Avanti West Coast Rolling Stock Updates

[Efini92]

What's happening with 221142-221143 that are no longer in use?

They’ve gone back to the leasing company.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Well maybe because Preston does Crewe to Chester so would need training and Crewe train managers isn’t for a few years it’s drivers only

Don’t Euston and Manchester TMs sign Crewe - Chester too? Plus with Crewe opening in a few years, it doesn’t make sense to keep it on Preston driver cards (especially with the removal of 221s).

Obviously if the plan is to run them on Blackpools it does make sense - but on the original plan (London - North Wales, Liverpool and Brums) it doesn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm confused as to what Blackpools they'll be running on? And will they be the 5-cars or 7-cars?

So far as I knew the plan was still Euston-Brum semifast (807), second Euston-Liverpool (807), Chester, North Wales and infrequent extensions of those (805).

 

[Efini92]

Well maybe because Preston does Crewe to Chester so would need training and Crewe train managers isn’t for a few years it’s drivers only

They sign it but im pretty sure they have no work over there at the minute. It’s Holyhead, Liverpool and euston.

 

[childwallblues]

So what stopped Virgin from increasing the service frequency? Was it for a lack of appropriate stock? If Avanti need 44 now for their current level of service I don't think that would've been sufficient stock for Virgin back in the day to introduce a second service outside of peak hours (specifically the 17:33 and 18:33 services on weekdays and 16:33 on weekends). In either case the 807s should hopefully enable a frequent enough level of half-hourly of services between London and Liverpool.

And bring back some cheap tickets to the route

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm confused as to what Blackpools they'll be running on? And will they be the 5-cars or 7-cars?

So far as I knew the plan was still Euston-Brum semifast (807), second Euston-Liverpool (807), Chester, North Wales and infrequent extensions of those (805).

2tph Euston Liverpool will require at least eight 807s, and the remaining two would have to be unallocated for maintenance purposes, so I assume the West Midlands services will use 5 and 10 carriage 805s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

2tph Euston Liverpool will require at least eight 807s, and the remaining two would have to be unallocated for maintenance purposes, so I assume the West Midlands services will use 5 and 10 carriage 805s?

As i understand it one of the two Liverpools will be a Pendolino, only the additional one will be 807 (the shorter train being so it can serve South Parkway).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As i understand it one of the two Liverpools will be a Pendolino, only the additional one will be 807 (the shorter train being so it can serve South Parkway).

Oh I see. Thanks.
I was wondering about the fast Birmingham that terminates at New Street actually.

Before the new TT changes were announced I assumed the current 2tph terminating at Birmingham (one calling just Watford, one calling just Rugby) would be 80x with the 390s taking the hourly through service towards Scotland that stops at MKC.

Now that the stops south of Coventry will be made on one separate semi-fast service (almost definitely 80x due to acceleration among other factors) and the hourly service to Scotland/The North continues using 390s, I wonder what will operate the remaining EUS - COV - B Int - BHM. Pendolinos I guess, for a consistent fast offering.

Edit: Ahh yes. That is the plan according to the consultation:

“Consistent half-hourly fast service between London Euston and the West Midlands, operated with refurbished Pendolinos. By removing stops south of Coventry, the fastest journey times between London and Birmingham will be 1 hour 16 minutes.
• The third Birmingham service will call at Watford Junction, Milton Keynes and Rugby, operated with new Hitachi trains. This supports reduced journey times on these intermediate flows and improved interchange with other rail services.”

