Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[Mcq]

My grip is with the bloody mindedness of TFL (and their map) which implies that you cannot get on the Eliz line at Oxford Circus, Barbican or Moorgate, which is untrue.
It is ridiculous to expect commuters to know that these stations are 'twinned' with Bond Street, Farringdon and Liverpool street - how would you know that?!
Equally the PIS on the Great Northern services into Moorgate, when listing onward connections, fails to mention that there is access to the Eliz Line.
Travellers from Hertford to Paddington - for which you would use Moorgate - are they really expected to look up Liverpool Street?

 

[swt_passenger]

My grip is with the bloody mindedness of TFL (and their map) which implies that you cannot get on the Eliz line at Oxford Circus, Barbican or Moorgate, which is untrue.
It is ridiculous to expect commuters to know that these stations are 'twinned' with Bond Street, Farringdon and Liverpool street - how would you know that?!
Equally the PIS on the Great Northern services into Moorgate, when listing onward connections, fails to mention that there is access to the Eliz Line.
Travellers from Hertford to Paddington - for which you would use Moorgate - are they really expected to look up Liverpool Street?

Oxford Circus is intentionally not twinned with Bond St, the secondary entrance to Bond St is fairly near, 300 yards away in Hanover Square, but it is definitely not linked internally to Oxford St.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks for that - I also understand that in the event the Eliz line only connects to Westbound services at Barbican as planned bridge didn't occur - Wiki

Elizabeth line[edit]​

Elizabeth line platforms at Farringdon are connected to Barbican's westbound platform.
Farringdon's Barbican ticket hall for the Elizabeth line is just to the west of Barbican station along Long Lane.[34] This construction involved significant changes at the western end of the station, including the demolition of the former signal box[12] to construct a lift shaft from the Elizabeth line station to the westbound Underground platform only. The original plan of a new footbridge spanning the tracks to the eastbound platform was not proceeded with on the grounds of engineering difficulties.[35][36] Work was anticipated to be completed in 2018, but was completed in May 2022.[37][38]

Nevertheless the latest TFL map does show Moorgate directly connected to the Eliz line - so at least that could be sorted - regarding Great Northern's PIS

 

[Adoarable]

Nevertheless the latest TFL map does show Moorgate directly connected to the Eliz line - so at least that could be sorted - regarding Great Northern's PIS

The Tube map does show the connection, it's just the Tube&Rail map that doesn't. So it's not bloody-mindedness, it's either a mistake or a deliberate decision to simplify the map. And for Great Northern's PIS you need to blame GTR, not TfL.

 

[Mojo]

My grip is with the bloody mindedness of TFL (and their map) which implies that you cannot get on the Eliz line at Oxford Circus, Barbican or Moorgate, which is untrue.
It is ridiculous to expect commuters to know that these stations are 'twinned' with Bond Street, Farringdon and Liverpool street - how would you know that?!

What exactly do you mean by this? Oxford Circus is not connected with Bond Street in any way. What exactly would be the purpose of showing Barbican as an interchange, not only is access via a single lift from the extreme end of one of the platforms, but you’d just change at the stations either side if you wanted to connect between the Met and Crossrail. Similarly, Liverpool St and Moorgate are quite clearly shown as connected, on the Tube Map, automated announcements on trains, and also on the car line diagrams.

Any complaints about lack of announcements on GTR trains would be the responsibility of the operator, not TfL.

 

[Mcq]

Seems I have been misinformed. - apologies
Re GTR - I'll contact them - thank you

 

[ijmad]

I think there is a case for dotted walking lines between Farringdon's Elizabeth Line blob and Barbican, similar to Canary Wharf, and eventually Bond Street too, but they don't seem to show the dotted lines for most of the Zone 1 walkable interchanges, I guess there'd just be too many.

 

[jon0844]

Equally the PIS on the Great Northern services into Moorgate, when listing onward connections, fails to mention that there is access to the Eliz Line.
Travellers from Hertford to Paddington - for which you would use Moorgate - are they really expected to look up Liverpool Street?

I bet the DfT has to agree funding to make any changes to the PIS on the 700s and 717s! Likewise, TfL Rail needs to be renamed on the running status page.

 

[Taunton]

Yes . Good example. The 'mixed mode tax' used to cause widespread resentment in London that people in places without a tube (like most of South London) paid more to get into the centre for a less frequent service and the bother of changing.

