Station platforms, it's gone too far, it's crossed a red line (literally)

[Agent_Squash]

Are Platform Edge Screens/Doors on Platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly a possibility?

Not unless you standardised the stock and the length of units it’s not as far as any ORR approved installation

 

[flixtonman]

Not unless you standardised the stock and the length of units it’s not as far as any ORR approved installation

I have very limited knowledge indeed, but would it be possible for there to be 'stop signs' for the drivers of 2-car, 3-car, 4-car, 5-car, 6-car etc etc trains to stop at - in the knowledge that enough doors would be appropriately placed?

 

[Watershed]

I have very limited knowledge indeed, but would it be possible for there to be 'stop signs' for the drivers of 2-car, 3-car, 4-car, 5-car, 6-car etc etc trains to stop at - in the knowledge that enough doors would be appropriately placed?

The problem is that you have a mixture of 20-26m length stock, manufactured by about 5 different companies in different eras, and with highly variable door positions within each coach (e.g. some trains have end doors, others doors at thirds).

So the only realistic way it could work would be if you had platform edge doors that raised vertically rather than sliding horizontally.

Would it be doable? Yes, in principle. Such systems do exist. But again, it would be very expensive, even if it were of a rudimentary manually operated type (rather than integrated with the signalling system for instance).

Much cheaper to paint some red lines, employ people on minimum wage to shout at punters, and call it a job well done

 

[NSEFAN]

I don't understand this. If you force passengers to stay within the red boxes won't it be much more overcrowded on the platform? Or is it to provide clear paths for alighting passengers?

All platforms should be designed to cater for a train load of passengers waiting behind the yellow line, right?

The crowding in of itself isn’t the issue for platform-train interface safety. It’s when people get too close/lose situational awareness that it’s a problem. You’re also right about leaving space and a thoroughfare for passengers to alight. There’s also the need for a clear line of sight for dispatch.

Again, you’re right about the platforms. They ought to be big enough for the number of people using them. Look at Reading for an example of how it’s done. Sadly, there seems to be no will to invest to actually solve the problem. The Ordsall curve has probably worsened the issue by funnelling more tph via these platforms.

 

[ARIC]

As far as I'm aware, the idea is for passengers to remain behind the yellow, and wait behind the red.

There are a few benefits to the red line which I think, even though it makes the platforms uncomfortable and stressful, are worth it.

- The corridor between the red and yellow lines allow for safe movement of staff and passengers. Dispatchers on these platforms are split between two teams, and cover both platforms - they need to be able to move fast and safely to the correct positions. It also allows passengers to safely move down and use available space.

- Dispatchers work with a lot of different unit types, and need clear sightlines to do their jobs. On a curved platform, if the line they need to stand behind is also the line hundreds of people are using, they wouldn't be able to see the entire train.

- having a metre deep section of platform free does help with dealing with alighting passengers, although it might not appear obvious how. Boarding passengers do rush forward, but this just shifts that metre deep corridor behind them. This gives some breathing room on the platform for alighting passengers to reach the stairs and lift

 

[Falcon1200]

This is rubbish.

I can assure you, having dealt during my railway career with far too many incidents where people have come to harm, that it is not rubbish.

 

[John Luxton]

Agree, the reflections from interior lighting and adjacent passengers can ruin a good shot. I've managed to get some great shots by lowering my phone through a hopper window but obviously it's a very risky business!

That said, whilst it's a shame, an ability to take good pictures is well down my priority list for features that a train should have - unless it's an observation carriage for instance.

I am sure it could be possible to have a partially opening window which would not only provide for ventilation should the aircon fail or need enhancing on very hot days with some real fresh air. A window which opens wide enough to pop a camera lens though not head through. Sliding ventilators which used to be fitted to many buses come to mind too small to get a head through but would be wide enough for a camera lens.

A lot of effort is put into marketing certain scenic routes as a tourist experience - but people have reduced opportunity to record their trips for posterity.

I have only really made one trip by train outside of the British Isles (Norway in 2012) but can anyone tell me if the "no opening windows rule" is unique to these islands or is more widespread or gaining momentum elsewhere.