 

[Sorcerer]

This is just a thought that sprang to my mind, but if 807s are meant to help free up some 390s for the Euston-Scotland via the West Midlands services, what are the chances of the 390s being cut back on the Liverpool routes so more stops at South Parkway can be included in the regular timetable or so more Pendolinos can be freed up? I know that it's been in demand for quite some time but would it be of any further benefit (or on the contrary to any detriment) to have more than one service per hour at the aforementioned station? Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any 390s to be cutback on any routes, but it just a thought that sprang to mind.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is just a thought that sprang to my mind, but if 807s are meant to help free up some 390s for the Euston-Scotland via the West Midlands services, what are the chances of the 390s being cut back on the Liverpool routes so more stops at South Parkway can be included in the regular timetable or so more Pendolinos can be freed up? I know that it's been in demand for quite some time but would it be of any further benefit (or on the contrary to any detriment) to have more than one service per hour at the aforementioned station? Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any 390s to be cutback on any routes, but it just a thought that sprang to mind.

AIUI the full plan is this from Dec 23:

1tph EUS COV BHI BHM
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS WTF MKC RUG COV BHI BHM
7-807 / 10-805

1tph EUS COV BHI BHM SAD WVH STA CRE WBQ WGN PRE LAN OXN/PNR CAR EDB/GLC
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS NUN SOT SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS STA CRE WLM SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS MKC RUG SOT MAC SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS MKC CRE RUN LPY LIV
7-807

1tph EUS TAM LTV RUN LIV
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS WBQ WGN PRE LAN OXN/PNR CAR GLC
11-390

1tph EUS STA CRE CHS
5-805 / 10-805

4tpd extension to BPN
4tpd extension to HHD
1tpd extension to SHR via WVH
1tpd extension to GOB via WRX

Walsall plans scrapped
Llandudno (Town) plans scrapped

Nuneaton/Lichfield/Tamworth go from peak only to 1tph
Rugby/Runcorn/Liverpool goes from 1tph to 2tph
Stafford goes from 1tph to 3tph
All Glasgow fasts booked 11 car

Here's a map I've drawn up on Powerpoint quickly to explain. Photo shows said map.

 

[krus_aragon]

Llandudno (Town) plans scrapped

That was only planned to be a single service on Saturdays, though.

 

[childwallblues]

This is just a thought that sprang to my mind, but if 807s are meant to help free up some 390s for the Euston-Scotland via the West Midlands services, what are the chances of the 390s being cut back on the Liverpool routes so more stops at South Parkway can be included in the regular timetable or so more Pendolinos can be freed up? I know that it's been in demand for quite some time but would it be of any further benefit (or on the contrary to any detriment) to have more than one service per hour at the aforementioned station? Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any 390s to be cutback on any routes, but it just a thought that sprang to mind.

It would be nice for London trains to stop at South Parkway but it will not be popular with the regular users of the stacar park will again be filled at some ridlculous early hour.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm confused as to what Blackpools they'll be running on? And will they be the 5-cars or 7-cars?
So far as I knew the plan was still Euston-Brum semifast (807), second Euston-Liverpool (807), Chester, North Wales and infrequent extensions of those (805).

807s have to free up enough 390s so that no other type of stock works north of Preston.
I think that means 807s on some Euston-Birmingham and Euston-Liverpool services (the regulars, not the extras which might come later).
It's awkward to visualise just now because the Euston-Birmingham-Glasgows are mostly being sent to Blackpool.
The utilisation of the 390/221 fleets was well known pre-covid, but quite hard to work out now.
An 805 will also be needed on the Shrewsbury service, so again that means from Euston somehow.
Blackpool also had a 221 service, and called at Poulton and Kirkham - if it runs, will this become an 805 or an 807?
It used to combine with a Holyhead 221 portion at Crewe.

