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Russia invades Ukraine

Gloster

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I can’t see Putin facing trial anywhere except Russia. If he is forced to back down, he will make quite sure that he is given an indemnity against being tried by ‘The West’. Whatever the situation, his position will be, ‘Agree to that or I keep on fighting.’ His only risk is that forces within Russia turn on him and they would be unlikely to turn him over to The West.
 
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dakta

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So you would consider the end of civilisation by way of global thermonuclear war preferable to Putin getting some of Ukraine (or even the UK)?

I wouldn't. I'd rather live under a despot than die pointlessly*. Bad leaders can always be removed later, it's happened many times over history.

* Very different from dying in a war where you were as an individual actively fighting against a despot.
Bluntly yes - mostly because it wouldn't likely be the end of civilisation, but also because nuclear weapons will likely always exist and the use of such weapons for bullying other nations is not something that can be allowed to become a norm. If it does then for all intents and purposes civilisation has already hit the dead end and it's just awaiting a flashpoint that will certainly come to pass.
 

Bletchleyite

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Bluntly yes - mostly because it wouldn't likely be the end of civilisation, but also because nuclear weapons will likely always exist and the use of such weapons for bullying other nations is not something that can be allowed to become a norm. If it does then for all intents and purposes civilisation has already hit the dead end and it's just awaiting a flashpoint that will certainly come to pass.

You're entitled to that view, but I think it's basically a suicidal one.
 

GS250

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A tactical nuke on Ukraine probably wouldn't, but any exchange with the West almost certainly would, at least in terms of most of what is north of the Equator.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Fewer than would die pointlessly in global thermonuclear conflict. Far fewer.

Nuclear conflict between NATO and Russia is to be avoided at all costs. And I mean that - all costs. I would rather the UK was occupied by Russia than a large scale nuclear exchange occured, not that that is in any way likely nor desirable in and of itself.

Unarmed populations are effectively vulnerable to an oppressive government whether existing or being usurped during a conflict. This is one reason why the Americans are loathe to give up their weapons. Imagine trying to rule a country by force that has a heavily armed population.
 

najaB

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Nuclear conflict between NATO and Russia is to be avoided at all costs. And I mean that - all costs. I would rather the UK was occupied by Russia than a large scale nuclear exchange occured, not that that is in any way likely nor desirable in and of itself.
The things is, that calculation also applies on the Russian side. Their military know that if they start a nuclear conflict it's the end for them as well. So they will do everything that they can to avoid it as well, despite Putin's sabre rattling.
 

dakta

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You're entitled to that view, but I think it's basically a suicidal one.

I don't think you'll get away from that, it's just a case of whether you're going to be on the passive-assistance side in getting there

I don't seriously think russia will be dropping nukes anywhere or anytime unless someones actually on their turf. If they did then it's going to happen anyway because there will always be disputes and if we're flying nukes about because the country we're invading isn't surrendering how we would want them to then you know as far as the world being completely toast, we're already there even if nobodies actually pulled the trigger yet.

It's not nice but line needs to be drawn IMO. You don't need to actually respond to their sabre rattling but the threat of being struck with nuclear weapons should be shown the contempt it deserves not appeasement.
 
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52290

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The things is, that calculation also applies on the Russian side. Their military know that if they start a nuclear conflict it's the end for them as well. So they will do everything that they can to avoid it as well, despite Putin's sabre rattling.
Khrushchev once said that in nuclear war the living will envy the dead.
 

DustyBin

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Very high if we directly attacked Russian troops in Russia, but Russia's policy is to only use nuclear weapons if the integrity of the Russian state is under threat. It is unlikely that the generals* would consider escalating to a strategic nuclear strike if there was a conventional attack on Russian forces in another country.

*Note, it's the generals that matter, not Putin.

Is that definitely correct in all instances? My understanding is that in the case of Russia’s submarine based weapons, Putin has direct control. Although it still requires the relevant officer to carry out the order of course.