 

[dosxuk]

The problem with P13/P14 is that they are being used by too many people for too many services, without the infrastructure to support it. If there was only a reasonable proportion of a train's passengers on the platform, with nobody waiting for other services then the wouldn't need to be the lines or the shouting. Instead we have overcrowded trains arriving, with more people waiting for them than they will comfortably hold, a timetable that means they need to complete duties in less time than they need and the risk of even small delays causing widespread disruption in the area. I can't think of many other stations outside of London Underground where so many people are expected to be within such close distances to moving trains on such a regular basis.

Put simply - the platforms will not be improved by getting rid of the lines - they will only be improved by being fit for purpose.

I also assume the OP, based on his language, has never heard of the word "accident".

if a group of lads are messing about and one gets pushed on to the track, that's their fault, nobody else's.

To protect one person every few years who hasn't got the brains they were born with ?

anyone with half a brain

Why do some people seem to think everyone is a moron ?

Don't get me wrong some people are incapable of looking after themselves

dumb down everything to a level where even someone with no common sense at all could not come to harm

If you could guarantee that everyone on those platforms would obey the lines at all time, never mess around, joke, apply "common sense" religiously and never have any form of accident, then I agree, the red lines and shoutyness wouldn't be needed. But this is the real world. If someone messing around or slipping on a spilled coffee ends up in front of a train or being caught by the side of a passing freight train and dragged, it's not just that person who would be affected. On top of those who would actually have to deal with the physical aftermath, the service provision through Piccadilly would be destroyed, with even a short suspension of services causing issues for thousands.

The OP appears to feel he has had his life disrupted by being asked to obey a simple instruction that was well within his ability and would cause him no disadvantage - what would this thread have been like if he'd got stuck in Manchester overnight after some "moron" with "half a brain" couldn't use their "common sense" and had caused services through those platforms to be cancelled?

 

[John Luxton]

The OP appears to feel he has had his life disrupted by being asked to obey a simple instruction that was well within his ability and would cause him no disadvantage - what would this thread have been like if he'd got stuck in Manchester overnight after some "moron" with "half a brain" couldn't use their "common sense" and had caused services through those platforms to be cancelled?

I think the problem here is that people are showing resentment for how they perceive that their lives are being increasingly micromanged by authority and C19 has increased awareness of this in some sectors of society. it certainly has with me.

One or two journalists and commentators who don't follow the mainstream agenda have picked up on this trend too - thus it is not just a thing peculiar to the railways.

If you have not seen it I suggest you search out the video "The Slow Death of Freedom" on YouTube by Peter Hitchens made two years ago and it makes valid comment on this.

Some people want to have greater control over their lives without them feeling that they are being controlled to an unacceptable degree, whilst others are happy to go along with it.

We should not dismiss contrary views so readily as is the habit these days.

 

[DarloRich]

We should not dismiss contrary views so readily as is the habit these days.

the problem is many of those views are built on foundations of utter bunkum

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are Platform Edge Screens/Doors on Platforms 13 and 14 at Manchester Piccadilly a possibility?

No, because the trains used do not have consistent door positions.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

We should not dismiss contrary views so readily as is the habit these days.

I don't think it's a case of the OP's view being dismissed out of hand, just that's there is a very real reason why it exists in this way.

It may seem messy, and maybe if the reasoning was displayed at the station it would make more sense, but it is the OP that is suggesting people have half a brain for daring to be human and have an accident, or to drop something which would put them in peril. Nothing to do with mainstream media/views. It's my job to control and watch the space between those lines and the train.

Lines on the platforms are thankfully here to stay, they make my job much easier and platforms far more safer than if they weren't there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I'm aware, the idea is for passengers to remain behind the yellow, and wait behind the red.

I could see the sense in this - without it, you end up with people walking right along the edge as there's no other option (I have both seen and done this at other stations).

However, this isn't how it's enforced - they shout at you the second your foot crosses the line.

