First Greater Glasgow

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

There was a mention of the 2 and 3 getting Yutongs, not seen a source. I thought having less buses but double deckers would make more sense.

That’s because it does and is the answer at least in the short term.

 

[Volvodart]

There was a mention of the 2 and 3 getting Yutongs, not seen a source. I thought having less buses but double deckers would make more sense.

First would not replace single deckers with new double deckers until the full COVID recovery is known. Second hand double deckers might have been a possibility.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Yutongs make sense from a range point of view. They’ll be ideal for the 2 and 3. The E200EVs don’t have the range. I would say having a reduced frequency on the 2 may prove to be problematic as most workings are deckers with the odd E300 running around. The 2 is a busy route. Some Hydroliners would be good for the 2.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

First would not replace single deckers with new double deckers until the full COVID recovery is known. Second hand double deckers might have been a possibility.

Spot on. Same probably goes for most operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

The 2 is a busy route. Some Hydroliners would be good for the 2.

What's a Hydroliner?

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Spot on. Same probably goes for most operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==


What's a Hydroliner?

A Wright StreetDeck powered with hydrogen, not diesel.

 

[PaulMc7]

A Wright StreetDeck powered with hydrogen, not diesel.

I do wonder if hydrogen becomes an option for Glasgow anytime soon to be honest. The key thing is that Aberdeen and the use of hydrogen there will be a good tool of information for the viability of the buses.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I do wonder if hydrogen becomes an option for Glasgow anytime soon to be honest. The key thing is that Aberdeen and the use of hydrogen there will be a good tool of information for the viability of the buses.

I mean it would make sense from a capacity point of view and services within Glasgow are frequent enough to be able to merit them compared to somewhere like FSE.

 

[PaulMc7]

I mean it would make sense from a capacity point of view and services within Glasgow are frequent enough to be able to merit them compared to somewhere like FSE.

What is their capacity out of curiosity?

 

[Jordan Adam]

What is their capacity out of curiosity?

65 seats, 25 on the lower deck and 40 on the upper deck, it can be increased to 67 however Aberdeen's only have 4 seats on the back row of each deck.

I doubt Glasgow will go for Hydrogen at the moment though, it's significantly more expensive than battery electric, you have to keep in mind that the council in Aberdeen are very strong proponents of Hydrogen and i doubt without them First would be running Hydrogen buses here, in contrast Glasgow's council just don't seem that interested. In 5-10 years time i wouldn't rule it out however, particularly on longer routes and for coaches i see Hydrogen in the long term prevailing over electric as it overs great range and convenience and with time cost/infrastructure will improve

Yutongs make sense from a range point of view. They’ll be ideal for the 2 and 3. The E200EVs don’t have the range. I would say having a reduced frequency on the 2 may prove to be problematic as most workings are deckers with the odd E300 running around. The 2 is a busy route. Some Hydroliners would be good for the 2.

I'm sure most people here (and perhaps even First themselves) agree that the 2 should be decker operated and on a 10 minute frequency in "normal" times rather than 7-8 minutes. However given the current unpredictability and the poorer range it wouldn't make sense to buy BEV deckers for the 2. Doesn't nesserally mean the 2 is going to stay a single deck route permanently however, they could buy EV deckers for the 2 in a few years time and displace the single decks to another route.

 

[PaulMc7]

65 seats, 25 on the lower deck and 40 on the upper deck, it can be increased to 67 however Aberdeen's only have 4 seats on the back row of each deck.

I doubt Glasgow will go for Hydrogen at the moment though, it's significantly more expensive than battery electric, you have to keep in mind that the council in Aberdeen are very strong proponents of Hydrogen and i doubt without them First would be running Hydrogen buses here, in contrast Glasgow's council just don't seem that interested. In 5-10 years time i wouldn't rule it out however, particularly on longer routes and for coaches i see Hydrogen in the long term prevailing over electric as it overs great range and convenience and with time cost/infrastructure will improve

I'm sure most people here (and perhaps even First themselves) agree that the 2 should be decker operated and on a 10 minute frequency in "normal" times rather than 7-8 minutes. However given the current unpredictability and the poorer range it wouldn't make sense to buy BEV deckers for the 2. Doesn't nesserally mean the 2 is going to stay a single deck route permanently however, they could buy EV deckers for the 2 in a few years time and displace the single decks to another route.

