Southeastern (and maybe others) get nasty on OEPs

[MikeWh]

I've just become aware that Southeastern are taking a very hard line with Oystercard holders who should have an OEP set but don't. Originally if you travelled from inside your stored travelcard area to outside and touched in and out at each end of your journey you would be correctly charged for the zones used which are not on your stored travelcard. The danger was that if you met an RPI while outside of your zones you might be liable to a PF because no maximum fare had been deducted from your balance.

Anyway, one particular contact tells me that he made several journeys last year from Bexleyheath to London Bridge or Waterloo East and had no problems. He even had his card read on the slope at Waterloo East and the RPI just pointed to the validator and reminded him to touch out. The travelcard was a zone 3-5 one by the way. Then, out of the blue last summer he tried to exit at London Bridge and the gate said "Seek assistance". When he did this he was given a penalty fare. Ouch! I also heard just last week from a friend who had a similar story at Cannon Street a couple of weeks ago. In his case he didn't get a PF, and I'll need to apologise to him because I blamed it on lack of credit rather than the lack of OEP.

The first guy did manage to get his PF overturned and you can read his letter here.

What I'd be especially interested in is anyone who can confirm how widespread this issue is. Is it just SET, or SN and SWT too. What about if the guy had gone Bexleyheath - New Cross - Canada Water - London Bridge LU which is also doable without touching out and in en route?

 

[barrykas]

What I'd be especially interested in is anyone who can confirm how widespread this issue is. Is it just SET, or SN and SWT too. What about if the guy had gone Bexleyheath - New Cross - Canada Water - London Bridge LU which is also doable without touching out and in en route?

That'd also need an OEP set, as the Zones 3-5 Travelcard is only valid as far as Lewisham. He could, however, do Bexleyheath - Lewisham - Canary Wharf/Heron Quays (DLR) - (walk to) Canary Wharf (Jubilee) - London Bridge (Jubilee) without an OEP, as Lewisham's a Zone 2/3 station.

I don't think our RPIs are enforcing the OEP requirement yet, but I always set one for passengers where necessary. (And once managed to set one for myself when it wasn't, and promptly got lumbered with a £4.30 charge at Paddington when I went to the Nero on the paid side of the barriers).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks Barry. My example was deliberately one which should need an OEP but ended on TfL territory rather than SET. Are you suggesting that TfL gatelines wouldn't object, but would just apply the correct fare?

 

[barrykas]

Thanks Barry. My example was deliberately one which should need an OEP but ended on TfL territory rather than SET. Are you suggesting that TfL gatelines wouldn't object, but would just apply the correct fare?

OEP is a kludge that the TOCs insisted on as part of the agreement for the full rollout of Oyster within the zones back in January 2010. OEPs are NOT needed for LU/DLR/Overground journeys, or for journeys starting outside the validity of the Travelcard.

Having said that, you SHOULD be charged the correct fare on touching out on National Rail whether you've got an OEP set or not, though I have yet to test this theory. Though, as previously noted, this leaves you open to being Penalty Fared, even though staff guidelines say that discretion should be used!

So, for example, if you have a Zones 2-4 Travelcard loaded:

• Finsbury Park - Kings Cross on First Capital Connect : OEP required
• Finsbury Park - King's Cross St. Pancras on LU : No OEP required
• Kings Cross - Finsbury Park on either FCC or LU : No OEP required
• Hadley Wood - Kings Cross/Moorgate : No OEP required
• Southgate - Covent Garden : No OEP required
• Mill Hill Broadway - East Croydon on FCC : OEP required
• Marylebone - Harrow-on-the-Hill on Chiltern : No OEP required
• Baker Street - Harrow-on-the-Hill : No OEP required
• Wembley Stadium - West Ruislip : OEP required

At least that's my understanding...

Cheers,

Barry

 

[bb21]

So is it correct to say that basically there are four categories of journeys:

Station inside validity to station outside validity (if any stretch is on NR outside validity): OEP required
Station inside validity to station outside validity (if no stretch is on NR outside validity): OEP not required
Station inside validity to station inside validity: no OEP requried (obviously)
Station outside validity to anywhere: no OEP required (as entry charge is already deducted?)

'Validity' refers to travelcard validity.