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

I really dislike platform 13 and 14 at Manchester.
Services running through are normally packed to begin with.
Security staff up and down the lengths of the platform shouting at everyone.
That daft red box.. you can't lean on the barriers on the end of the platform as the red box stops a few metres before it reaches it. Even though you're still well within the yellow lines either side.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have very limited knowledge indeed, but would it be possible for there to be 'stop signs' for the drivers of 2-car, 3-car, 4-car, 5-car, 6-car etc etc trains to stop at - in the knowledge that enough doors would be appropriately placed?

You’d probably have to have identical length stock, even if the doors were exactly the same on each carriage of the set. The ORR almost certainly wouldn’t allow the slim possibility of a platform edge door opening without a train present, in case a fault occurred. When the LU Jubilee Line trains were extended and their PEDS altered to suit the extra cars it had to be done in one big bang, they weren’t allowed to have the two lengths of train in service together

 

[John Luxton]

the problem is many of those views are built on foundations of utter bunkum

Sometimes yes - but many of hold such views based on the attitude that "We didn't do it that way in the past!" people often dislike change when they see no real reason for it especially if they feel as though they are being "controlled".

I think you will find, exacerbated by C19, there is a growing minority which is kicking back against various attempts to impose what they perceive as imposition of control measures.

As I said earlier in this thread for me platform lines are not a big issue and I can see positive benefits if one wants a clear view down the platform, not just from the dispatcher / guard's point of view but also from the rail photographer's view point.

My big bug bear is the lack of opening windows - but sadly that is a battle long lost.

 

[zwk500]

Sometimes yes - but many of hold such views based on the attitude that "We didn't do it that way in the past!" people often dislike change when they see no real reason for it especially if they feel as though they are being "controlled".

Again, no single person can see all angles. Change happens whether you like it or not, and sometimes it's bad but more often it's good. For example, in Rugby now we get games 'ruined' by 'soft' red cards for tackles that wouldn't have even been penalised 40 years ago. The upside of this is that players now have a much lower risk of degenerative cognitive conditions at the age of 40.

I think you will find, exacerbated by C19, there is a growing minority which is kicking back against various attempts to impose what they perceive as imposition of control measures.

And being incredibly individualistic and selfish about it. We shouldn't throw away civil liberties, but they should be challenged in the proper channels (Station management, MPs) rather than just refusing to abide as and when you feel like it. Being asked to stand 2m back on a station platform to avoid getting too close to a freight train is a reasonable restriction on an individual wishing to have a nosy at the brake rigging given the impact of even 2 minutes disruption at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Malaxa]

. But this is the real world. If someone messing around or slipping on a spilled coffee ends up in front of a train or being caught by the side of a passing freight train and dragged, it's not just that person who would be affected. On top of those who would actually have to deal with t
ccident".



he physical aftermath, the service provision through Piccadilly would be destroyed, with even a short suspension of services causing issues for thousands.

The OP appears to feel he has had his life disrupted by being asked to obey a simple instruction that was well within his ability and would cause him no disadvantage - what would this thread have been like if he'd got stuck in Manchester overnight after some "moron" with "half a brain" couldn't use their "common sense" and had caused services through those platforms to be cancelled?

If the platform zealots spot any coffee being spilled, this would be cause for closing both platforms for a deep clean. We don't want yet another grannie falling under a container train at Piccadilly, do we?

 

[DarloRich]

Sometimes yes - but many of hold such views based on the attitude that "We didn't do it that way in the past!" people often dislike change when they see no real reason for it especially if they feel as though they are being "controlled".

that's fine; right up to the point where someone gets hurt or worse. We didn't do it that way in the past doesn't wash with the HSEA or the Judge!

 

[miklcct]

You’d probably have to have identical length stock, even if the doors were exactly the same on each carriage of the set. The ORR almost certainly wouldn’t allow the slim possibility of a platform edge door opening without a train present, in case a fault occurred. When the LU Jubilee Line trains were extended and their PEDS altered to suit the extra cars it had to be done in one big bang, they weren’t allowed to have the two lengths of train in service together

I can't see different train lengths being a problem.

The platform doors should have sensors to detect a train being there while opening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if the red line is unavoidable, Network Rail could make the whole thing less oppressive by employing/contracting better quality staff. The staff they have there are literally rent-a-thugs with no customer service abilities whatsoever.

