Potential TOC swaps

[Nick Hall]

Transfer everything to BR.
I’ll get me coat

 

[Caaardiff]

As regards Wales, I feel it would be consistent if all routes with regional DMUs were part of Transport for Wales, except Cross Country to Birmingham & Nottingham. I therefore feel that Cardiff - Portsmouth should join Transport for Wales. However, I consider GWR and Avanti the correct operators linking their areas of Wales with London.

In another example, I agree with you @Chiltern006 that Crewe - Chester should be Northern. I similarly feel Liverpool - Chester via Liverpool South Parkway should be Northern.

I would think Cardiff - Birmingham would be better with TfW and Cardiff - Taunton would be better with TfW as well, but both of those should start at Swansea.

With Chester - Liverpool, the TfW aspiration is to extend the service to Llandudno as well as link up with a service from Cardiff. Chester - Crewe also works for TfW are Chester is a TfW station as well as both Chester and Crewe being large train crew bases.

I think Wrexham - Bidston should transfer to Merseyrail. TfW are making a complete hash of that line trying to bring 230's in. At least Merseyrail could extend it into Liverpool.
I also think TfW's Crewe - Shrewsbury should be extended all stops to Hereford to enable the Manchester services to stop less at smaller stations.

 

[markymark2000]

Few ideas

• Crewe to Chester transfer to Northern
• Shrewsbury to Crewe shuttles to WMR

Crewe to Chester I agree with generally because the Welsh Govt train operator should not run any routes which are solely in England. In practical terms though, you would have to have a small crew depot in Chester for Northern. The only positive that would come from this is it being ran by an operator subject to DFT rules, not Welsh Government. Operationally if a unit goes down, it will take longer for the service to recover with replacement units being in Manchester versus Chester. I think one is kind of neutral. Wouldn't make any better or worse.


Shrewsbury to Crewe I think would be daft with West Mids because TFW run the Marshes line and so it would cause confusion probably. Also the shuttles are only 1 diagram and normally a 153. You could maybe staff it but as far as units, WMR has no sprinters so you would be wasting a class 170 on it. Biggest waste of money and capacity. TFW have appropriate units based locally and even if the shuttle was to be transferred to WMR, TFW staff have to have the knowledge anyway for their existing services. This wouldn't benefit passengers and operationally would be a pain in the behind. Plus removing a 2 carriage train from the network needlessly when the service copes with a 1 carriage.
While it pains me to say given my justification for the Chester-Crewe shuttle transferring to Northern, I think the Shrewsbury-Crewe is best with TFW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2022 ==

I would think Cardiff - Birmingham would be better with TfW and Cardiff - Taunton would be better with TfW as well, but both of those should start at Swansea.

Cardiff -Birmingham is an interesting one that I haven't seen before. I think if it wasn't for Maestag, the Cheltenham Spa to Cardiff should be ran by Cross Country or GWR, I don't think Cheltenham Spa fits into TFW really.

As for Cardiff - Taunton, Disagree strongly. It couldn't fit more into GWR. It's GWR connections at all points along the way.

With Chester - Liverpool, the TfW aspiration is to extend the service to Llandudno as well as link up with a service from Cardiff. Chester - Crewe also works for TfW are Chester is a TfW station as well as both Chester and Crewe being large train crew bases.

If it comes about that this service doesn't end up being extended due to financial pressures, the Halton Curve should be with Northern. That one is an easy one for me. 100% fits Northern more than TFW.

I think Wrexham - Bidston should transfer to Merseyrail. TfW are making a complete hash of that line trying to bring 230's in. At least Merseyrail could extend it into Liverpool.
I also think TfW's Crewe - Shrewsbury should be extended all stops to Hereford to enable the Manchester services to stop less at smaller stations.

Agreed but only when the 230s are in place. If the 150s are on it then it makes no sense as TFW have the 150s for more services in Chester. As for making a hash of bringing in new trains, Merseyrail are making a hash of their new trains too so that probably isn't the best arguement.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From what I gather, Hillhouse at Huddersfield will become a Northern depot, so likely Hudds - Leeds stoppers return to Northern with electric rolling stock. Can't see Hudds - Manchester returning to Northern. Especially as TPE are likely to take over the Hudds - Wakefield service in due course.

