Stagecoach West Scotland

[Scotrail314209]

In terms of adjusting the services to lower frequency or make smaller vehicle allocations, the 18 3 towns local service is frequent operated by Scania dockers when Solos would suffice, I've seen E200s struggle with loadings on the 585, and I've literally just passed an X36 in Beith (Ardrossan bound) with about 15 passengers - a healthy enough off peak snapshot for an E300. Their vehicle allocations haven't made much sense recently.

There’s been a few Enviro 400s on the 12 recently too.

I do think Enviro 300s would be a good shout for the X36 as that would just about cover the loadings and make them look busy, maybe doubles in the peak.

Re the 585, I hope that Stagecoach put more of the Scania Enviro 400s on once the X36 goes, even E300s struggle at times.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I too thought the X34/X36 withdrawal could be the perfect opportunity for McGill's. The existing route only requires three buses most of the day so it's not that significant of an increase for a company like McGill's and the potential benefits would surely outweigh the small risk. They could reroute it via Braehead as per the ClydeFlyer services offering onward connections, i'm surprised the X36 didn't already do this.

 

[sannox]

They could reroute it via Braehead as per the ClydeFlyer services offering onward connections, i'm surprised the X36 didn't already do this.

It did. They pulled it from Braehead due to traffic congestion.

 

[markymark2000]

It did. They pulled it from Braehead due to traffic congestion.

How did Stagecoach have a harder time with congestion than Mcgills are? McGills don't seem to be overly affected by it or are they just making passengers have quite a big penalty in their journey time to serve Braehead?

 

[Scotrail314209]

When the X36 stopped at Braehead, I didn't see anyone using it. People want it back, but I hardly saw anyone getting off there anyway.

Withdrawal of the Braehead stop also allowed the X36 to be put up to hourly as they withdrew the off-peak X34 and introduced an 8 minute turnaround in Glasgow.

It would be nice if the X36 stopped at Glasgow Airport, but one can dream.

 

[markymark2000]

It would be nice if the X36 stopped at Glasgow Airport, but one can dream.

To be fair, links to Glasgow Airport are dismal from the west. 2 buses to Glasgow and the 757. Otherwise, good luck getting to the Airport.

 

[Scotrail314209]

To be fair, links to Glasgow Airport are dismal from the west. 2 buses to Glasgow and the 757. Otherwise, good luck getting to the Airport.

A stop at Glasgow Airport might reprieve the X36 slightly too. I do see a fair few people boarding the train with luggage at Ayrshire stations and getting off at Paisley for the Airport.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Amidst all of the copy and paste "financial imperatives are still key" tweets, Stagecoach are actively promoting their competitors services by advising passengers to use the McGill's 904 from Beith to Johnstone, then take the train from there into Glasgow:

https://twitter.com/StagecoachWScot/status/1534901262759649282

Hi, You can use the McGills service 904 bus to Johnston station then continue to Glasgow on the train Hope this is helpful.

Notwithstanding the fact that this would almost double journey times, and it's not helpful to anyone entitled to free bus travel. I suppose there's the option of taking the 38 from Johnstone, but that would lengthen journey times even more.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Amidst all of the copy and paste "financial imperatives are still key" tweets, Stagecoach are actively promoting their competitors services by advising passengers to use the McGill's 904 from Beith to Johnstone, then take the train from there into Glasgow:

https://twitter.com/StagecoachWScot/status/1534901262759649282

Notwithstanding the fact that this would almost double journey times, and it's not helpful to anyone entitled to free bus travel. I suppose there's the option of taking the 38 from Johnstone, but that would lengthen journey times even more.

Stagecoach seem determined to ignore the view of the customer, and the petition that is currently doing the rounds (and has garnered nearly 2000 signatures!)

 

[overthewater]

What do you want them to do? If the routes are not covering their costs, and SPT will not pay for a replacement?

 

[PaulMc7]

Stagecoach seem determined to ignore the view of the customer, and the petition that is currently doing the rounds (and has garnered nearly 2000 signatures!)