 

[zwk500]

Even if the red line is unavoidable, Network Rail could make the whole thing less oppressive by employing/contracting better quality staff. The staff they have there are literally rent-a-thugs with no customer service abilities whatsoever.

Network Rail is somewhat constrained in how much they can afford to pay the staff. If you are only paying minimum wage, expect minimum levels of customer service.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Network Rail is somewhat constrained in how much they can afford to pay the staff. If you are only paying minimum wage, expect minimum levels of customer service.

Having done minimum wage "Customer Service" jobs in the past, just to say that it (hopefully obviously?) doesn't follow that people on minimum wage always do a poor job...

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

I have seen someone belted round the head by a bus wing mirror in London. Only once, though.

The provision of cameras instead of large mirrors is removing this danger.

Speaking of. This happened in Melbourne:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Old mate didn't realise there were mirrors in the middle of the train.

 

[modernrail]

As I understand it, the red line is the Tories answer to creating a crossrail of the north. They said, repeatedly, that they would build 2 extra platforms. Instead they did not. This leaves platforms 13 and 14 as the hell on railway earth they have been for years.

Instead, we have this wonderful red line. It theoretically allows a bit of room for passengers to disembark. Of course it does no such thing because there are two many passengers using this complex, mixed traffic, interchange platform. There have been for years. There is only so much that little piece of tarmac can be asked to do without things getting silly, which they did about a decade ago.

So before the OP gives himself a hernia he might want to vent in the right direction. Our current political masters who say one thing and do another.

The theory of that red line is actually not bad, create room around arriving trains to get people off the platform so that boarding can then take place in a calm way. Of course it doesn’t work, because there are too many passengers for the platform and not enough seats on the trains. Weirdly, staggeringly, what that results in is a massively unpleasant rugby scrum like experience made even worse by futile and usually rude shouts to get behind it and place yourself exactly where?

The bloke in No 10 mate, that is who is responsible for the red line, and you can bet your bottom dollar he will have crossed it plenty of times.

 

[Falcon1200]

The bloke in No 10 mate, that is who is responsible for the red line,

The bloke in No 10 is responsible for a lot of things, but this is taking it too far; None of the previous incumbents, including those from the current opposition who were in power from 1997 to 2010, provided extra through platforms at Piccadilly either !

 

[modernrail]

Absolutely agree with this. They do seem to get the Piccadilly staff from a particularly poor charm school but I always find it rather boring how people who profess solidarity by being members of unions are so quick to dismiss their fellow humans just because they are at the stage in their life where a minimum wage job is what they can get. Actually, in most cases I am surprised by how most people being paid peanuts manage to hide their understandable contempt at being looked down on.

Having done minimum wage "Customer Service" jobs in the past, just to say that it (hopefully obviously?) doesn't follow that people on minimum wage always do a poor job...

 

[WesternBiker]

Agreed. The yellow line at Picc now serves no purpose at all.

The mish-mash of lines isn’t very helpful, particularly to visitors unfamiliar with what they might mean: if you want people to take safety indications seriously, it’s usually better to make them simple, and clear.

As others have said, the fundamental problem is that the platforms were not designed for the level of traffic they now have to handle: this being seriously exacerbated by having trains which are often too short.

 

[modernrail]

Did they repeatedly announce it and then not go ahead with it???? Of all the things not being taken too far, pointing out the Tories absolute flip flop announcements on rail investment in the north are pretty much top of the list.

Don’t get me wrong, I am balanced, Labour let a no growth northern franchise, that was also incredibly short sighted and damaging. However, they did not make loads of promises to ‘hook’ the Red Wall only to reverse a lot of it. They also did not waste a big pile of cash building half an infrastructure project making the very expensive Ordsall chord pretty much pointless.

The bloke in No 10 is responsible for a lot of things, but this is taking it too far; None of the previous incumbents, including those from the current opposition who were in power from 1997 to 2010, provided extra through platforms at Piccadilly either !

 

[Malaxa]

Was the platform jam-packed when the OP was admonished not to get too close to the container train? We need to know. Perhaps there were hordes of latter day hobos and supertramps all trying to clamber aboard, creating a crush?