Cuts to bus services in 011

[shinkansen1966]

Sophie Allen's bus blog on the Campaign for Better Transport makes grim reading
http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/campaigns/public_transport/buses/blog

Over the coming year, expect plenty of council supported bus services to be scrapped. It's a miserable truth that government spending cuts will hit the hardest.

Sure there will be income tax rises for the wealthy.

But which will be tougher ?
someone who cannot drive loosing their bus service or...
someone on £2,000 per week being asked to pay an extra £20pw in income tax

 

[trentside]

The truth is, since widespread car ownership, the rural bus market has never been sustainable. The funding provided by the previous government under Kickstart has been used by many Local Authorities to create more extensive subsidised networks. Many of these have become more sustainable in their own right, the Lincolnshire InterConnect scheme being an excellent example. Despite this, many more rural routes run through LA subsidy could never be sustainable. This is sad, but true.

The other factor is that the operators have little choice but to offer higher tenders, as fuel costs rising (coupled with the forthcoming BSOG reduction) mean that it is even harder for operators to make money.

 

[shinkansen1966]

The truth is, since widespread car ownership, the rural bus market has never been sustainable.

Indeed.

Where does this leave the 11% of rural households without a car ?

 

[anthony263]

We have had cuts on the Gower explorer network. Thankfully Veolia transport cymru have taken a lot of the evening services on commercially and do seem to be doing a good trade.

 

[trentside]

Where does this leave the 11% of rural households without a car ?

Sadly, probably in the back of a taxi. I agree this isn't a solution.

 

[flymo]

Go North East are already planning contingencies for the cuts proposed by Durham County Council but there is no doubt that some areas will lose out considerably.

Details here

 

[WatcherZero]

Looks like we will be avoiding service cuts for the most part in Greater Manchester (but they are axing the child and over 60's off peak concessionary 80p flat fare on tram/train/bus and replacing it with half fare). Lots of routes seem to be going in Lancashire.

 

[142094]

The truth is, since widespread car ownership, the rural bus market has never been sustainable.

Not just rural, look at many of the urban areas, quite a few of their bus routes will also be subsidised in some way.

This is why deregulation was a bad idea - the private sector would never take on bus routes that do not make money and run them at a loss, which is why the taxpayer has to subsidise the bus companies. I'd much rather have the profitable routes paying for the unprofitable routes and all the services run in the public sector, and run as a service and not to make money for shareholders.

 

[Greenback]

Not just rural, look at many of the urban areas, quite a few of their bus routes will also be subsidised in some way.

This is why deregulation was a bad idea - the private sector would never take on bus routes that do not make money and run them at a loss, which is why the taxpayer has to subsidise the bus companies. I'd much rather have the profitable routes paying for the unprofitable routes and all the services run in the public sector, and run as a service and not to make money for shareholders.

You are correct. Deregulation was a complete disaster. Competition has been confined to a limited numbe rof places and routes, and where it has existed at all has not lasted long.

At the same time as services have contracted, so have local shops, post offices and banks closed down, other public services have become more centralised and people without a car have become ever more isolated. We really need to change the way we look at things!

 

[142094]

Hardly any areas I know that have competition on most of their routes. Take Newcastle, Stagecoach have the monopoly on most routes, with Go Ahead having some services to the Coast via Wallsend. Arriva have some that go into Northumberland that compete in Gosforth. Apart from that it is a total monopoly.

Looking at York, First runs most buses but the independent York Pullman (excellent service I might add), have some of the services that First don'r run. Now the University has York Pullman as their preferred bus provider, and the fares for students are £2 return to the station from campus (previosuly First had the route to themselves and charged £2.50 return). As soon as this came to light, First then dropped their price to £2 return, even though they said they were going to reduce services.

Basically as soon as a competitor tries to get a foothold the big 4 companies bite back.

 

[MCR247]

Wellglade in the east midland bite back pretty hard too as premiere have found out...

 

[trentside]

Wellglade in the east midland bite back pretty hard too as premiere have found out...

The same strategy was used by Bluestar (Go-Ahead) in Eastleigh, when Velvet attempted to start running over some sections of route that Bluestar had previously abandoned. After Velvet withdrew their service, Bluestar did as well.

Emphasises the problem with the deregulated market really...

 

[starrymarkb]

The same strategy was used by Bluestar (Go-Ahead) in Eastleigh, when Velvet attempted to start running over some sections of route that Bluestar had previously abandoned. After Velvet withdrew their service, Bluestar did as well.

Emphasises the problem with the deregulated market really...

It's the same guy - Alex Hornby went from MD of Bluestar to MD of Wellglade

 

[shinkansen1966]

Deregulation was a complete disaster.