The TPE to Wakefield proposal is entirely separate from the future of the (currently bustituted) Huddersfield to Wakefield/Castleford service. The reason for extending to Kirkgate was simply to allow it to run as a 6-car and not block a platform at Huddersfield. Running in service to Wakefield Kirkgate was just a way of making use of the turnback move. If it happens, it will run non-stop between Huddersfield and Wakefield, so isn't a replacement for the currently shelved Northern service.

 

[LittleAH]

The TPE to Wakefield proposal is entirely separate from the future of the (currently bustituted) Huddersfield to Wakefield/Castleford service. The reason for extending to Kirkgate was simply to allow it to run as a 6-car and not block a platform at Huddersfield. Running in service to Wakefield Kirkgate was just a way of making use of the turnback move. If it happens, it will run non-stop between Huddersfield and Wakefield, so isn't a replacement for the currently shelved Northern service.

I wouldn’t be so sure

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wouldn’t be so sure

About which part?

 

[MattRat]

Transfer Liverpool to Nottingham to Northern. Plenty of ways to free up stock for the route, and I doubt they can be any worse than EMR or TPE. It's the only real option at this point.

 

[Chiltern006]

Manchester to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds stoppers to Northern. Reduces the need for 185s and allows TPE to mostly become IC without the need for local services

 

[swt_passenger]

Transfer Liverpool to Nottingham to Northern. Plenty of ways to free up stock for the route, and I doubt they can be any worse than EMR or TPE. It's the only real option at this point.

EMR already have stock for the route, what is the problem you’re trying to solve?

 

[317 forever]

I would think Cardiff - Birmingham would be better with TfW and Cardiff - Taunton would be better with TfW as well, but both of those should start at Swansea.

With Chester - Liverpool, the TfW aspiration is to extend the service to Llandudno as well as link up with a service from Cardiff. Chester - Crewe also works for TfW are Chester is a TfW station as well as both Chester and Crewe being large train crew bases.

I think Wrexham - Bidston should transfer to Merseyrail. TfW are making a complete hash of that line trying to bring 230's in. At least Merseyrail could extend it into Liverpool.
I also think TfW's Crewe - Shrewsbury should be extended all stops to Hereford to enable the Manchester services to stop less at smaller stations.

If the Cardiff - Birmingham service terminated there and did not continue to Nottingham, I would agree that it should go to TfW Rail.

Otherwise, to avoid TfW having a near monopoly in Wales, maybe all cross-border services should be run by their English counterparts. So yes, Birmingham still with Cross Country. Likewise Bidston - Wrexham would indeed be MerseyRail (or 2nd choice Northern). However, Cheltenham and Taunton would move to Great Western, and Manchester - in line with other long-distance services there except Birmingham or London - to TransPennine. TransPennine would probably need to be renamed for including Scotland & Wales services, a very long way from the Pennines!

 

[Caaardiff]

If the Cardiff - Birmingham service terminated there and did not continue to Nottingham, I would agree that it should go to TfW Rail.

Otherwise, to avoid TfW having a near monopoly in Wales, maybe all cross-border services should be run by their English counterparts. So yes, Birmingham still with Cross Country. Likewise Bidston - Wrexham would indeed be MerseyRail (or 2nd choice Northern). However, Cheltenham and Taunton would move to Great Western, and Manchester - in line with other long-distance services there except Birmingham or London - to TransPennine. TransPennine would probably need to be renamed for including Scotland & Wales services, a very long way from the Pennines!

I think quoting TfW as having a near Monopoly is a bit extreme. North Wales has Avanti, South Wales has GWR, Chester - Liverpool has Merseyrail, as well as an overlap from Runcorn into Liverpool with Avanti, Chester - Manchester & Crewe - Manchester has Northern, Shrewsbury - Birmingham has WMT. So handing over Cardiff - Birmingham (terminating) to TfW only makes it one line as a Monopoly. The majority of routes that TfW operate on alongside another operator is pretty much all the lines that has the demand for 2 operators. The rest of TfW's network doesn't have that level of demand.

If rail was regulated for the benefit of the passenger then Monopolies shouldn't be an issue. I'm sure there's several TOC's that have much more of a regional Monopoly than TfW has.

 

[mmh]

Since TfW has a depot at Chester and Northern ... er, doesn't ... who would work it

Why does that matter? Creating a new depot shouldn't be any more difficult than putting a new noticeboard up.

 

[py_megapixel]

Could the Leeds-Chester service be extended to Crewe?

