Hope Valley upgrade: what should be done?

[Mugby]

Moderator note: Split from

Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

All has gone very quiet since the TWAO was confirmed; https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/network-rail-hope-valley-capacity-order It came into force on the 18th April; http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/446/made After a public announcement by Network Rail that work should start in...

www.railforums.co.uk

I was sort of hoping that Dore Station Junction would be re-positioned further North under the scheme, perhaps in the area of Abbey Lane.

The advantage would be that the turnouts would be on straight track rather than on the curve which I believe would be preferable to MR because vertical S&C is easier to maintain and allows higher speeds.
However, noting that the bridge over the River Sheaf was narrowed when the old Manchester lines were taken out, I imagine the cost of replacing the bridge with a wider structure was the deciding factor which precluded that.

 

[Killingworth]

I was sort of hoping that Dore Station Junction would be re-positioned further North under the scheme, perhaps in the area of Abbey Lane.

The advantage would be that the turnouts would be on straight track rather than on the curve which I believe would be preferable to MR because vertical S&C is easier to maintain and allows higher speeds.
However, noting that the bridge over the River Sheaf was narrowed when the old Manchester lines were taken out, I imagine the cost of replacing the bridge with a wider structure was the deciding factor which precluded that.

You'd be restoring Beauchief station for which there's no longer any space. There never was a large population nearby and it's still not great.

It will be interesting to see what happens next down the Sheaf Valley for electrification, supposedly by 2030. HS2 called for a 3rd track and many think all 4 should be restored. But that's a subject for another thread.

 

[Tayway]

Could the third train in each hour operate as a sort of semi-fast from Manchester to Sheffield, maybe calling at Stockport, Hazel Grove, Chinley, Dore and Sheffield, in order improve connections from the Hope Valley to the Buxton line and other stations south of Manchester and give a much-needed uplift in frequency at some of the busier stations?

 

[g22]

Deleted.

 

[Greybeard33]

Could the third train in each hour operate as a sort of semi-fast from Manchester to Sheffield, maybe calling at Stockport, Hazel Grove, Chinley, Dore and Sheffield, in order improve connections from the Hope Valley to the Buxton line and other stations south of Manchester and give a much-needed uplift in frequency at some of the busier stations?

Pre-Covid Northern had 3tph between Piccadilly and Hazel Grove, 2tph Piccadilly to Buxton and 1tph Blackpool to Hazel Grove. The draft December 2022 timetables have only 2tph in the standard hour, 1tph Piccadilly to Buxton and 1tph Piccadilly to Hazel Grove.

Therefore there might be spare paths available between Piccadilly and Hazel Grove. Alternatively the Hazel Grove shuttle might possibly be extended to Sheffield, although this is planned to go to Buxton in the morning and evening peaks. But I do not know if any of these paths could be aligned with paths through the Hope Valley.

 

[Killingworth]

Pre-Covid Northern had 3tph between Piccadilly and Hazel Grove, 2tph Piccadilly to Buxton and 1tph Blackpool to Hazel Grove. The draft December 2022 timetables have only 2tph in the standard hour, 1tph Piccadilly to Buxton and 1tph Piccadilly to Hazel Grove.

Therefore there might be spare paths available between Piccadilly and Hazel Grove. Alternatively the Hazel Grove shuttle might possibly be extended to Sheffield, although this is planned to go to Buxton in the morning and evening peaks. But I do not know if any of these paths could be aligned with paths through the Hope Valley.

The fundamental problem remains that Manchester and Sheffield station platforms and their respective approaches are too congested to easily add more trains. At the Sheffield end a 2 car train fits in 2c. If a longer train is introduced it's a juggling act until the tracks and platforms are reconfigured for electrification.

To introduce a 3rd fast with a 20 minute Sheffield - Manchester interval would require major changes across the country.

To extend the New Mills stopper would continue the 2 tph from Piccadilly and allow flexibility for stops at selected stations, particularly Chinley and Dore, but also Hope and others to allow it to work alongside freight paths. That solution is the simplest and probably most cost effective for the near future.

 

[Jozhua]

Going to get killed for this, but a direct service to Nottingham bypassing Sheffield would be a game changer for the East Mids.

 

[Mugby]

Going to get killed for this, but a direct service to Nottingham bypassing Sheffield would be a game changer for the East Mids.

Not such a bad idea. Run the Nottingham service direct via Dore South Curve but maintain 2 tph (fast) from Sheffield with 6-car sets run by one operator.

Nottingham - Sheffield would still be covered by Northern, albeit less frequent, and stations up the Erewash would still be served as now.

In fact, with good connections at Chesterfield, it would be a very attractive proposition for Derby to Manchester passengers.

 

[adrock1976]

Going to get killed for this, but a direct service to Nottingham bypassing Sheffield would be a game changer for the East Mids.

Not such a bad idea. Run the Nottingham service direct via Dore South Curve but maintain 2 tph (fast) from Sheffield with 6-car sets run by one operator.

Nottingham - Sheffield would still be covered by Northern, albeit less frequent, and stations up the Erewash would still be served as now.