Thank you for the information. To be fair Glasgow City Council don't really do much that helps buses other than a couple of bus gates at most. I could honestly see a lot of the key profit makers being every 15 mins with more double deckers including the 2.

One of the key things for me is loading time at stops. Passengers don't always help ofcourse but I find that the ticket machines are painfully slow compared to Mcgills and Stagecoach from experience. If that wasn't the case it would definitely help.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Regarding the range of electrics, my belief is that in service charging is the way forward. Most days there are 3 or 4 9/A buses in the central reservation of Buchanan Bus Station (BBS). If SPT can be persuaded to fit charging point at BBS and other big terminus such as Braehead, Easterhouse, Silverburn (unused taxi rank in the bus station), Govan etc.

This could nullify the range issues.

 

[PaulMc7]

Regarding the range of electrics, my belief is that in service charging is the way forward. Most days there are 3 or 4 9/A buses in the central reservation of Buchanan Bus Station (BBS). If SPT can be persuaded to fit charging point at BBS and other big terminus such as Braehead, Easterhouse, Silverburn (unused taxi rank in the bus station), Govan etc.

This could nullify the range issues.

The main issue with this is service reliability. If services were guaranteed to run on time it would work but in Glasgow there is no chance of that unless the council do loads to tackle car use. You'd also need more recovery time on routes meaning more drivers and right now that isn't possible.

In reality, we need the number of buses required across the network to drop a good 40-50 just to have no to little cancellations. In reality we need massive service changes to achieve this.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Regarding the range of electrics, my belief is that in service charging is the way forward. Most days there are 3 or 4 9/A buses in the central reservation of Buchanan Bus Station (BBS). If SPT can be persuaded to fit charging point at BBS and other big terminus such as Braehead, Easterhouse, Silverburn (unused taxi rank in the bus station), Govan etc.

This could nullify the range issues.

This was considered by First prior to placing the order for the BYDs, the main reason against it is that topping up the battery constantly will cause it to degrade faster, it's much better for the longevity of batteries to discharge down as much as possible and then recharge back up rather than constantly discharging down to 80% and then back up to 100% repeatedly all day.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

This was considered by First prior to placing the order for the BYDs, the main reason against it is that topping up the battery constantly will cause it to degrade faster, it's much better for the longevity of batteries to discharge down as much as possible and then recharge back up rather than constantly discharging down to 80% and then back up to 100% repeatedly all day.

See the degradation of batteries due to charging is highest when using high speed charging. If you use slower charging the degradation is a lot lower (simliar to opportunity charging buses/ battery trolley buses).

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

In Glasgow specifically trying to operate an electric double decker, for example on a 60, a full length route from 6am to 11:59pm, is unfeasible. Current models simply don’t have the electrical range if the vehicle is a plug-in overnight affair.

You could perhaps get around this by using Hydrogen powered vehicles, however the exorbitant cost of doing this for the time being would likely exceed the cost of ealier battery replacement due to Fast Opportunity Charging.

Hybrid-Diesels should’ve been a half way house for the last few years, but nope.

The 57s, perhaps even the 38 from Glasgow Fort to Newton Mearns will have issues like this. I'm not saying the problems are widespread, but using my judgement on what I’ve seen so far.

Jumping head first into a very shallow pool of water seems to be the methodology displayed in Glasgow with Electric Buses, a poor choice of business.

 

[ScotRail158725]

In Glasgow specifically trying to operate an electric double decker, for example on a 60, a full length route from 6am to 11:59pm, is unfeasible. Current models simply don’t have the electrical range if the vehicle is a plug-in overnight affair.

You could perhaps get around this by using Hydrogen powered vehicles, however the exorbitant cost of doing this for the time being would likely exceed the cost of ealier battery replacement due to Fast Opportunity Charging.

Hybrid-Diesels should’ve been a half way house for the last few years, but nope.

The 57s, perhaps even the 38 from Glasgow Fort to Newton Mearns will have issues like this. I'm not saying the problems are widespread, but using my judgement on what I’ve seen so far.

Jumping head first into a very shallow pool of water seems to be the methodology displayed in Glasgow with Electric Buses, a poor choice of business.