 

[RealTrains07]

AIUI the full plan is this from Dec 23:

1tph EUS COV BHI BHM
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS WTF MKC RUG COV BHI BHM
7-807 / 10-805

1tph EUS COV BHI BHM SAD WVH STA CRE WBQ WGN PRE LAN OXN/PNR CAR EDB/GLC
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS NUN SOT SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS STA CRE WLM SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS MKC RUG SOT MAC SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS MKC CRE RUN LPY LIV
7-807

1tph EUS TAM LTV RUN LIV
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS WBQ WGN PRE LAN OXN/PNR CAR GLC
11-390

1tph EUS STA CRE CHS
5-805 / 10-805

4tpd extension to BPN
4tpd extension to HHD
1tpd extension to SHR via WVH
1tpd extension to GOB via WRX

Walsall plans scrapped
Llandudno (Town) plans scrapped

Nuneaton/Lichfield/Tamworth go from peak only to 1tph
Rugby/Runcorn/Liverpool goes from 1tph to 2tph
Stafford goes from 1tph to 3tph
All Glasgow fasts booked 11 car

Here's a map I've drawn up on Powerpoint quickly to explain. Photo shows said map.

So stafford is losing both liverpool services??!

Thats not going to go down well considering it currently has the existing liverpool pendo service and was meant to organise be getting the second 807 service too.

Going from 1 tph to 3 is great but cutting key services while doing so makes the changes completely pointless.

At least the 807 fleet is being used to their maximum

 

[jfollows]

AIUI the full plan is this from Dec 23:


1tph EUS STA CRE WLM SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

WML for Wilmslow ......

 

[py_megapixel]

Going from 1 tph to 3 is great but cutting key services while doing so makes the changes completely pointless.

No it doesn't. Stafford now has additional direct services to Manchester, Chester and Glasgow (which should save some changes in Crewe for people heading north, and in Manchester's case may take some pressure off XC), more services to London, and still retains a direct link to Liverpool (albeit with the extra stops in Hartford and Winsford)

 

[Bletchleyite]

So stafford is losing both liverpool services??!

Thats not going to go down well considering it currently has the existing liverpool pendo service and was meant to organise be getting the second 807 service too.

Going from 1 tph to 3 is great but cutting key services while doing so makes the changes completely pointless.

At least the 807 fleet is being used to their maximum

There will always be losers. On the south WCML they are probably thus:
1. MKC loses direct Scotland services
2. MKC has slightly slower services to Birmingham and Manchester
3. Cheddington's passenger and his dog and bicycle will have a slightly slower service to Euston as the Trings will be semifast and the MKCs will call at Apsley, Kings Langley, Bushey and Harrow (this was a very sensible move overall, though, as it means better connectivity and the only station actually disadvantaged is Cheddington)
4. Northampton's service to Euston is reduced by 1 actual TPH* and is slightly slower as the faster service that presently does not call at Wolverton and Bletchley will now call at both

* Though the existing southbound 3tph all arrive at Euston within a 10 minute window between xx23 and xx33, so it's not usefully 3tph, it's more like 1tph. Thus, the new service will actually be more useful, as it will be either a 30-30 or a 28-32 split, depending on which end it's off 2 minutes for the Watford Junction call in one but not the other.

Stafford will still have 1tph LNR to Liverpool plus connections so that's hardly a killer.

 

[Pep and co]

They’ve gone back to the leasing company.

Presumably back at Central rivers?

 

[Efini92]

Presumably back at Central rivers?

They were on central rivers, im not sure where they are now. Presumably in a yard somewhere.

 

[The_Train]

Did 143 ever get the AWC vinyls?

 

[dereksingh291]

Did 143 ever get the AWC vinyls?

Yes it did

 

[The_Train]

Yes it did

Thanks - I had it down as having gone in for repaint in Sept 2021 but no records after. Was it sometime in October that it reappeared in that livery?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

AIUI the full plan is this from Dec 23:

1tph EUS COV BHI BHM
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS WTF MKC RUG COV BHI BHM
7-807 / 10-805

1tph EUS COV BHI BHM SAD WVH STA CRE WBQ WGN PRE LAN OXN/PNR CAR EDB/GLC
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS NUN SOT SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS STA CRE WLM SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS MKC RUG SOT MAC SPT MAN
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS MKC CRE RUN LPY LIV
7-807