 

[MikeWh]

So is it correct to say that basically there are four categories of journeys:

Station inside validity to station outside validity (if any stretch is on NR outside validity): OEP required
Station inside validity to station outside validity (if no stretch is on NR outside validity): OEP not required
Station inside validity to station inside validity: no OEP requried (obviously)
Station outside validity to anywhere: no OEP required (as entry charge is already deducted?)

'Validity' refers to travelcard validity.

Yes, that's it - almost. You can start and end inside but travel outside en route and need one. There's a nice flowchart on the OEP page on my site which describes it in simple steps.

Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing from anyone else if other TOC's gatelines are set to reject cards without an OEP set where one should have been. Or are SET the only bad guys?

 

[RJ]

Well each Oyster Card, by law, has to advertise that its use is subject to the Tfl Conditions of Carriage and details where copies of this are available. It's up to the user whether they wish to read them or not, having agreed to be bound by the terms by using the card. Conditions 3.19 and 3.20 are particularly relevant in this scenario. As a holder of an Annual Travelcard on Oyster, I would not automatically assume that my Zone 1 - 2 is valid to make a journey from Zone 2 - 6. Furthermore I've never seen any TOC (besides TfL) openly advertise that you're allowed to travel beyond the validity of your Travelcard without penalty.

That said, it is a complex system. I have not Penalty Fared anyone for not holding an OEP yet, I take time to explain how the system works and give the passenger a Oyster Card on National Rail leaflet so that they know for next time.

 

[LexyBoy]

As a holder of an Annual Travelcard on Oyster, I would not automatically assume that my Zone 1 - 2 is valid to make a journey from Zone 2 - 6.

Why not? Most people would assume that they would be charged the correct fare when they touch out, since the system knows what journey they have made. Indeed, TfL are always at pains to point out that the system will work out the correct fare even when several are possible.

As barrykas said, it's a kludge and one which goes against how everyone's learnt to use Oyster. I realise that from the perspective of someone working for the railway it's still a train ticket (albeit on a different medium), but remember that the average punter has grown well accustomed to how Oyster works and now it's extended to National Rail assumes that it works in the same way.

I appreciate why it's been done - most Tube stations are gated whereas most NR stations are not, so buying a Z1-2 TC and travelling in by train from Z6 would be easily done - but think the solution destroys the simplicity and convenience of Oyster. Instead, there could be spot checks on board (for anyone who hasn't touched in or have a TC valid in the relevant zone) and at stations after the Oyster readers and prosecuting or PF-ing those who haven't touched out after getting on with a TC (if they're on PAYG they would pay the maximum fare anyway, so that's their loss).

(Fortunately, I don't have to worry as I either have a paper Z1-6 TC or use PAYG)

 

[jon0844]

OEPs confuse the hell out of me, so good luck to the normal person that thinks you just scan in and out (which was the whole idea of Oyster) - and pay extra from your prepay credit if you go beyond the zones of your Travelcard.

 

[MikeWh]

Well each Oyster Card, by law, has to advertise that its use is subject to the Tfl Conditions of Carriage and details where copies of this are available. It's up to the user whether they wish to read them or not, having agreed to be bound by the terms by using the card. Conditions 3.19 and 3.20 are particularly relevant in this scenario.

Well there is one of the problems in a nutshell. When I obtained my Oyster Card back in 2008 there was absolutely no mention of OEPs anywhere. In fact I don't think the term had even been invented then. I haven't been sent anything in the post telling me about the new terms, or received an email either, despite my card being registered. My local station has large posters extolling the virtues of hopping on and off metro trains with PAYG and it tells me I can top up at the ticket machine. There's no mention of OEPs anywhere. In fact, if I hadn't read about them in RAIL (and then investigated further on the TfL site) I'd be as aware as most of the other commuters round here seem to be.

As a holder of an Annual Travelcard on Oyster, I would not automatically assume that my Zone 1 - 2 is valid to make a journey from Zone 2 - 6. Furthermore I've never seen any TOC (besides TfL) openly advertise that you're allowed to travel beyond the validity of your Travelcard without penalty.

