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Promise to Pay is for passengers who only have cash, not as a general option if the TVM card reader has failed.
What is a Promise to Pay notice?
A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.
Promise to Pay is for passengers who only have cash, not as a general option if the TVM card reader has failed.
What is a Promise to Pay notice?
A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.
I read the post I quoted as suggesting that if there is no cash option, the operator has failed - if someone is wanting to pay with cash, the promise to pay option is provided for that.
No Promise to pay is for customers who cannot pay by card. If the reason you cannot pay by card is that the card is faulty of maxed out, P2P is a legitimate option
This is how the 'excess fares' window at Leeds works. You go to the window, if you're travelling from somewhere with a ticket machine or office open a penalty fare officer comes over.
Promise to Pay is for passengers who only have cash, not as a general option if the TVM card reader has failed.
What is a Promise to Pay notice?
A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.
So does the TVM automatically spit out a promise to pay notice or card transaction failed receipt
Or is it a completely separate transaction request, where a member of public is expected to start again with a machine that just failed.
I am sure if most people would give up on a machine that doesn’t appear to work rather than think they could look for an alternative item on a menu of an apparently defective machine.
Applying decades old laws to transactions that only existed when cardboard tickets and pre-decimalisation coinage existed, is not customer focused.
The format of the ticket and the means of purchasing one do not alter the requirement to purchase a ticket prior to travelling, where facilities exist. I don’t see how the age of the law is relevant to this.
If the woman leading the party can demonnstrate that she successfully used the card shortly before and shortly after the intended purchase of train tickets at Low Moor, then this would be a good indicator that the card was working generally, and that it was the TVM at fault. Did the woman leading the party pay for the meal with that card? And dis she buy tickets to retirn to Low Moor with this card? (I may have missed this bit, as to whether she did or did not.)
No Promise to pay is for customers who cannot pay by card. If the reason you cannot pay by card is that the card is faulty of maxed out, P2P is a legitimate option
So her card failed at low moor. She could have used an ATM at leeds to get cash. Indeed the revenue guys could have suggested that or did they just want their commision on the penalty.
No Promise to pay is for customers who cannot pay by card. If the reason you cannot pay by card is that the card is faulty of maxed out, P2P is a legitimate option
I've provided the quote and link. No mention of those who 'cannot' pay by card. The words are 'the customers who do not have the facility'.
If I have a card I have the facility, its not my issue if the tech fails or someone has smeared the TVM and payment card reader with bodily fluids and excrement (which I have encountered).
You need to look at the history.
Promise to pay was 'invented' when Northern introduced cashless TVMs and needed to a way to ensure anyone who only had cash had a 'ticket' to travel. The ticket was a Promise to Pay.
Unfortunately it would take a very expensive series of Court cases to get case law which defines what a Promise to Pay is and whether it covers cash payments only or failed card readers as well. That is highly unlikely to happen so Northern will continue to dish out penalty notices.
Whenever a TVM or card payment fails I always take a photo of the TVM screen.
I've provided the quote and link. No mention of those who 'cannot' pay by card. The words are 'the customers who do not have the facility'.
If I have a card I have the facility, its not my issue if the tech fails or someone has smeared the TVM and payment card reader with bodily fluids and excrement (which I have encountered).
You need to look at the history.
Promise to pay was 'invented' when Northern introduced cashless TVMs and needed to a way to ensure anyone who only had cash had a 'ticket' to travel. The ticket was a Promise to Pay.
Unfortunately it would take a very expensive series of Court cases to get case law which defines what a Promise to Pay is and whether it covers cash payments only or failed card readers as well. That is highly unlikely to happen so Northern will continue to dish out penalty notices.
Whenever a TVM or card payment fails I always take a photo of the TVM screen.
The Promise to Pay Notice is authority to board the train without a ticket, for the purposes of the Byelaws and the Penalty Fares Regs. It's more relevant for the latter because the definition of "available" facilities includes a reference to being able to use payment facilities that could normally be used at that station.
