coach to get me to my destination while the train service is a tad slimmed down

 

[jon0844]

I travelled KX-Edinburgh on Friday lunchtime and on departure I had a full table bay of 8 to myself (until a stag do of 7 for Newcastle had pleaded they'd been "double booked" and a member of staff asked if I'd kindly move to another table to "let these lads sit together" - rather wish I'd moved carriages, not tables )

Anyway - that train was pretty lightly loaded, and the return on Sunday wasn't at all full (despite a vast majority of reservations), so - and this is not intended to be a loaded question - did TOCs pitch it right for these days?

On the weekdays after the strike, the fact first trains were between 0730-0830 meant that the first trains were quickly crush loaded, and on GTR first class was declassified until 1000.

Perhaps Sunday fared better because it was more leisure travel, and trains often start later anyway - so there simply wasn't the same demand.

 

[skyhigh]

Absolutely.

There is a tendency on here for people to criticise messaging that can be difficult to get right. I can’t help but notice the OP has on another thread criticised the railway for *not* warning him enough in relation to speed restriction related disruption, so it really can be a case of “damned either way”.

When only a small fraction of the service is expected to be running it’s much better to err on the side of caution, rather than encouraging people to travel into London when they might be unable to make a return journey, etc.

You simply cannot win. Northern had the big bold blanket "do not travel" plastered across their website, trains, stations, extra announcements etc.

On one of the strike days, passenger rocks up and asks me which platform his train is going from. There are no trains on that whole line for the entire day. When told that, they reply "well I've been commuting all last week and nobody told me".

 

[david737]

Intrigued to hear learned users' thoughts on the "in-between" days.

I travelled KX-Edinburgh on Friday lunchtime and on departure I had a full table bay of 8 to myself (until a stag do of 7 for Newcastle had pleaded they'd been "double booked" and a member of staff asked if I'd kindly move to another table to "let these lads sit together" - rather wish I'd moved carriages, not tables )

Anyway - that train was pretty lightly loaded, and the return on Sunday wasn't at all full (despite a vast majority of reservations), so - and this is not intended to be a loaded question - did TOCs pitch it right for these days?

I arrived back in the UK from Canada last Wednesday and had to travel from Heathrow back up to Harrogate, I reserved a seat on the 1433 Kings X to Leeds needn't have worried the coach I was in was barely half full for the entire journey and the 1659 Leeds to Harrogate was also quiet considering the time of day.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm also in favour of more honest messaging something like, "there will be a highly reduced service, with significantly reduced capacity on strike days. Between strike days, many service will start late or be cancelled at short notice. We ask customers to avoid unnecessary journeys. If you must travel, please use journey planners".

It's probably, roughly, what some TOCs were saying - although I do feel the blanked DO NOT TRAVEL being pushed by others wasn't super sincere/helpful.

The tone was often more “you are strong advised not to travel unless necessary”. Perhaps some TOCs went further, especially if a significant % of their network was completely unserved.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The service provision on strike days only worked because almost everyone stayed away. With vastly reduced capacity, I think the advice to not travel unless absolutely necessary was sensible.

If people begin to think it's probably okay, the trains will be crush loaded in minutes (as they were between strike days on the earliest trains).

But "DO NOT TRAVEL" isn't advice or a request, it's a command.

If a business is effectively telling its customers "Eff off, we don't want your custom" even on days when it's running a near normal service eventually those customers will find others means to travel permanently.

 

[Horizon22]

But "DO NOT TRAVEL" isn't advice or a request, it's a command.

If a business is effectively telling its customers "Eff off, we don't want your custom" even on days when it's running a near normal service eventually those customers will find others means to travel permanently.

Do Not Travel is fair at very specific times. It is essentially to say the chance of disruption is extremely likely, the options to recover from this warning are minimal, and you will not get the service you might expect.

It would actually be a dereliction of duty to not try to prevent people from getting into a situation that the business knows will be extremely difficult in advance.

Far too often TOCs have been too late on these sort of notices, leading to strandings for hours, egresses, customers sleeping at stations etc. One only needs to look at the storms earlier in the year and how much damage the railway suffered and how almost impossible it became to run a service for the benefit the message has. Now whether Do Not Travel was approriate when trains were still running (although the timetables were far worse than peak lockdown) is up for debate of course but quite big chunks were completely cut off and I think it's a fair statement. One week of strikes doesn't necessarily mean they will find "other means to travel permanently" although they may consider rail a bit more carefully.

 

[Kite159]

But "DO NOT TRAVEL" isn't advice or a request, it's a command.