Besides TfL is the crucial phrase there. If you had a travelcard stored on an Oyster Card before 2010 and used it on the tube outside your zones you'd know that it worked out what you needed to pay automatically. Logic says that it's going to carry on doing that. Going back to the guy in my OP, he had successfully done it without problems on several occasions. Why would he know that SET had suddenly changed the gatelines without any advertising campaign whatsoever. The intransigent RPI said that everyone got a leaflet with their new Oyster Card which fully explained OEPs. He completely dismissed the problem that if you'd had your card since before 2010 that wouldn't be the case. So, whilst it's true to say that no TOCs are openly advertising the fact that you can make out of zones journeys without penalty, the fact that TfL do say that and the others don't openly say you can't is a problem.

That said, it is a complex system. I have not Penalty Fared anyone for not holding an OEP yet, I take time to explain how the system works and give the passenger a Oyster Card on National Rail leaflet so that they know for next time.

Which is the right thing to do until there has been much more advertising about the issue.

 

[RJ]

OEPs confuse the hell out of me, so good luck to the normal person that thinks you just scan in and out (which was the whole idea of Oyster) - and pay extra from your prepay credit if you go beyond the zones of your Travelcard.

So you believe that the system is set up to punish honest customers, rather than deter passengers with no intention of paying for the extension?

Why not? Most people would assume that they would be charged the correct fare when they touch out, since the system knows what journey they have made. Indeed, TfL are always at pains to point out that the system will work out the correct fare even when several are possible.

Because I've paid my £1k odd for travel within Zones 1 and 2. The least I would do is ask somebody in the know or read publicity before making assumptions. I happened to find out about OEPs when I was topping up at a TVM and noticed it as an option some time in January last year. When I top up someone's Oyster Card and I notice that they have a Travelcard loaded but have told me they're going somewhere beyond, i.e 1 - 3 TkT but going to East Croydon, I take that opportunity to tell them about OEPs.

People who believe that they don't need to touch in and out within their own zones may think that extends to not needing to touch in or out when travelling outside of their zones.

 

[MikeWh]

The least I would do is ask somebody in the know or read publicity before making assumptions.

But surely you'd only do that once. And if that once was before last year you'd be in the dark.

 

[Mojo]

In the period 25 July - 28 August 2010 only 4% (yes, four percent) of journeys had OEPs set where they should have been.

 

[LexyBoy]

Another thing - how exactly does one set an OEP when travelling from a station with no Oyster facilities? This would be most of SWT-land - I was in Kingston the other day where there was a poster explaining (confusedly) when an OEP was needed, but no ability to set one.

(Also made me think - somewhat off-topic - whether it is acceptable that the ticket office will not sell the cheapest ticket to destinations within London).

edit: Obviously the answer is to go to the nearest Oyster ticket shop, but it's asking a bit much!

 

[W-on-Sea]

OEP is a kludge that the TOCs insisted on as part of the agreement for the full rollout of Oyster within the zones back in January 2010. OEPs are NOT needed for LU/DLR/Overground journeys, or for journeys starting outside the validity of the Travelcard.

So, for example, if you have a Zones 2-4 Travelcard loaded:

• Finsbury Park - Kings Cross on First Capital Connect : OEP required
• Finsbury Park - King's Cross St. Pancras on LU : No OEP required
• Kings Cross - Finsbury Park on either FCC or LU : No OEP required
• Hadley Wood - Kings Cross/Moorgate : No OEP required
• Southgate - Covent Garden : No OEP required
• Mill Hill Broadway - East Croydon on FCC : OEP required
• Marylebone - Harrow-on-the-Hill on Chiltern : No OEP required
• Baker Street - Harrow-on-the-Hill : No OEP required
• Wembley Stadium - West Ruislip : OEP required

At least that's my understanding...

Cheers,

Barry

It's not quite that simple...

It really is a ridiculous system. Not least as (I think) the division is not exactly between TfL and NR, but between (on the one hand) TfL routes and those NR routes that either have interavailable fares, and/or which were included in the Oyster PAYG system before OEPs were introduced and (on the other) NR routes that weren't PAYGable (to make up a word) before last year. Oh and there is an exception there too. Victoria-Balham falls into the latter category, even though it had PAYG a bit earlier.