It's also a difference to many other world places that if you use a feeder bus to get to the station, you pay separately for that, more than someone making a much longer journey wholly in the same zones just on the Underground. In fact if you live somewhere quite close in, Beulah Hill in Norwood for example, to go to Oxford Circus, you have to pay three fares, one for the bus to your station, one for National Rail, one for the Underground. And three to come home again.

 

[Mojo]

I think there is a case for dotted walking lines between Farringdon's Elizabeth Line blob and Barbican, similar to Canary Wharf, and eventually Bond Street too, but they don't seem to show the dotted lines for most of the Zone 1 walkable interchanges, I guess there'd just be too many.

The purpose of the dotted lines is to show interchanges that would allow a journey to be made that would otherwise be significantly longer. There is no logic in an interchange between Farringdon and Barbican as they are both on the same line.

 

[tomuk]

The purpose of the dotted lines is to show interchanges that would allow a journey to be made that would otherwise be significantly longer. There is no logic in an interchange between Farringdon and Barbican as they are both on the same line.

If the fuller fat connection at Barbican had gone head there is logic to sign that as the interchange with the Sub surface lines to spread the passenger load around.

I have seen it suggested that the double ended Elizabeth Line stations be dual named eg Bond Street/Hanover Square or Farringdon/Barbican to better indicate potential interchanges and the area served by each end of the 250m or longer stations.

I can see some merit in that suggestion but it has potential to create more problems.

 

[telstarbox]

Planning a journey and Google Maps suggests a 4 minute connection from Elizabeth line to Thameslink at Farringdon - is that realistic?

 

[AM9]

Planning a journey and Google Maps suggests a 4 minute connection from Elizabeth line to Thameslink at Farringdon - is that realistic?

Yes, provided you alight the Lizzie train at the western end (i.e. front westbound/rear eastbound).

 

[greatkingrat]

The purpose of the dotted lines is to show interchanges that would allow a journey to be made that would otherwise be significantly longer. There is no logic in an interchange between Farringdon and Barbican as they are both on the same line.

Not so much for interchanges, but I wonder if there will be passengers heading to Barbican who take EL to Farringdon and then change for one stop on the Circle!

 

[Watershed]

Planning a journey and Google Maps suggests a 4 minute connection from Elizabeth line to Thameslink at Farringdon - is that realistic?

The official connection time at Farringdon is still just 3 minutes. I suspect that will be changed in due course to become more like 10 minutes for TL <-> EL and for the 3 minutes to become an exception for TL <-> TL changes, just as some other stations have reduced MCTs for changes between certain TOCs.

Beware that Google Maps does not take into account MCTs or necessarily the actual walking distance involved in a change. In this particular case 4 minutes is tight but doable if you know what you're doing, but probably unrealistic if you get off at the wrong end of the train, walk slowly and don't use any shortcuts.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Behind all the hype, The Elizabeth Line is actually not part of the Tube but, in all material respects, akin to the Overground.
Trains built to main line loading gauge - yes (although some LUL trains meet that criterion too)
Trains numbered in TOPS scheme - yes
Part of National Rail network - yes
Track partly owned by Network Rail - yes (although that also applies to parts of the Bakerloo and District)
Track partly owned by TfL - yes (cf Dalston to New Cross Gate)
Fares at special rates outside Greater London - yes (cf Watford Junction)

 

[ijmad]

Behind all the hype, The Elizabeth Line is actually not part of the Tube but, in all material respects, akin to the Overground.
Trains built to main line loading gauge - yes (although some LUL trains meet that criterion too)
Trains numbered in TOPS scheme - yes
Part of National Rail network - yes
Track partly owned by Network Rail - yes (although that also applies to parts of the Bakerloo and District)
Track partly owned by TfL - yes (cf Dalston to New Cross Gate)
Fares at special rates outside Greater London - yes (cf Watford Junction)

Agreed, in a way it's very similar to the East London Line - the core section of that is owned by TfL, not Network Rail, but it connects to Network Rail lines with mixed traffic on them.