1tph EUS TAM LTV RUN LIV
9-390 / 11-390

1tph EUS WBQ WGN PRE LAN OXN/PNR CAR GLC
11-390

1tph EUS STA CRE CHS
5-805 / 10-805

4tpd extension to BPN
4tpd extension to HHD
1tpd extension to SHR via WVH
1tpd extension to GOB via WRX

Walsall plans scrapped
Llandudno (Town) plans scrapped

Nuneaton/Lichfield/Tamworth go from peak only to 1tph
Rugby/Runcorn/Liverpool goes from 1tph to 2tph
Stafford goes from 1tph to 3tph
All Glasgow fasts booked 11 car

Here's a map I've drawn up on Powerpoint quickly to explain. Photo shows said map.

Chester is CTR not CHS.
Looks like Holyhead extensions will be 2 down on the pre-covid 6tpd Voyagers.
How will Blackpool be resourced? 805s split from Chester services at Crewe?
Crewe will get its former 2tph non-stop back (to Glasgow/Liverpool).
At least the hourly Chester and 2-hourly Preston-Glasgow appear to be back.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Chester is CTR not CHS.
Looks like Holyhead extensions will be 2 down on the pre-covid 6tpd Voyagers.
How will Blackpool be resourced? 805s split from Chester services at Crewe?
Crewe will get its former 2tph non-stop back (to Glasgow/Liverpool).
At least the hourly Chester and 2-hourly Preston-Glasgow appear to be back.

My mistake over Chester though it is of course obvious that I mean that rather than Churston Sidings

Holyhead will stay the same as pre-COVID; I had thought pre-COVID was 4tpd from Euston (with 2tpd from Crewe or Birmingham)

I believe Blackpool will be the same as pre-COVID which used additional paths alongside the TV Glasgow?

Crewe will not be served by an hourly Glasgow service. The Glasgow via Trent Valley will run non stop to Warrington. In addition, the Liverpool that calls at Crewe will also call at Milton Keynes. Crewe will lose off peak non-stop services to London.

 

[tornado]

What seats are specced for the new 805/807 - the same as GWR, or LUMO?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What seats are specced for the new 805/807 - the same as GWR, or LUMO?

Same seats as the Pendolino refurb for Standard, which is a variant of the Lumo seat (same base, slightly different cushion).

For 1st I read in Modern Railways that FISA had a contract with Avanti for First Class seats, so I guess that means the FISA LEAN as per 1st in Greater Anglia's FLIRTs. Good choice if so.

 

[tornado]

Same seats as the Pendolino refurb for Standard, which is a variant of the Lumo seat (same base, slightly different cushion).

For 1st I read in Modern Railways that FISA had a contract with Avanti for First Class seats, so I guess that means the FISA LEAN as per 1st in Greater Anglia's FLIRTs. Good choice if so.

Great! So basically similar to the LUMO experience which is decent

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great! So basically similar to the LUMO experience which is decent

Yep, though probably a lower density layout with a few more tables (though I don't think plans have been revealed yet). I'd expect, but can't confirm, a layout more like the standard 80x with a mix of tables and airline seats.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this is a traction and rolling stock thread to discuss Avanti West Coast Rolling Stock Updates.

Discussion of the new timetables for Avanti should be made in this thread:

December 2022 Timetable Changes

As per the title, the changes that are planned for the December 2022 timetable change. The big one should be the WCML rewrite, assuming that it is still going ahead. Feel free to add and update the thread.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Same seats as the Pendolino refurb for Standard, which is a variant of the Lumo seat (same base, slightly different cushion).

For 1st I read in Modern Railways that FISA had a contract with Avanti for First Class seats, so I guess that means the FISA LEAN as per 1st in Greater Anglia's FLIRTs. Good choice if so.

That is not good at all, taking into account the shoddy excuse for First Class in 745s, which is the same seat (possibly tiny bit wider) in a 2+1 layout.