Will petitions actually do anything though? They should in theory but they never ever seem to. Finances trump everything at the end of the day

 

[Christmas]

In the early days of the X36 and X34 they did go via Glasgow Airport but virtually nobody used it. The same with Braehead, it was only a handful of passengers per day and they were usually from the Garnock Valley.

It's terrible to think back to the huge Stagecoach network in North Ayrshire only 20 years ago and to see the damage done by years of cuts. The first mistake was axing proper coaches from the Glasgow express and replacing them service buses that could not compete in speed or comfort. These cuts suggest to me that Ardrossan depot could eventually close.

If McGill's does take on the Glasgow express routes then I think that it would only be successful if it ran from Largs to Glasgow via Kilbirnie and Beith. However they would have to miss out Johnstone and Paisley as they then cannot come close to competing with the train.

Dalry people tend to head into Irvine or Saltcoats for shopping and leisure, whereas Kilbirnie and Beith traditionally head the other direction, Johnstone, Paisley and Glasgow. I see a future for the 904 and an express.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's terrible to think back to the huge Stagecoach network in North Ayrshire only 20 years ago and to see the damage done by years of cuts. The first mistake was axing proper coaches from the Glasgow express and replacing them service buses that could not compete in speed or comfort. These cuts suggest to me that Ardrossan depot could eventually close.

Technically speaking the E400MMCs can legally go faster on the motorway than the coaches as they're under 12 metres and not tacho fitted. If they're anything like the examples Bluebird have from the same batch then 60MPH is really no bother. I agree with the point about comfort however.

 

[gingerheid]

The history of services from Largs to Glasgow over the hills is littered with many attempted innovations and many failures. There's been attempts at fast and slow buses to Braehead and fast and slow buses to Glasgow, and they have always finished up with... an hourly service to Paisley! Obviously I wish everywhere had amazing buses, but I kind of get it. The train is better. It's maybe not better for people with passes, but the honest truth of the matter is that enough of them will probably just go wherever else there is a bus to that a specific service for the ones with a reason to be somewhere in particular probably just isn't worth it

Stagecoach seem determined to ignore the view of the customer, and the petition that is currently doing the rounds (and has garnered nearly 2000 signatures!)

I suspect that if they all bought megariders instead of signing the petition they could have their bus!

 

[Scotrail314209]

Kenneth Gibsons response to the email of concern I sent off yesterday:

Dear ******,



Thank you for contacting me regarding the above. I too signed the petition.



I emailed Stagecoach yesterday but have yet to receive a response. They have been in ‘meetings’ all day!



Meanwhile, I raised this matter with the First Minister earlier this afternoon which included some of the concerns and important points you mention below.



Please see my question and her response here:

3.9K views · 60 reactions | FIRST MINISTER RESPONDS TO STAGECOACH PLANS TO WITHDRAW THE X34 and X36 This afternoon I raised the concerns of many constituents from the Garnock Valley and beyond following the decision of Stagecoach to withdraw these s

FIRST MINISTER RESPONDS TO STAGECOACH PLANS TO WITHDRAW THE X34 and X36 This afternoon I raised the concerns of many constituents from the Garnock Valley and beyond following the decision of...

www.facebook.com

I would expect Strathclyde Partnership for Transport and Stagecoach to work together as the First Minister suggests, to ensure these services are retained.

 

[Stan Drews]

Kenneth Gibsons response to the email of concern I sent off yesterday:

Perhaps you could ask Mr Gibson to detail the £88.2m that he suggests Stagecoach received in taxpayers money last year? I wonder how much of that was actually the payments from Transport Scotland on behalf of the pass holders that were carried free of charge, which isn’t a subsidy to Stagecoach, but to the card holders!

 

[overthewater]

Perhaps you could ask Mr Gibson to detail the £88.2m that he suggests Stagecoach received in taxpayers money last year? I wonder how much of that was actually the payments from Transport Scotland on behalf of the pass holders that were carried free of charge, which isn’t a subsidy to Stagecoach, but to the card holders!