Crewe does lack any sort of direct connection to the north east, so it might be beneficial from that perspective as well. It would be a bit circuitous though.

 

[JonathanH]

Could the Leeds-Chester service be extended to Crewe?

Crewe does lack any sort of direct connection to the north east, so it might be beneficial from that perspective as well. It would be a bit circuitous though.

Not really clear what that would offer relative to changing in Manchester for the services that already run to Crewe.

Chester gives connections to North Wales. Where else does Crewe give that can't be reached changing at Warrington or Manchester?

 

[dk1]

Could the Leeds-Chester service be extended to Crewe?

Crewe does lack any sort of direct connection to the north east, so it might be beneficial from that perspective as well. It would be a bit circuitous though.

Wouldn't it be easier to just change at Warrington?

 

[py_megapixel]

I was considering that the main purpose would be providing a neat way to transfer Chester-Crewe into Northern, with any additional connectivity being an additional benefit.

 

[markymark2000]

If the Cardiff - Birmingham service terminated there and did not continue to Nottingham, I would agree that it should go to TfW Rail.

Otherwise, to avoid TfW having a near monopoly in Wales, maybe all cross-border services should be run by their English counterparts. So yes, Birmingham still with Cross Country. Likewise Bidston - Wrexham would indeed be MerseyRail (or 2nd choice Northern). However, Cheltenham and Taunton would move to Great Western, and Manchester - in line with other long-distance services there except Birmingham or London - to TransPennine. TransPennine would probably need to be renamed for including Scotland & Wales services, a very long way from the Pennines!

The issue with what you say is that technically that means everything in North and Mid Wales then becomes ran by other companies. The Cambrian runs to Shrewsbury Birmingham. The Marches all run via Shrewsbury and Hereford so run in England. Manchester to North Wales Coast. All TFW would run north of the Valleys is the Llandudno shuttles and Ffestiniog Line (and that would need some changes as the Llandudno shuttles interwork with cross border routes and the Ffestiniog line set returns to Chester in service.


I am not TFWs biggest fan by any stretch but this is way too far. Yes some routes should be with other companies but certainly not to the extent that you mention.

 

[317 forever]

The issue with what you say is that technically that means everything in North and Mid Wales then becomes ran by other companies. The Cambrian runs to Shrewsbury Birmingham. The Marches all run via Shrewsbury and Hereford so run in England. Manchester to North Wales Coast. All TFW would run north of the Valleys is the Llandudno shuttles and Ffestiniog Line (and that would need some changes as the Llandudno shuttles interwork with cross border routes and the Ffestiniog line set returns to Chester in service.


I am not TFWs biggest fan by any stretch but this is way too far. Yes some routes should be with other companies but certainly not to the extent that you mention.

I admit that I did forget about the Cambrian and Marches lines under that scenario. I think what it amounts to is I want all cross-border services except London/Nottingham run by TfW, or none of them.

 

[CBlue]

EMR already have stock for the route, what is the problem you’re trying to solve?

Solution looking for a problem most likely. There's always been posters on here who can't stand everything not being in neat little boxes, with a "east Midlands" branded operator running to Liverpool being an enormous issue for precisely no-one outside of their bubble.

 

[MattRat]

Solution looking for a problem most likely. There's always been posters on here who can't stand everything not being in neat little boxes, with a "east Midlands" branded operator running to Liverpool being an enormous issue for precisely no-one outside of their bubble.

Or it could be the service they run is terrible and often overcrowded, with trains that are on their death bed.

 

[CBlue]

Or it could be the service they run is terrible and often overcrowded, with trains that are on their death bed.

DfT control the purse strings and call the shots on service provision, not the TOC. Would it make you feel better if your terrible overcrowded service had stickers saying "Northern" on the side rather than "EMR"? I can't see what else would change.

 

[Recessio]

Another one being the West London Line services by Southern. should be transferred to Overground IMO

Agreed, curtailing it to Watford Junction.

I'd also transfer more of the Greater Anglia metro to London Overground - hertford east, looking at you.

(Of course, I'd also just transfer all metro services to London Overground, but those discussions have been done to death.)

 

[wobman]

Why does that matter? Creating a new depot shouldn't be any more difficult than putting a new noticeboard up.

Do you have much experience of opening a new toc depot ? If it was that easy wouldn't all tocs have numerous satellite depots dotted about there network.