The key thing is that the war isn’t, and is extremely unlikely to be, an existential threat to Russia. Nobody has any interest in attacking Russia itself, however Putin knows that if NATO were to intervene in Ukraine it would all be over in a few days at most. He therefore needs a deterrent and likes to remind everybody that he has one. It’s worth remembering that a lot of his sabre rattling is for domestic consumption as well.
 

simonw

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Remember that there once was the time in Germany that there were people who lived under a despot and died pointlessly.
since man has lived on this earth, there have been a lot of people who lived in many many countries that at one time or another have been under a despot and died pointlessly. Im not sure what point you are making.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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since man has lived on this earth, there have been a lot of people who lived in many many countries that at one time or another have been under a despot and died pointlessly. Im not sure what point you are making.
This was a response to another contributor who claimed he was prepared to do that. Look up his posting and respond to him.
 

najaB

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Is that definitely correct in all instances? My understanding is that in the case of Russia’s submarine based weapons, Putin has direct control. Although it still requires the relevant officer to carry out the order of course.
I'm not 100% sure but everything I've read indicates that the nuclear briefcase doesn't contain an actual launch button, the command still has to go through the military chain of command. What I have seen is that the land-based missiles can be launched by the generals without the on-site launch commanders being involved.
 

dgl

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The things is, that calculation also applies on the Russian side. Their military know that if they start a nuclear conflict it's the end for them as well. So they will do everything that they can to avoid it as well, despite Putin's sabre rattling.
I reckon if Putin actually asked the people responsible to launch a nuclear strike he would be removed from power pretty quickly, like all despots he had people around him to keep everyone in check, once their support is lost Putin is a gonner.
 

adc82140

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I have been mildly amused by a report in the Russian media today that the head of Roscosmos (their equivalent of NASA) has been circulating pictures of places like Whitehall, with co ordinates, saying "look what we can see". The position of Whitehall isn't exactly a state secret. I believe Google Maps will show you a picture with co ordinates as well.
 

Doppelganger

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The comment is not targetted at Norway - it was merely a practical suggestion as to how the EU/EEA could reduce dependence on Russian gas supplies. It would be countries outside the EU/EEA that currently import gas from Norway who would need to find other suppliers.
So since the UK is neither in the EU nor the EEA, Norway should stop sending it's gas to the UK.

More than 40% of the UK's gas is sourced from Norway, so it should now be sent to the Netherlands, Denmark and on to Germany since they need to replace their reliance on Russian gas.
 

dgl

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I have been mildly amused by a report in the Russian media today that the head of Roscosmos (their equivalent of NASA) has been circulating pictures of places like Whitehall, with co ordinates, saying "look what we can see". The position of Whitehall isn't exactly a state secret. I believe Google Maps will show you a picture with co ordinates as well.
Yes lot's of unblurred "targets" on various mapping sites, a lot (if not all) of our nuclear facilities for one (something countries like France blur out), a whole website dedicated to pictures of our civilian broadcasting sites, big "secret" things generally don't stay secret for long.
Maybe we should tell him that "shock horror" we know where the Kremlin is!
 

Wilts Wanderer

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This is not at all a defence of Putin, an utterly evil monster who needs to be brought before Nuremberg-style trials when this is over, and receive the death penalty. You can utterly loathe Putin and his monstrous invasion of Ukraine while still wishing to avoid nuclear conflict.

I would say this reflects my own view pretty well.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would say this reflects my own view pretty well.

Yes, I have no time for Putin at all any more than I have time for a thug who pulls a knife or gun on me and asks for my wallet. But if they do, they'll get my wallet, because it's better than death. But afterwards I would certainly want them to be brought to justice in due course.
 

DustyBin

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I'm not 100% sure but everything I've read indicates that the nuclear briefcase doesn't contain an actual launch button, the command still has to go through the military chain of command. What I have seen is that the land-based missiles can be launched by the generals without the on-site launch commanders being involved.

I think you’re correct about the briefcase not containing an actual button, thankfully. I’m sure I read however that Putin is able to issue the order directly to submarine commanders so there’s no chain of command per se (or at least the chain is very short!).

It’s worth pointing out that this isn’t all that dissimilar to the UK’s nuclear chain of command in so far as the PM issues the order, and as it would invariably be in retaliation to a first strike I’d fully expect it to be carried out. There are failsafe mechanisms but the PM has the authority to order a strike. Alternatively the submarine commander would open the letter of last resort which is written by the serving PM, and again I would fully expect them to act as instructed (however that may be).
 

dgl

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I think you’re correct about the briefcase not containing an actual button, thankfully. I’m sure I read however that Putin is able to issue the order directly to submarine commanders so there’s no chain of command per se (or at least the chain is very short!).