Agreed. I fail to see exactly what benefits deregulation has brought for the public.

Here in London, we have a regulated bus service with a unified system and a standard fare structure. It's easily understood and we take a stable and largely unchanged bus network for granted.

Transport for London have also invested in real time 'countdown' information at many bus stops making bus travel predictable, because you know how long you have to wait for the next bus. On board, you have next stop announcements meaning you don't miss your stop, either !

 

[Greenback]

Agreed. I fail to see exactly what benefits deregulation has brought for the public.

Here in London, we have a regulated bus service with a unified system and a standard fare structure. It's easily understood and we take a stable and largely unchanged bus network for granted.

Transport for London have also invested in real time 'countdown' information at many bus stops making bus travel predictable, because you know how long you have to wait for the next bus. On board, you have next stop announcements meaning you don't miss your stop, either !

I am very envious of the excellent bus network that Londoners enjoy. In these parts, deregulation has provided with an extremely small network of commercial services and a relatively larger number of subsidised routes paid for by the council.

Timetables, such as they are, are of the paper variety only, although Swansea Council did install electronic boards at a few stops a few years back. They worked for about 6 weeks and then gave up.

 

[WatcherZero]

Stoke had a pretty good Pid network at bus stops when I was living in them parts turn of the millenium

 

[anthony263]

I am very envious of the excellent bus network that Londoners enjoy. In these parts, deregulation has provided with an extremely small network of commercial services and a relatively larger number of subsidised routes paid for by the council.

Timetables, such as they are, are of the paper variety only, although Swansea Council did install electronic boards at a few stops a few years back. They worked for about 6 weeks and then gave up.

They were suppsoed to put up electronice boards at the FTR stops. so far none have

 

[MCR247]

The same strategy was used by Bluestar (Go-Ahead) in Eastleigh, when Velvet attempted to start running over some sections of route that Bluestar had previously abandoned. After Velvet withdrew their service, Bluestar did as well.

Emphasises the problem with the deregulated market really...

Premiere chose the wrong competitor! Unlike Yourbus who are doing really well in the peaks on the Y36

 

[Greenback]

They were suppsoed to put up electronice boards at the FTR stops. so far none have

Actually, I have seen an electronic board outside High St station! However, it's not real time and simply displays the time of the next bus due, no matter whether there are early or late running buses!

It covers all of the buses, not just the FTR's, but as above it's pretty useless in terms of the next bus, but it does show news and weather as well, which I found far more useful!

 

[shinkansen1966]

In these parts, deregulation has provided with an extremely small network of commercial services and a relatively larger number of subsidised routes paid for by the council.

Outside London, it'd be interesting to know how many passenger trips are made on bus services run with council funding. A casual glance at your average bus timetable shows virtually all evening and Sunday services.

 

[Tom B]

Private companies such as FirstBus cherry pick the routes they will operate, and usually put evenings and Sundays out to tender. However, they do this in a very crafty way - they select the journeys which they claim are unprofitable VERY carefully (and they do not have to show that they're not making any money to get subsidy) and go to the PTE/council to ask for funding. The PTE then put a tender out - but because the company has selected such strange combinations of journeys, it isn't viable for another company to put a tender in - so there ends up being only one bid and it wins. We have some routes which are on 3 or 4 tenders for parts of journeys or odd journeys in the early morning - no way would another operator want to pick them up.

Let's not even go into the commercial services. Buses frequently late - despite "frequency reductions to improve reliability" - with no explanation unless pressed, and then it's "traffic" or "the bus broke down, it's not our fault!". The condition of some of the wrecks they use is dreadful too - no heating on a winter morning, how do they expect car users to suddenly start using public transport?

FirstBus are one of the most vile organisations on this planet and need a kick up the backside.

 

[Greenback]

Outside London, it'd be interesting to know how many passenger trips are made on bus services run with council funding. A casual glance at your average bus timetable shows virtually all evening and Sunday services.

Bus services in the evenings, at least in these parts, are so sparse as to eb useless to anyone but the most hardy traveller!

For example, although my parents use the buses regularly in the daytime, they won't use one in the evenings because they run only at 1750, 1955, 2155 and 2355. This instils in them an understandable desire to be home before 1800 in order to avoid being stranded somewhere for two hours!

As a result, you won't see many more than half a dozen people on any of the council subsidised buses in the Winter. Fortunately, things are a little better in the Summer!

 

[jon0844]

I'm lucky that my bus route runs from around 0615 to 2315 SEVEN days a week. It's run with a small Optare minibus - so is hopefully able to turn a profit, in case the county council subsidy is cut or axed completely.

It has fairly good loadings, but has periods where it will be totally empty. But, I think that changing it to hourly, or having it skip parts of the day, would have the exact effect that people would have to seek an alternative to avoid long waits - and wouldn't even take the buses that did run, in favour of using a car.