 

[wobman]

If the Cardiff - Birmingham service terminated there and did not continue to Nottingham, I would agree that it should go to TfW Rail.

Otherwise, to avoid TfW having a near monopoly in Wales, maybe all cross-border services should be run by their English counterparts. So yes, Birmingham still with Cross Country. Likewise Bidston - Wrexham would indeed be MerseyRail (or 2nd choice Northern). However, Cheltenham and Taunton would move to Great Western, and Manchester - in line with other long-distance services there except Birmingham or London - to TransPennine. TransPennine would probably need to be renamed for including Scotland & Wales services, a very long way from the Pennines!

The tfw franchise is the Wales and Borders franchise, not as many believe the Wales franchise.

There's many flaws and logistical problems with these proposals, many of the Birmingham services go to Aberystwyth/ Pwllheli as the tourist traffic for mid Wales comes a lot from the Midlands. Atw had a phase of all changing at Salop that caused so many delays atw turned in to Always Terminte @ Wolves due to the constant delays.

Northern have no depot facilities close to the borderlands line, so units would have very long ECS moves daily. This reduces the drivers hours considerably as traincrew need to Pao from Manchester!
The most likely borderlands solution would be merseyrail in the ling term once battery 777s are viable but that has big political fall out as its thr new Nort Wales metro route. Tfw / Welsh and are investing big amounts into the route to unlock its potential.

 

[Caaardiff]

The tfw franchise is the Wales and Borders franchise, not as many believe the Wales franchise.

There's many flaws and logistical problems with these proposals, many of the Birmingham services go to Aberystwyth/ Pwllheli as the tourist traffic for mid Wales comes a lot from the Midlands. Atw had a phase of all changing at Salop that caused so many delays atw turned in to Always Terminte @ Wolves due to the constant delays.

The proposal was for Cardiff - Birmingham via Gloucester, replacing the current Cross Country Cardiff - Nottingham.

 

[Neptune]

Why does that matter? Creating a new depot shouldn't be any more difficult than putting a new noticeboard up.

You’ve obviously never been involved in creating a new Traincrew depot because if you had you would never have made that blasé assumption.

 

[mmh]

You’ve obviously never been involved in creating a new Traincrew depot because if you had you would never have made that blasé assumption.

Of course I haven't. If you do know what's involved, please share! What exactly is complicated about it?

 

[Neptune]

Of course I haven't. If you do know what's involved, please share! What exactly is complicated about it?

Lease/purchase of building(s) with adequate facilities such as offices, locker room, messroom, training rooms etc… that will most likely need refurbishing. Recruitment of staff including management, Traincrew (which will involve some form of route learning which isn’t an instant hit), cleaners and possibly also admin staff and supervisors. Creation of agreements for the location such as walking times and routes between the company and unions. That’s just for starters. There’s many other minor things too such as legalities.

So yes a little more complicated and time consuming than putting a noticeboard up (many of which will have to be put up of course).

 

[Efini92]

Lease/purchase of building(s) with adequate facilities such as offices, locker room, messroom, training rooms etc… that will most likely need refurbishing. Recruitment of staff including management, Traincrew (which will involve some form of route learning which isn’t an instant hit), cleaners and possibly also admin staff and supervisors. Creation of agreements for the location such as walking times and routes between the company and unions. That’s just for starters. There’s many other minor things too such as legalities.

So yes a little more complicated and time consuming than putting a noticeboard up (many of which will have to be put up of course).

You only have to look at the proposed avanti depot at Crewe to see how difficult it is.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I think quoting TfW as having a near Monopoly is a bit extreme. North Wales has Avanti, South Wales has GWR, Chester - Liverpool has Merseyrail, as well as an overlap from Runcorn into Liverpool with Avanti, Chester - Manchester & Crewe - Manchester has Northern, Shrewsbury - Birmingham has WMT. So handing over Cardiff - Birmingham (terminating) to TfW only makes it one line as a Monopoly. The majority of routes that TfW operate on alongside another operator is pretty much all the lines that has the demand for 2 operators. The rest of TfW's network doesn't have that level of demand.

If rail was regulated for the benefit of the passenger then Monopolies shouldn't be an issue. I'm sure there's several TOC's that have much more of a regional Monopoly than TfW has.

You do realise how much better XC are than TfW on that route?

XC run when TfW say they can't due to weather. We as locals who rely on these services want them to remain with XC!