It’s worth pointing out that this isn’t all that dissimilar to the UK’s nuclear chain of command in so far as the PM issues the order, and as it would invariably be in retaliation to a first strike I’d fully expect it to be carried out. There are failsafe mechanisms but the PM has the authority to order a strike. Alternatively the submarine commander would open the letter of last resort which is written by the serving PM, and again I would fully expect them to act as instructed (however that may be).
Though I'd hate to think what Boris' "letter of last resort would be",
"umm sorry chaps seem someone made an error, not me of course, so we're doomed. Bye!"
 

Chingy

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I find Rueters to be a rather reliable source of news. Here is an article of how Russia's nuclear arsenal is controlled;


WHO DECIDES TO LAUNCH RUSSIAN NUCLEAR WEAPONS?​

A 2020 document called "Basic Principles of State Policy of the Russian Federation on Nuclear Deterrence" says the Russian president takes the decision to use nuclear weapons. A small briefcase, known as the Cheget, is kept close to the president at all times, linking him to the command and control network of Russia's strategic nuclear forces. The Cheget does not contain a nuclear launch button but rather transmits launch orders to the central military command - the General Staff.

Essentially, Putin is in a rather powerful position and "could" have a big impact on Western European (& worldwide) lives for the foreseeable future.
 

Yew

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I think if we directly attacked Russian troops there would be a very high chance of it escalating to that.
My understanding is that Russian and US airmen directly engaged and shot each other down 18 times between 1950 and 1970; how many nuclear wars did that cause?
 

Chingy

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My understanding is that Russian and US airmen directly engaged and shot each other down 18 times between 1950 and 1970; how many nuclear wars did that cause?

There was the Cuban missile crisis within that time envelope. As close to nuclear war as anything so far.
 

Trackman

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I think you’re correct about the briefcase not containing an actual button, thankfully. I’m sure I read however that Putin is able to issue the order directly to submarine commanders so there’s no chain of command per se (or at least the chain is very short!).

It’s worth pointing out that this isn’t all that dissimilar to the UK’s nuclear chain of command in so far as the PM issues the order, and as it would invariably be in retaliation to a first strike I’d fully expect it to be carried out. There are failsafe mechanisms but the PM has the authority to order a strike. Alternatively the submarine commander would open the letter of last resort which is written by the serving PM, and again I would fully expect them to act as instructed (however that may be).
Submarines listen to Radio 4! If it goes silent then they authority to open the PM's letter on what to do next. Tony Blair said he felt physically sick after writing the letter.

On the Russian nuclear briefcase, the only country that has admitted opening the briefcase and actually entering the launch codes and then waiting for someone order a launch is Russia. This was actually after the cold war, it was the Norway scientific rocket indecent in 1995, they did tell Russia but someone forgot to tell his superiors about it . Bush opened the Football during 9/11 only to realise that the 'Where to bomb' book was about 30 years out of date so it had to be updated. Codes where not entered, so they say.

Back to the shopping mall rocket attack, Russia have said they were aiming for an arms depot. Make of that what you will.
 

DustyBin

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I find Rueters to be a rather reliable source of news. Here is an article of how Russia's nuclear arsenal is controlled;




Essentially, Putin is in a rather powerful position and "could" have a big impact on Western European (& worldwide) lives for the foreseeable future.

As per my previous post though that’s not dissimilar to the situation in the UK (and I suspect in any other nuclear armed country). The question is whether Putin would order a first strike, and if so under what circumstances. He says he wouldn’t unless Russia faced an existential threat, and for what it’s worth I believe him (for once), however what is meant by “existential threat” isn’t entirely clear.

Which reminds me, what I said earlier wasn’t technically correct:

it would invariably be in retaliation to a first strike

In practice I think this would almost certainly be the case, but like Russia the UK doesn’t actually state what exactly would trigger a nuclear response.
 

brad465

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Great news coming out of NATO, Turkey has finally dropped its objections to Finland and Sweden joining NATO! https://news.sky.com/story/nato-tur...and-and-swedens-bid-to-join-alliance-12642100

Hopefully they will now join relatively quickly. Putin invaded Ukraine intending to weaken NATO, but in actuality NATO is going to come out of the invasion stronger.
What's also good about this is it increases Europe's own strength independent of the US, which I don't think Europe as a whole should be reliant on long term.
 

ainsworth74

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Here is an article of how Russia's nuclear arsenal is controlled
That's basically identical to how it works for the US as well. The Nuclear Football contains the launch codes, retaliation options and some sort of communications ability. But all that really does is enable the US President to authorise the release of nuclear weapons. The launch orders are generated and actioned by the US military. It would seem that Russia operates on the similar basis with the Cheget (their Nuclear Football) being used to allow the President of Russia to authorise the release of nuclear weapons with the actual commands transmitted by the Russian military.