So - on that basis, regardless of what travelcard you have on your Oyster, you don't need an OEP to travel between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park, full stop, in either direction. (Tickets interavailable between tube and NR). Similarly Fenchurch St/Liverpool St - Upminster, Liv St- Stratford, Tottenham Hale, Seven Sisters or Walthamstow Central, Marylebone-Amersham, Paddington - Ealing Bdy/Greenford, Kentish Town (or was it West Hampstead?) - London Bridge/Elephant & Castle and so on.

Along with the differential fares now applied by TfL for peak-hour travel that goes against the main flow, it feels as though working out how to use Oyster (or to budget how much it will cost) is like playing a big game of Mornington Crescent, the difference being that there are, apparently rules, but no-one seems to know what they are, and in any case they do not lend themselves to a simple explanation. Basically, what I think needs to be done is to transfer the control of all the local/commuter services within the Zones to TfL/the Mayor, and have one, properly unified system of fares, like that on the tube, across them all. The OEPs are just the most flagrant part of the current lunacy. (/rant)

I don't think they could make the system less user-friendly if they tried.

 

[MikeWh]

It's not quite that simple...

It really is a ridiculous system. Not least as (I think) the division is not exactly between TfL and NR, but between (on the one hand) TfL routes and those NR routes that either have interavailable fares, and/or which were included in the Oyster PAYG system before OEPs were introduced and (on the other) NR routes that weren't PAYGable (to make up a word) before last year. Oh and there is an exception there too. Victoria-Balham falls into the latter category, even though it had PAYG a bit earlier.

I originally thought that the division was based around whether the route accepted PAYG before Nov 2009 (to get round Balham) or not, but a site visitor put me right on that one. I guess the old routes might not require OEPs but the rules say that they do to try and make it easier to understand*. The same might be true of the inter-available fares but again the rules on the TfL site make no mention of those.

I don't think they could make the system less user-friendly if they tried.

Agreed.

* Another example of that is saying that you must touch in on a tram to Wimbledon even if you have a travelcard stored on your Oyster that lets you use trams (any combination of zones 3-6). The reality is that if you have zone 3 you will be ok, but that makes it too complicated.

 

[jon0844]

So you believe that the system is set up to punish honest customers, rather than deter passengers with no intention of paying for the extension?

I haven't got a clue. I got an Oyster card when they first came out, and combine a Z1-3 with a Z4-6 paper ticket. As such, I switch to paper tickets when I go home, so I've never swiped my Oyster or got an 'OEP'. As said above, I never got any paperwork with my ticket to explain what it is, and have had no contact since to remind me of new rules or changes to the T&Cs.

Certainly if I was 'caught', I'd refuse the PF and demand it be taken to court. I'd then explain that 'little' fact and expect to win in a matter of seconds.

I presume you need this extra thing because many stations are unstaffed and the readers often don't work (one thing that nets the industry loads of money in people being charged the maximum fare) but otherwise I don't see exactly what it's for. You have a prepay card, you touch in and touch out. Simple.

Why, then, do you need to add something to your card to travel? And do you have to do this once or every time you travel? If every time, how do you do it and how long does it take?

So many questions, but I haven't got a clue. I am quite certain that most people with an Oyster don't know either.

 

[MikeWh]

And do you have to do this once or every time you travel? If every time, how do you do it and how long does it take?

Take a look at the OEP page on my site, but basically the answers are:

1. every time you travel from within your zones to or via somewhere outside your zones on NR (except LO).
2. Select the Oyster option, touch your card, select the add OEP button, touch your card again, that's it!
3. About 30 seconds once in front of a TVM.

So many questions, but I haven't got a clue. I am quite certain that most people with an Oyster don't know either.

In the period 25 July - 28 August 2010 only 4% (yes, four percent) of journeys had OEPs set where they should have been.

I nearly missed that statistic. I think that proves that most people with an Oyster don't know. Any idea where the statistic came from Mojo?

 

[b0b]

Take a look at the OEP page on my site, but basically the answers are:

1. every time you travel from within your zones to or via somewhere outside your zones on NR (except LO).
2. Select the Oyster option, touch your card, select the add OEP button, touch your card again, that's it!
3. About 30 seconds once in front of a TVM.

isn't there an issue if an OEP isn't consumed for some reason? ie. does LU "eat" the OEP if set, even though LU doesn't require the OEP?

I ask this because you can't keep an OEP on your card "just in case", right?