Plus, run by a private company under contract.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Those awful people bellowing into the microphone, basically repeating what Emma Hignett says but in a very rushed far less clear voice - what actually is their purpose? They don’t despatch the train. I didn’t even see them checking the doors to make sure no one was stuck. They just make an unbearable racket, especially the guy at Canary Wharf who kept going “Tottenham Ct Road and Paaaaaaaaddingtonnnnnn”.

 

[Tim_UK]

How is it inconsiderate? The last day of BST is completely irrelevant for track closures!

Well. It potentially is. UTC to BST (and the other way) changeovers just attract bugs in software.

Every once in a while systems come crashing down because of a bug in how daylight savings time is handled, or through the change over. And occasionally during leap years.

I remember one device that changed time a week early and caused a lot of complaints and confusion.

I’ve 35 years experience as a software developer on loads and loads of different systems. It’s apparently not a solved problem. (Just this week I was telling a colleague that their method wouldn’t work during a leap year)

We could save the uk software industry millions by sticking with UTC all year.

 

[J-2739]

Those awful people bellowing into the microphone, basically repeating what Emma Hignett says but in a very rushed far less clear voice - what actually is their purpose? They don’t despatch the train. I didn’t even see them checking the doors to make sure no one was stuck. They just make an unbearable racket, especially the guy at Canary Wharf who kept going “Tottenham Ct Road and Paaaaaaaaddingtonnnnnn”.

I'm sorry, I agree, they are an irritant. I thought they held back for only busy periods to control the crowds, but you can hear them spouting off when there's only about ten people on the whole platform. Emma Hignett's announcements are already clear and concise, so it is a shame for this to happen. Also, what is the business in announcing each station stop in such a metro environment? Is this a requirement? What are they going to do when trains start through running to Reading?!

 

[James H]

Planning a journey and Google Maps suggests a 4 minute connection from Elizabeth line to Thameslink at Farringdon - is that realistic?

Changing to Thameslink northbound or southbound?

If southbound, use the lift from the EL to TL.

 

[Acton1991]

I'm sorry, I agree, they are an irritant. I thought they held back for only busy periods to control the crowds, but you can hear them spouting off when there's only about ten people on the whole platform. Emma Hignett's announcements are already clear and concise, so it is a shame for this to happen. Also, what is the business in announcing each station stop in such a metro environment? Is this a requirement? What are they going to do when trains start through running to Reading?!

I completely agree too - it is beyond frustrating and just noise pollution. With such clear, digital signage, automated voices as well as large, spacious platforms why are we giving these assistants a microphone? It’s really not needed.

 

[Taunton]

Had to go yesterday lunchtime from Canary Wharf to Hayes, and then later on to Slough, so all useful. A few observations though.

Started at East India DLR, came back to Custom House because that's easier than changing at Canary Wharf. The perplexing gates between the two there still have to be manned to send people back to touch out from the DLR.

Missed train by a few seconds, the next one just sat down at the westbound platform for 10 minutes. There was I think one driver announcement but it was inaudible (in contrast to "See it" etc, which of course booms out maximum volume). As on the opening day I was on a train that got terminated short here, I seem to be a jinx on the service here.

At Paddington, lots of notices that to continue westbound go to platforms 11, 12, 14. Except when you get there the entrances have been completely divided, far apart, and there in no indication at all of which is next, or indeed at that point of any departures from those platforms. 11 is on the main Lawn, 12 (with separate gateline) is a couple of minutes round a corner, and 14 is way down at the far end of 12. Staff said look at main Lawn indicator, which involves considerable backtracking and then penetrating amongst the majority GWR departures, but is then several minutes walk to get to 14, which if next departure on a frequent service is likely to have gone by the time you get there. Not helped by there seemingly being different standard combinations of platform usage between peak and off-peak.

Did notice that some mobile real-time departure indicators had been wheeled out, but stupidly have been positioned in corners, only facing incoming passengers and completely invisible to those heading for trains! Yes, I did miss the next departure I should have got.

Stopped at Hanwell, restored as a historic station. Having done this on the various elements, TfL ruined it by plastering, probably in a separate project, their own equipment and image over everything, so modern lighting poles, big purple roundels thrown down at random duplicating the historic signs, etc. What a mess.

Did eventually get to Hayes, which is I presume a TfL station, but the PA spends most time announcing every minute or two to stand clear from the Up Main platform for inbound expresses. As this is fully fenced and gated the length of the passenger area, seems pointless.