Submarines listen to Radio 4! If it goes silent then they authority to open the PM's letter on what to do next.
Er not quite. The UK ballistic missile submarine on patrol uses a variety of methods to keep an eye on whether or not a catastrophe has occurred. For one thing they monitor regular message traffic (one way, they listen, they don't transmit) from the MoD, if that were to go down for a period of time then they would move to alternatives such as sampling the atmosphere (is it, you know, radioactive) and also listen out for civilian transmissions, such as Radio 4 Long Wave (preferred as long wave of course has a tremendous range). It's not quite as simple as there being a technical fault at Broadcasting House triggered a UK nuclear response!

Bush opened the Football during 9/11 only to realise that the 'Where to bomb' book was about 30 years out of date so it had to be updated. Codes where not entered, so they say.
Are you sure about that? I'm not aware of any sources that state that Bush had to open the Nuclear Football, why would he, it wasn't clear who was attacking the United States? There's even less to suppose that any launch codes were being bandied about. Again, why would they? Who were they going to use nuclear weapons against? Sounds rather like hyperbole to me...
My understanding is that Russian and US airmen directly engaged and shot each other down 18 times between 1950 and 1970; how many nuclear wars did that cause?

None, thankfully, as cooler heads prevailed. But that isn't the risk. The risk isn't that US/NATO and Russian aircraft shoot each other down and Russia retaliates with a nuclear strike. Why would they? That would be insane as they'd be killed by NATOs second strike. And whilst I have my doubts about Putin I'm fairly certain that he isn't a) insane and b) wants to rule over more than nuclear cinders.

No, the risk is miscalculation. It's nuclear war by accident when no-one intended to start one. It's the miscalculation during a crisis when everyone is under incredible stress, when everyone is tired, when everyone is scared. That's when a nuclear war will start. Not through some cold blooded and calculated first strike but when someone screws up catastrophically.

We've nearly been there. During the Cuban Missile crisis the biggest danger wasn't that Khrushchev or Kennedy would actually use nuclear weapons it was when a Soviet submarine commander, who had been out of contact with Moscow for several days, felt that he was under attack by the US Navy (who were dropping training depth charges to try and get him to surface but which could cause no real damage) and considering the grim nature of the last news he had received attempted to use a nuclear torpedo against the 'attacking' Americans. He was unable to do as as it required three officers, himself, the Political Officer and, as they were aboard, the submarine flotilla commander to all agree. The flotilla commander did not. The submarine surfaced and there was no war. This all went down at the climax of the crisis. If group of US Navy destroyers had suddenly been vaporised by a nuclear strike, that no-one in the Soviet Union had authorised, the results would surely have been catastrophic.

Or there was the incident in 1979 where training tapes were accidently fed into the live NORAD computer system which simulated a massive Soviet first strike on the United States. This occurred during a time of comparative stability and within a few minutes satellites had been able to confirm that there were no Soviet missiles inbound. But if it had occurred during a crisis of the tension of Cuba? If it occurred whilst NATO and Russian forces were engaged active combat? Or the famous 1983 Petrov incident where Soviet satellites reported US launches due to sunlight reflecting off of clouds over the mid-western United States but for one man deciding it must be a false alarm and failed to report it up the chain of command. Do we have confidence that if NATO forces were bombing Russian troops in eastern Ukraine and a report is made by Russian early warning systems that a NATO nuclear strike is underway that a modern day Petrov wouldn't pass that up the chain of command? That given minutes (NATO submarine launched ballistic missiles are probably no more than five or ten minutes flight time from Moscow depending on deployment zone) to decide if this is real or not that Putin will not order a counter-strike?

I agree, a NATO fighter shooting down a Russian aircraft will not start a nuclear war. I also don't think that Putin is crazy enough to start one (though maybe Boris is if he needs to distract from another domestic political issue though ;)). I do however think that in the heat of a crisis it is highly probable that even a tiny miscalculation could start a devastating nuclear war that no-one actually wanted or intended. That is the real risk.
 

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