 

[shinkansen1966]

FirstBus are one of the most vile organisations on this planet and need a kick up the backside.

And this is what particularly annoys me about local bus operations.

With a supermarket, if you don't like a particular chain, to some extent you can go elsewhere.

The travelling public have little say or control over who operates their bus services and the level of frequency. Now, of course, it was like that during the National Bus Company days. But now, services are run by companies who are accountable to their shareholders and not the travelling public.

And there's little we can do. Other than vote with our feet and travel by car. And what good does that do for everyone else on the road ?

 

[Greenback]

I'm lucky that my bus route runs from around 0615 to 2315 SEVEN days a week. It's run with a small Optare minibus - so is hopefully able to turn a profit, in case the county council subsidy is cut or axed completely.

It has fairly good loadings, but has periods where it will be totally empty. But, I think that changing it to hourly, or having it skip parts of the day, would have the exact effect that people would have to seek an alternative to avoid long waits - and wouldn't even take the buses that did run, in favour of using a car.

Quite. Councils can only afford to run the bare minimum of services to allow their residents the possibility of getting to the shops, hospital or city centre if they don't have access to a car, and they probably won;t be able to afford that for much longer! Such schedules don't really allow people with a car the level of service to allow them to make a choice to leave it at home.

And this is what particularly annoys me about local bus operations.

With a supermarket, if you don't like a particular chain, to some extent you can go elsewhere.

The travelling public have little say or control over who operates their bus services and the level of frequency. Now, of course, it was like that during the National Bus Company days. But now, services are run by companies who are accountable to their shareholders and not the travelling public.

And there's little we can do. Other than vote with our feet and travel by car. And what good does that do for everyone else on the road ?

Well, in my opinion, the last thing that is needed is competition! What we do need, is a properly planned and operated system where fares are set and cannot be changed by the operator, where loss making routes can be cross subsidised by more profitable ones, and where the revenue from rush hour buses can help support those that run during less busy times like Sundays and evenings.

 

[anthony263]

Quite. Councils can only afford to run the bare minimum of services to allow their residents the possibility of getting to the shops, hospital or city centre if they don't have access to a car, and they probably won;t be able to afford that for much longer! Such schedules don't really allow people with a car the level of service to allow them to make a choice to leave it at home.

I will be honest and say that i dont like first, here in south wales. Only recently has their service bus fleet become 100% low floor only just before christmas that they have had to re-instate some of the Mercedes-Benz 709D's and even a Dennis javelin coach back into service because of problems with the marshal darts we received from Slough. First hardly seem to purchase any new vehicles for south wales and even still operate some Volvo Olympians which have come from Bristol.

We do have a few routes that need double deckers , particulary the Swansea - Oystermouth direct route compare this to Stagecoach who have purchased a lot of new vehicles for the south wales operation.

Sadly as with Veolia/Transdev we had great hopes when they first came to south wales and were great for a few months but things have gone down hill. Although in swansea they have taken a few of the evening services on commercially or have extended some other routes to cover for withdrawn routes which have been axed by the local council.

 

[Greenback]

I'll be fair and say that I find some of the First buses in Swansea to be relatively new and very comfortable, while others are not. It seems to depend on the route!

The Oystermouth buses can be overcrowded on a nice day, they would be my choice for double deck buses too!

 

[causton]

I like how Centrebus have cancelled their 524 service from Harlow to Hertford.

Basically, they ran the exact same service as another (smaller) local operator, just their buses were timetabled 4 minutes earlier so they presumably hoped to pick up all the passengers and all the money.

Seems to have not worked out though...

http://vvcap.net/db/oIRdXlaQGjVsYM9scWFC.htp

For example: The journeys from SM Coaches left at 00 past the hour from Hertford... the journeys from Centrebus left at 56 past the hour. They run the exact same route.

On the way back from Harlow, the buses leave from the same bus stop, the Centrebus service at 30 past and the SM Coaches service at 32 past...

Thank god it's ending next month.

 

[anthony263]

sADLY THERE IS NEWS IN TODAYS WESTERN MAIL ABOUT VEOLIA POSSIBLY WITHDRAWING A LOT OF THEIR WELSH BUS SERVICES. sADLY IF THEY DO I CAN SEE MR CLAYTON JONES STARTING A MASS EXPANSION OF HIS ST DAVIDS TRAVEL BUSINESS

 

[tbtc]

Where does this leave the 11% of rural households without a car ?

Sadly, probably in the back of a taxi. I agree this isn't a solution.

Sadly, the cost (to the councils) of some tendered bus services are so high (per person who actually uses them) that a taxi would be cheaper.