So in other words there are potentially circumstances where, even though you would not be committing an offence under the Byelaws, you could be liable for a Penalty Fare. The Promise to Pay Notice gives passengers an opportunity to definitively avoid that liability.
So her card failed at low moor. She could have used an ATM at leeds to get cash. Indeed the revenue guys could have suggested that or did they just want their commision on the penalty.
To use the Promise to Pay you must have the cash to pay the fare available on your person from the moment you board the train, as you may be asked for it at any time.
If you often have problems with your card, it is probably sensible to carry some. Not only for this situation, but so e.g. you don't have to put all your supermarket shopping back! Or get the problem resolved.
I note it is a long time since the OP came back to the thread to clarify any of the points being asked to allow further advice to be given, despite having seemingly viewed the site a few days ago.
Let's hope the further appeals have been pursued as per advice up thread. I suspect we have got into a more general discussion about promise to Pay from TVMs that is of little direct help to the OP and her son.
I had wondered how paying 10p (or whatever) and getting a little slip, then paying the remainder at the next possible occasion, was better than simply paying the entire sum there.
But if the little slip says not just "10p paid" but "10p paid at Ottery St Catchpole", then it becomes much easier for the staff at Paddington to know what the appropriate fare is and the passenger can't say "well I got on at Maidenhead you know but the TVM wasn't working there".
I had wondered how paying 10p (or whatever) and getting a little slip, then paying the remainder at the next possible occasion, was better than simply paying the entire sum there.
But if the little slip says not just "10p paid" but "10p paid at Ottery St Catchpole", then it becomes much easier for the staff at Paddington to know what the appropriate fare is and the passenger can't say "well I got on at Maidenhead you know but the TVM wasn't working there".
If the ticket is not available from the machine : think PRIV, ranger, rover, daysaver, DUO in some instances, then you can pay by any method, as is only right and fair.
Similarly, discretion is exercised when the ticket is complex : think routings, time restrictions - or expensive - Its a big ask to expect people with no ticket training to trust themselves to get it right on expensive, long distance tickets. Such discretion is expected to be exercised by ALL revenue staff, and is briefed out as such.
The instructions to rail staff travel facilities holders (presumably coming from Northern) say that a PtPN should be obtained if travelling on a Penalty Fares service, from a Northern managed station. But the instructions do not say that holders must then pay by cash.
The instructions to rail staff travel facilities holders (presumably coming from Northern) say that a PtPN should be obtained if travelling on a Penalty Fares service, from a Northern managed station. But the instructions do not say that holders must then pay by cash.
Then why does all the publicity surrounding the PTP and the display on the TVM specifically say that? Why does it not say "or you wish to purchase a ticket or use a discount or method of payment not available on this machine"?
Then why does all the publicity surrounding the PTP and the display on the TVM specifically say that? Why does it not say "or you wish to purchase a ticket or use a discount or method of payment not available on this machine"?
As far as the public is concerned, it's purely there for those holding cash. Quite what someone holding card, but no cash, and intending to buy a rover is supposed to do... I really do not know. Give up and drive, I suppose!
I agree, it just demonstrates a complete lack of attention to detail. Issues such as this are probably dismissed as "edge cases" (if anyone at Northern has even thought about them), even though Penalty Fares are themselves intended to deal with the "edge case" of someone who is choosing not to pay!
So if you turn up at an unmanned station and for whatever reason the tvm won’t accept your card. You make the Journey and the guard doesn’t come through the train. If you go to pay at your destination why do they issue a penalty fare notice?
So if you turn up at an unmanned station and for whatever reason the tvm won’t accept your card. You make the Journey and the guard doesn’t come through the train. If you go to pay at your destination why do they issue a penalty fare notice?
Because they clearly don't train staff well enough to know when it's appropriate to issue a Penalty Fare. I would be surprised if the training were much more than "here's a PF form, go out and PF anyone at the excess fares window that looks like an easy target"
Because they clearly don't train staff well enough to know when it's appropriate to issue a Penalty Fare. I would be surprised if the training were much more than "here's a PF form, go out and PF anyone at the excess fares window that looks like an easy target"
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