If a business is effectively telling its customers "Eff off, we don't want your custom" even on days when it's running a near normal service eventually those customers will find others means to travel permanently.

Agreed there, especially last Sunday on SWR which was running a revised timetable due to engineering works at Raynes Park.

Looked like most passengers were simply ignoring that instruction based on how busy some of the trains were.

 

[43066]

If a business is effectively telling its customers "Eff off, we don't want your custom" even on days when it's running a near normal service eventually those customers will find others means to travel permanently.

What a strange thing to say. It really, really isn’t like telling anyone to “eff off”.

Do Not Travel is fair at very specific times. It is essentially to say the chance of disruption is extremely likely, the options to recover from this warning are minimal, and you will not get the service you might expect.

It would actually be a dereliction of duty to not try to prevent people from getting into a situation that the business knows will be extremely difficult in advance.

Far too often TOCs have been too late on these sort of notices, leading to strandings for hours, egresses, customers sleeping at stations etc. One only needs to look at the storms earlier in the year and how much damage the railway suffered and how almost impossible it became to run a service for the benefit the message has. Now whether Do Not Travel was approriate when trains were still running (although the timetables were far worse than peak lockdown) is up for debate of course but quite big chunks were completely cut off and I think it's a fair statement. One week of strikes doesn't necessarily mean they will find "other means to travel permanently" although they may consider rail a bit more carefully.

100%.

These threads come up over and over again, and always remind me of the Lewisham strandings during the “beast from the east. Southeastern had issued a “do not travel” warning, which was panned on here, only for several crush loaded trains to be stranded for hours in freezing conditions with no power.

Of course none of that will stop people who simply enjoy moaning for the sake of it from taking any excuse to criticise and stick the boot in.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

If you look how bad the service recovery was around the TOCs on non strike days I'm sure you certainly wouldn't suggest it was a case if everything working as normal.

Living in East Kent and struggling along with South Eastern the Wednesday and Sunday post strike days was bloody awful, the 1st train on those days was 15.00ish in most of the East of the network cutting Dover, Canterbury and Thanet off. Network Rail needing to do "well timed" electrical supply checks resulted in basically no usable service for 6 days so that DO NOT TRAVEL message was on point in some areas

 

[CaptainHaddock]

What a strange thing to say. It really, really isn’t like telling anyone to “eff off”.

What's strange about it? Supposing you went to a restaurant and they refused to serve you food? Would you keep coming back to that restaurant or would you find somewhere else to eat in future?

If a TOC is running no trains at all or a very limited service then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is fair enough. But if a TOC is running a near normal service on the days inbetween the strikes then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is saying to its customers "Yes, we can accommodate you on our trains but we really don't want your custom". That's what Northern did last week as can be seen by this press release.

Northern advises customers DO NOT TRAVEL during the week of RMT industrial action | Northern News

Northern Trains is asking customers not to travel on its services between 21 – 26 June because of industrial action by the RMT

media.northernrailway.co.uk

Northern advises customers DO NOT TRAVEL during the week of RMT industrial action

Northern Trains is asking customers not to travel on its services between 21 – 26 June because of industrial action by the RMT

The whole of the rail network is affected by strikes, planned for Tuesday 21, Thursday 23 and Saturday 25 June.

Northern is currently working with Network Rail to agree what services it can run with the industry prioritising essential routes on mainlines and routes in to major cities.
Therefore, the train operator is expecting to run a very limited timetable and is suggesting customers do not travel on the strike dates and, wherever possible, not to travel on those in-between as well. Customers should try to find alternative transport if their journey is essential.
Details of the services able to run will be released as soon as possible to customers. They are advised to visit northernrailway.co.uk/travel/strikes for the latest advice and information.
The timing of the strike action has a knock-on effect on the days in-between with disruption of operations, the displacement of their trains across the network and shift patterns.
In response to the RMT announcing strikes, Tricia Williams, chief operating officer at Northern, said: “Our ability to get customers where they want to be will be significantly impacted and our advice, regrettably, is simply not to travel during the week of strike action.
“We apologise in advance for the disruption and inconvenience that the RMT’s industrial action may cause. We continue to be keen to speak to the RMT to find a resolution and avoid any strikes.”
Northern usually runs nearly 2,000 services a day to 540 stations across the North of England.

 

[185143]

What's strange about it? Supposing you went to a restaurant and they refused to serve you food? Would you keep coming back to that restaurant or would you find somewhere else to eat in future?

If a TOC is running no trains at all or a very limited service then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is fair enough. But if a TOC is running a near normal service on the days inbetween the strikes then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is saying to its customers "Yes, we can accommodate you on our trains but we really don't want your custom". That's what Northern did last week as can be seen by this press release.