On to Slough, complete ambiguity on which TfL tickets are valid beyond West Drayton. Oyster, Contactless, Paper, Freedom Pass, 60+, Child Zip Card, which are valid? (I think the answer is two of these six, but it depends on the colour of the paint of the train). Indicator in train at West Drayton just says "Oyster not valid beyond here". So I asked the "customer facing" staff at Slough to explain it to me. It's apparent that there's a considerable begrudgement by GWR staff against the Elizabeth line service, from all the evasive answers received.

 

[Acton1991]

Anyone know what the ‘urgent track repairs’ at Heathrow are this evening?

 

[JN114]

Anyone know what the ‘urgent track repairs’ at Heathrow are this evening?

Damaged set of points at Airport Jn on the Up Main that has resulted in some bidirectional moves not being available; and a disruptive speed restriction + intrusive inspections between trains for the past couple of days.

Planned possession of the top end of the Airport Branch tonight has been extended back to start early and account for additional work in the possession.

 

[Horizon22]

At Paddington, lots of notices that to continue westbound go to platforms 11, 12, 14. Except when you get there the entrances have been completely divided, far apart, and there in no indication at all of which is next, or indeed at that point of any departures from those platforms. 11 is on the main Lawn, 12 (with separate gateline) is a couple of minutes round a corner, and 14 is way down at the far end of 12. Staff said look at main Lawn indicator, which involves considerable backtracking and then penetrating amongst the majority GWR departures, but is then several minutes walk to get to 14, which if next departure on a frequent service is likely to have gone by the time you get there. Not helped by there seemingly being different standard combinations of platform usage between peak and off-peak.

What entrances have been "divided, far apart"? It has always been the case than P10&P11 are an island and P12&P14 are an island. The hoardings are essentially to keep the roof from caving in, and is a substantial piece of building work that's been going on for years. You can't blame the operator for the platform infrastructure the relief line services go from - Liverpool St is lucky in that you connect via the main Underground entrance which puts you pretty much right in the middle of all the platforms and is not too hard a walk for Shenfield (although a much longer walk between Elizabeth Line platform to National Rail concourse).

It is unfortunate that the higher platforms have been gradually tagged onto the main element of the station but such has been the way to increase capacity in decades gone by. As with any station, I wouldn't walk anywhere (notwithstanding RTT!) without a platform advertised but in the standard off-peak and barring disruption 11-14 are indeed the Elizabeth line platforms. I'd agree it might be better if the words "usually depart from..." are included as others platforms are occasionally used.

The crossfall at Paddington has indeed got fairly dramatic especially at peak; I don't disagree that trying to navigate the whole concourse to continue Westbound whilst weaving around people moving to/from the lower numbered platform gatelines, waiting by departure screens, using the coffee shops or Burger King, wheeling bags towards Heathrow Express, aiming for the Tube or just going about their business is quite the ordeal. It is hopefully fairly short-term only though these connections of course!

 

[Taunton]

What entrances have been "divided, far apart"? It has always been the case than P10&P11 are an island and P12&P14 are an island.

I'm a bit lost here. If you are not aware of how the gatelines for 11 and for 12/14 are widely separated then do please go and have a look.

You might suspect I have been familiar with Paddington for longer than most here.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm a bit lost here. If you are not aware of how the gatelines for 11 and for 12/14 are widely separated then do please go and have a look.

You might suspect I have been familiar with Paddington for longer than most here.

They are indeed widely separated. But that is because of the layout of the platforms and the structures work that has been going on for many years. They were always “far apart”, and are somewhat divided but it’s not by choice. It’s why waiting by the departure screens nearest to platforms 8/9 is always advised if the platform isn’t yet advertised as 99% of the time the train will be on those higher platforms.

Again I refer to the fact that the operator has to manage with the infrastructure available which in this case was always intended to be temporary before through running.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It is hopefully fairly short-term only though these connections of course!

From September it will likely get worse until trains can run through Paddington

 

[Acton1991]

From September it will likely get worse until trains can run through Paddington

Right now it’s an absolute nightmare, especially during peak!

Platform 12 is especially awful. The placement of the barriers causes massive bottlenecks as it’s placed behind where the first carriage comes to a stop, so many passengers have to loop round and join queues for the barriers.