In fact, with good connections at Chesterfield, it would be a very attractive proposition for Derby to Manchester passengers.

I have previously suggested this in one of the splinter threads/East Midlands Liverpool - Norwich split thread.

I had suggested Manchester Pic trainshed - Nottingham via Dore South curve calling Stockport, Hazel Grove, Chinley, one of the stations before Totley Tunnel, Chesterfield, then either 1) Alfreton, Beeston, and Nottingham*, or 2) Belper, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, and Nottingham

*I did previously mention calling at Toton Interchange for HS2, but that was before it was switched to East Mids Parkway.

Liverpool - Sheffield - Doncaster every 30 minutes (1tph to/from Cleethorpes via Scunthorpe and 1tph to/from Hull via Goole, and the Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley that runs in the opposite half hour to the Leeds - Nottingham to be extended to Nottingham so as to maintain the 2tph Sheffield - Nottingham frequency (when the Liverpool - Norwich is eventually split into two separate routes).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going to get killed for this, but a direct service to Nottingham bypassing Sheffield would be a game changer for the East Mids.

Would it? Is the demand to Manchester from the EM that high?

 

[Sonik]

Would it? Is the demand to Manchester from the EM that high?

I think maybe it could be, if the journey was easier.

Both Nottingham and Manchester have a decent sized Tech/IT industry base.

 

[Nottingham59]

Would it? Is the demand to Manchester from the EM that high?

Yes. At Sheffield, typically around half the passengers will get off a Liverpool-Nottingham service. So the other half would save 17 minutes with a routing via the Dore South curve. It's not like at Nottingham, where almost everybody changes, even on the through services.

The key missed opportunity was when they/someone (TfN??) decided not to enable a fourth Fast train per hour on the Hope Valley line, because "two of the fast trains would have to be flighted together". But that's exactly what you would want to do with the Dore South curve: running the Nottingham direct service just before or just after the TPE to Sheffield would have made a lot of sense. Especially if the timings were chosen to allow slick interchanges north and south at Chesterfield.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both Nottingham and Manchester have a decent sized Tech/IT industry base.

IT does practically everything remotely these days, so if it's about IT, then you'd not fill a 153 a couple of times a day.

I'm not convinced.

 

[Jozhua]

Would it? Is the demand to Manchester from the EM that high?

You'd have to check the journey stats. But an extra 20 minutes goes a way to making the train much less competitive Vs driving.

Sheffield station throat doesn't really have much more capacity for any more services that need to turn around at it...

Perhaps a smattering of services throughout the day to trial it first would be good.

 

[furnessvale]

Going to get killed for this, but a direct service to Nottingham bypassing Sheffield would be a game changer for the East Mids.

Like reopening Chinley-Matlock which would also open up the Peak District to local trains AND remove much slow freight from the Hope Valley and Greater Manchester.

 

[Jozhua]

Like reopening Chinley-Matlock which would also open up the Peak District to local trains AND remove much slow freight from the Hope Valley and Greater Manchester.

I've taken heat for this same take as well!

 

[Chester1]

The fundamental problem remains that Manchester and Sheffield station platforms and their respective approaches are too congested to easily add more trains. At the Sheffield end a 2 car train fits in 2c. If a longer train is introduced it's a juggling act until the tracks and platforms are reconfigured for electrification.

To introduce a 3rd fast with a 20 minute Sheffield - Manchester interval would require major changes across the country.

To extend the New Mills stopper would continue the 2 tph from Piccadilly and allow flexibility for stops at selected stations, particularly Chinley and Dore, but also Hope and others to allow it to work alongside freight paths. That solution is the simplest and probably most cost effective for the near future.

Extending the New Mills service would have the benefit of enabling TPE and EMR to only call at Stockport. That would provide improve peak time capacity and journey times between the two cities. Residents of Chinley and Dore would struggle to complain when they would have a half hourly service to Manchester and Sheffield.

 

[cle]

Run the longest trains possible. Run extra inners to New Mills etc.

At least by harmonizing Liverpool - Sheffield - Nott/Clee, you're getting an even 30 min interval with Stockport only. The odd peak extra shuttle, semi-fast. Even to Stockport would be useful for many connections and any local journeys - although admittedly on the wrong side of the station.

 

[Killingworth]

Going to get killed for this, but a direct service to Nottingham bypassing Sheffield would be a game changer for the East Mids.

Two problems with that, leaving aside potential passenger numbers.

1. Adding an extra hourly train out of Piccadilly by either route currently appears to be difficult whether to Sheffield or the East Midlands direct.

2. The extended Dore chord/loop is designed for freight movements. That means long trains will stand there awaiting paths to go onto either the Hope Valley or Midland mainline. If all works to plan they won't dwell there for long. However freight services frequently get held when passenger services get priority. They would not make for reliable pathing of such a new hourly passenger service.

It will be interesting to see how much of the Manchester reorganisation's indicative timetable for the Hope Valley line is delivered in December, and how robust it turns out to be in practice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically I think the vast majority of passengers' needs would be met by simply running longer trains. TPE are already managing this with double sets at least most of the time, but the Northern stopper should be 6.195 on all weekends and school holidays (all the time if easier), and the EMR needs to be 6.158 (or whatever they are theoretically going to use this week). That will provide enough capacity for the foreseeable.