Northern advises customers DO NOT TRAVEL during the week of RMT industrial action | Northern News

Northern Trains is asking customers not to travel on its services between 21 – 26 June because of industrial action by the RMT

media.northernrailway.co.uk

I was on the first Northern service of the day on my line on the Wednesday in-between the Industrial Action. 9AM departure, 3 hours later than usual. It was FAR busier than normal, felt like being in the height of the peak period. Spoke to the dispatch staff when I got off who said their station had been very busy since the trains had restarted that morning.

 

[Matt_pool]

On the Wednesday and Friday Northern into and out of Liverpool started later than normal, but by mid morning it was back to a half hourly service on the Warrington/Man Oxford Rd line.

On both days I got a train home from Lime Street in the evening and had the whole carriage of a 4 car train (2 x 156) to myself.

 

[mrmartin]

What's strange about it? Supposing you went to a restaurant and they refused to serve you food? Would you keep coming back to that restaurant or would you find somewhere else to eat in future?

If a TOC is running no trains at all or a very limited service then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is fair enough. But if a TOC is running a near normal service on the days inbetween the strikes then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is saying to its customers "Yes, we can accommodate you on our trains but we really don't want your custom". That's what Northern did last week as can be seen by this press release.

Northern advises customers DO NOT TRAVEL during the week of RMT industrial action | Northern News

Northern Trains is asking customers not to travel on its services between 21 – 26 June because of industrial action by the RMT

media.northernrailway.co.uk

100% agree - this is exactly my point!

I don't agree with the damned if you do damned if you don't criticism - I'm not saying do not tell travellers about it! Even put a do not travel warning on the actual strike days - fine - the service was really limited. But it was often a blanket message even on the days when a basically normal but later starting service was running.

I can't help feel the TOCs have just given up now DFT is taking all revenue risk. There is literally no other business I can think of which would tell its customers to stay away even if they were offering a nearly completely normal service.

 

[SynthD]

But if a TOC is running a near normal service on the days inbetween the strikes then a "DO NOT TRAVEL" message is saying

Were there TOCs who said that once they knew how normal their service would be, because it had started?

 

[Birmingham]

Can we also talk about that the service some TOCs operated or, more aptly, did not operate?

West Midlands Railway did not operate any regional routes even on the in-between days: nothing on the Snow Hill lines, nothing to Worcester, Hereford, Shrewsbury. It surely cannot be said that is the best it could have done. Indeed GWR operated services from Worcester to London on the in-between days but you couldn’t get from Worcester to its nearest major city.

 

[Watershed]

Can we also talk about that the service some TOCs operated or, more aptly, did not operate?

West Midlands Railway did not operate any regional routes even on the in-between days: nothing on the Snow Hill lines, nothing to Worcester, Hereford, Shrewsbury. It surely cannot be said that is the best it could have done. Indeed GWR operated services from Worcester to London on the in-between days but you couldn’t get from Worcester to its nearest major city.

Their main diesel depot (Tyseley) was inaccessible due to long-planned engineering works. Most of the electric routes had a service.

 

[43066]

What's strange about it? Supposing you went to a restaurant and they refused to serve you food? Would you keep coming back to that restaurant or would you find somewhere else to eat in future?

It’s a very silly comparison. A restaurant closing early isn’t going to strand potentially thousands of people miles from home. The railway might if it gets the messaging wrong. Surely you can see that?

I can’t speak for Northern but the service around my way was massively reduced, started much later, finished much earlier than normal. If even 2022 levels of “normal” numbers of passengers had attempted to travel it would have been utter chaos. If Northern were unsure of what level or service they could offer, it was wise to err on the side of caution rather than to encourage more people to travel through luke warm messaging.

This nonsense about passengers not coming back is endlessly repeated on here and doesn’t get any less inaccurate each time it’s trotted out. Surprise surprise they’ve come back already, despite last week’s messaging.

100% agree - this is exactly my point!

I don't agree with the damned if you do damned if you don't criticism - I'm not saying do not tell travellers about it! Even put a do not travel warning on the actual strike days - fine - the service was really limited. But it was often a blanket message even on the days when a basically normal but later starting service was running.

I can't help feel the TOCs have just given up now DFT is taking all revenue risk. There is literally no other business I can think of which would tell its customers to stay away even if they were offering a nearly completely normal service.

As I noted above, you have another thread complaining about a TOC not warning you enough about heat related restrictions which causes you to be delayed. I dare say if you had been inconvenienced by strike action you’d be complaining about that instead, so a case in point of damned if you do damned if you don’t.