Some buses are out from 4-1 by the time they leave the depot empty and return back empty

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Some buses are out from 4-1 by the time they leave the depot empty and return back empty

4AM till 1AM the following morning?

Yes, I wrote the above times for illustration purposes of the amounts of hours that buses can be on the road.

 

[92002]

4AM till 1AM the following morning?

Yes, I wrote the above times for illustration purposes of the amounts of hours that buses can be on the road.

So a simple solution is to change the vehicle over halflway through the Day, or when it is running on low power at the depot. Then put it on charge. Which is what is done now.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

So a simple solution is to change the vehicle over halflway through the Day, or when it is running on low power at the depot. Then put it on charge. Which is what is done now.

Further adding to the logistics of the day to day operation of the depot when there are already not enough drivers to operate a full service on the road. Where do the extra drivers come from to change buses over?

 

[PaulMc7]

Further adding to the logistics of the day to day operation of the depot when there are already not enough drivers to operate a full service on the road. Where do the extra drivers come from to change buses over?

I fully agree with this. It would need a lot of extra drivers and even to cover current services a lot are still needed. I'd not be surprised if we seen more cuts before the SPT changes next month. Other than Dumbarton there seems to be issues everywhere else.

I do see a focus on peak times becoming something First do using part-time workers especially. Most services seem to hit their peak frequency earlier now but reduced off peak which from experience so far actually is working.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

So a simple solution is to change the vehicle over halflway through the Day, or when it is running on low power at the depot. Then put it on charge. Which is what is done now.

I think that's only logistically possible at the moment as buses are being run off into the garage throughout the day when there's no relief driver to carry on.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I’ve noticed more E400EVs on the 61 as of recent. It is an interesting one as Glasgow has never had an electric fleet before so I imagine it’ll be trial and error for First also.

The issue is - if routes can’t be run 100% electric then are First just hoping that hydrogen and electric become more advanced as the years go on by the time they have to replace the last of their diesels which will be a good few years now?

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm surprised that there wasn't one last massive diesel order this year to be honest. The only issue is how long it may have taken to get here given how busy Alexander Dennis will be with the electric order.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

I'm surprised that there wasn't one last massive diesel order this year to be honest. The only issue is how long it may have taken to get here given how busy Alexander Dennis will be with the electric order.

I don't think ADL were actively seeking or encouraging new orders for diesel engined buses last year. They seem to have thrown their lot in with BYD and don't need the ongoing warranty issues that being a chassis provider brings.

 

[Jarcoed]

Glad to see that the 34's are back and the 34A's are scrapped. It was confusing for many passengers when there was a 34 and a 34A if you were going to the hospital. there hasn't been a 34 only timetable since 2015 so this is nostalgic

 

[singlemalt]

Drivers have been offered double time for their days off; that should drastically improve services.

 

[PaulMc7]

Drivers have been offered double time for their days off; that should drastically improve services.

We would all like to hope so but I'd imagine conditions getting better would be the big thing that would give First the upper hand on everyone. It doesn't matter what industry if you get working conditions and staff morale into a good place you'll easily get staff.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Drivers have been offered double time for their days off; that should drastically improve services.

You’d like to hope. If i was getting offered double time for a day off i’d accept it based on the principle of why its being offered, if it was being offered because there was no staff because of a badly run company with management who’ve made it a bad working environment i’d certainly not be willing to take up the extra shifts

 

[PaulMc7]

I do feel sorry for drivers of the 2 and 3 in particular just now with how many sets of roadworks have occured in the last month or two. Scotstoun and Partick currently have roadworks and they don't always avoid them at Thornwood either because of the temporary lights onto South Street.

I was 40 mins from Kelvingrove Art Galleries to Scotstoun today on the 2.

Anyone know if anymore changes are expected soon? The website has all of the updated timetables currently in use now except the 57 as it's missing off of the 57A one on the main timetable page.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

You’d like to hope. If i was getting offered double time for a day off i’d accept it based on the principle of why its being offered, if it was being offered because there was no staff because of a badly run company with management who’ve made it a bad working environment i’d certainly not be willing to take up the extra shifts

If you felt that way towards your employers why on earth would you continue to work for them? There's plenty of companies out there looking for drivers - they can't all be bad.