 

[Killingworth]

Realistically I think the vast majority of passengers' needs would be met by simply running longer trains. TPE are already managing this with double sets at least most of the time, but the Northern stopper should be 6.195 on all weekends and school holidays (all the time if easier), and the EMR needs to be 6.158 (or whatever they are theoretically going to use this week). That will provide enough capacity for the foreseeable.

That would be generous for current passenger levels. It often doesn't seem so because it's rare for all 3 to operate full length trains every hour. Consequently longer trains appear to be needed to pick up the numbers left stranded by cancelled, seriously delayed and short formed services of the others.

If TPE and EMr ran hourly 6 coach trains on Saturdays Northern could manage with 4. Platform space at Sheffield is an issue if all three try to run 6 cars every hour. Northern have difficulty getting in 3 at some times in the day.

 

[Manutd1999]

2. The extended Dore chord/loop is designed for freight movements. That means long trains will stand there awaiting paths to go onto either the Hope Valley or Midland mainline. If all works to plan they won't dwell there for long. However freight services frequently get held when passenger services get priority. They would not make for reliable pathing of such a new hourly passenger service.

I think this is the key restriction. Otherwise a direct Piccadilly - Nottingham semi-fast would make a lot of sense.

 

[Killingworth]

I think this is the key restriction. Otherwise a direct Piccadilly - Nottingham semi-fast would make a lot of sense.

Nostalgia kicks in, of the days when Dore was a junction station offering interchange from Midland main line trains from Derby onto the Hope Valley line trains. That's not coming back either.

 

[Philip]

How about extending this proposed 3rd fast Hope Valley service beyond Sheffield; to run onto the Woodhouse line and either terminate at Lincoln, or join the 'old road' at Beighton Junction and continue to Chesterfield and onto either Nottingham or Derby? There must capacity on the Woodhouse line as the Northern franchise plan originally had two trains per hour along here, but currently it is only an hourly service.

It wouldn't be as heavy on platform capacity at Sheffield compared with terminating there and the existing EMR and TPE services could be left untouched.

 

[Killingworth]

How about extending this proposed 3rd fast Hope Valley service beyond Sheffield; to run onto the Woodhouse line and either terminate at Lincoln, or join the 'old road' at Beighton Junction and continue to Chesterfield and onto either Nottingham or Derby? There must capacity on the Woodhouse line as the Northern franchise plan originally had two trains per hour along here, but currently it is only an hourly service.

It wouldn't be as heavy on platform capacity at Sheffield compared with terminating there and the existing EMR and TPE services could be left untouched.

You'd still have the issue of congested paths out of Manchester.

Extending any services adds operational risks. The proposal to reopen stations via Barrow Hill along the old road envisages a train from Sheffield to Chesterfield. That would take the hourly path and stopping all stations wouldn't fit with a faster East Midlands service. But that's still a long way from proceeding and a topic for another thread.

 

[cle]

You'd still have the issue of congested paths out of Manchester.

Extending any services adds operational risks. The proposal to reopen stations via Barrow Hill along the old road envisages a train from Sheffield to Chesterfield. That would take the hourly path and stopping all stations wouldn't fit with a faster East Midlands service. But that's still a long way from proceeding and a topic for another thread.

Could it not run up to Doncaster instead, perhaps? And take on/ad to a local service - or the Adwick?

 

[Jozhua]

Nostalgia kicks in, of the days when Dore was a junction station offering interchange from Midland main line trains from Derby onto the Hope Valley line trains. That's not coming back either.

That would be a good idea, but would involve stopping trains on the already very congested section of track...

The alternative is routing passing trains on the east and have the stopping services on the west next to Dore & Totley.

Then have local services to/from Nottingham and services to/from Manchester run on the west side and express EMR/XC run on the East into Sheffield Midland.

This way seems to be a win win for everyone in terms of total journey times/frequency.

 

[Killingworth]

Could it not run up to Doncaster instead, perhaps? And take on/ad to a local service - or the Adwick?

10 years or so ago a stopper ran through from Adwick to Piccadilly. It was notorious for being late.

Congestion at Doncaster on the ECML, conflicts at Meadowhall or Nunnery and then at Sheffield.

But any extra train out of Piccadilly may have to be at the expense of another service. Which other service would be given up?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2022 ==

That would be a good idea, but would involve stopping trains on the already very congested section of track...

The alternative is routing passing trains on the east and have the stopping services on the west next to Dore & Totley.

Then have local services to/from Nottingham and services to/from Manchester run on the west side and express EMR/XC run on the East into Sheffield Midland.

This way seems to be a win win for everyone in terms of total journey times/frequency.

Thr Sheffield MPs Sheaf Valley proposal to reopen Heeley, Millhouses and Beauchief stations with all 4 platforms at Dore was an early faller in the railway restoration hurdles.

A 2015 feasibility study for mainline platforms at Dore & Totley ran into the sand. 3 options, all feasible but all with drawbacks to make them all commercially unviable.