 

[jon0844]

Take a look at the OEP page on my site, but basically the answers are:

1. every time you travel from within your zones to or via somewhere outside your zones on NR (except LO).
2. Select the Oyster option, touch your card, select the add OEP button, touch your card again, that's it!
3. About 30 seconds once in front of a TVM.

Every time? Jesus! If I did that at my station here, I'd be having to leave work earlier to get my train - as there are often queues for the TVMs.

That's a ridiculous system.

Can you do anything clever like set it up using a mobile/shortcode/website to have it added when you touch in?

 

[MikeWh]

isn't there an issue if an OEP isn't consumed for some reason? ie. does LU "eat" the OEP if set, even though LU doesn't require the OEP?

I ask this because you can't keep an OEP on your card "just in case", right?

The OEP remains until you touch out (or in) at a station outside your zones or it is otherwise cleared. You can keep one just in case but if you have one set you must always touch in and out within your zones or you will get reduced maximum charges applied.

Every time? Jesus! If I did that at my station here, I'd be having to leave work earlier to get my train - as there are often queues for the TVMs.

That's a ridiculous system.

Can you do anything clever like set it up using a mobile/shortcode/website to have it added when you touch in?

Now that would be a good idea.

Fortunately for you you have the rest of the travelcard zones on a paper ticket so it doesn't apply.

 

[RJ]

I presume you need this extra thing because many stations are unstaffed and the readers often don't work (one thing that nets the industry loads of money in people being charged the maximum fare)

You've been reading too many newspapers :roll:. Strangely enough in these biased articles, they don't inform people that they can claim their credit back. I don't understand why the Entry/Exit charge is so frowned upon. It's up to the user to validate the card at both ends of the journey in order for it to calculate the correct amount to deduct. How is it supposed to caluclate the correct amount if you don't tell it what journey you've done? Someone only touching out at the gateline in Amersham might have come from Chalfont. They could also have come from Grays. If it charged anything less than the maximum fare then it'd undermine the whole charging system and be highly unfair to those who pay the correct amount. Quite possibly a lesson learnt from the original incarcination of Penalty Fares where if caught without a ticket, it was sometimes much cheaper to pay the PF than buy the correct ticket.

 

[Mojo]

I nearly missed that statistic. I think that proves that most people with an Oyster don't know. Any idea where the statistic came from Mojo?

You have a PM as to my source.

Someone sent off a FoI request earlier in the month so a reply should be coming soon with more up-to-date figures. Keep an eye on:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_oyster_extension_permit_2

 

[jon0844]

You've been reading too many newspapers :roll:.

Just the one, which said how much money was made from levying the max fares. I am not going to judge whether this is down to validators being out of service, or people trying it on - but one thing is known; many people are being hit. Far too many.

I had a lot of fun getting my £200+ refund when they messed up my season ticket change. I'd hate to be calling them regularly to get a refund, and if it's deemed acceptable or normal to get refunds regularly as the system is broken, there's LOADS of scope for fraud from people trying it on.

I am a supporter of smartcards and innovative ticketing options (and I know they'll all come one day) but the current system is a bit of a mess and needs fixing. Having to go to a TVM before you travel is just silly, on the basis that some people may get away without paying beyond their covered zones because so many NR stations are not gated or staffed at certain times of the day.

I'd prefer significant fines on those that don't scan, or fit the trains with readers and have people scan as they leave. If you fail to do so and are caught at the station exit, it's another hefty penalty or court appearance. Punish those who aim to fare evade, not everyone.

 

[MikeWh]

Someone sent off a FoI request earlier in the month so a reply should be coming soon with more up-to-date figures. Keep an eye on:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/oyster_oyster_extension_permit_2

... and that person came straight onto my site with the answers. It's a real mess. There are about 100K journeys a month with the OEP set and about 180K journeys a month where it wasn't set. One can only wonder how many journeys are being made without both an OEP and a touch out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And another quick update. Another site visitor told me that he'd been let out at Charing Cross last weekend without an OEP and the system just calculated the extra fare for zone 1. Either SET have reversed the decision, or it's only being done at some places and/or at some times. I also wonder whether they've abandoned the idea of PFing people on the basis that stopping someone trying to touch out (and thus pay) with enough credit on their card can hardly be called intent to evade paying the fare.