I doubt Mr Gibson would understand that point, I bet he would rebuff that by saying Stagecoach will be getting even more money this year, Of course mainly due to the free travel for the under 22s. I bet that man never travelled on bus in his life.

At least the First minster knows about SPT, which is a blessing at least.

 

[sannox]

The history of services from Largs to Glasgow over the hills is littered with many attempted innovations and many failures. There's been attempts at fast and slow buses to Braehead and fast and slow buses to Glasgow, and they have always finished up with... an hourly service to Paisley!

Indeed the slow service to Glasgow via Paisley was the more established one back to Western and Clydeside days. Only recently they cut it to Paisley although at times it was cut out of Largs to Kilbirnie and Beith.

If McGill's does take on the Glasgow express routes then I think that it would only be successful if it ran from Largs to Glasgow via Kilbirnie and Beith. However they would have to miss out Johnstone and Paisley as they then cannot come close to competing with the train.

I had a look to see if it was possible to do an hourly service with 2 buses from Glasgow to Kilbirnie with express from Johnstone. It really is too tight. Not sure they'd want to run another service to Largs.

I'm not sure anyone will want to run to Ardrossan etc.

 

[gingerheid]

I feel this is an appropriate place to suggest that in any case the correct solution to this problem is a couple of rail re-openings (Or of course high quality bus links to the nearby stations as part of a properly integrated public transport network, which is of course less realistic than re-opening both the Dalry & North Johnstone line and the Beith branch)

 

[adrock1976]

The X28 cut I actually get although it just hands customers to First if you are going to Condorrat and Mollinsburn but it seems really bizarre to cut services from Glasgow to seaside towns with beaches especially in the middle of summer when the trains are having all sorts of issues

First could quite easily reroute the X3 via Greenfaulds to cover for the loss of the Stagecoach X28 without actually needing to increase vehicle requirements as the X3 gets nearly 30 minutes of layover combined per round trip. I highly doubt they will, but it just seems such a glaringly obvious opportunity for them.

I'm more surprised that Stagecoach didn't try to combine the X25 and X28 together and have instead opted to axe the X28 entirely.

Pre pandemic, there were buses to and from Glasgow from both the North Ring and South Ring (timing points Morar Drive and Etive Drive respectively) in Condorrat.

Post March 2020, both the Larbert First (X36/37) and the Stagecoach (Ayr) X28 have ran via the South Ring. The North Ring (where the shops are, and is also the part of the settlement that predates the New Town of Cumbernauld, hence how it becomes Main Road and the pavements there are not segregated from motorised traffic) has not had a direct bus to or from Glasgow since the pandemic began, which it has always had even before 1955 when Cumbernauld became Scotland's third New Town (behind East Kilbride (1947) and Glenrothes (1948).

Back in the days of the former First Glasgow/KCB X2/X4/X5 and before the Hornshill - Haggs section of the M80 was built in 2010/11, the buses ran via Royal Infirmary, M80 1992 section (M8 Jct 13/Provan Road - Hornshill), Crowwood, A80 to Mollinsburn, then one route ran via the South Ring with the other running via the North Ring, then A8011 Glasgow Road, then either via Greenfaulds Road and South Carbrain Road to Kildrum Roundabout, or via Town Centre (or Seafar Road and Kildrum Road) and Lye Brae, then onwards to Abronhill.

Presently, the X25 and X25A runs to Abronhill via Royal Infirmary, M80 to Low Wood (Jct 4A), A8011 Glasgow Road, then either via Town Centre (X25) or North Carbrain Road (X25A), then Kildrum Road, Cumbernauld Station, then onwards to Abronhill. As the Glasgow side of the Town Centre (Town Centre South) can be accessed from North Carbrain Road, the X25 could easily be routed via Seafar Road to compensate (as the X28 is/was the only bus during the daytime to serve that road), as the Dunfermline part of Stagecoach already has buses from the Town Centre (Central Way) to and from Glasgow via Royal Infirmary, M80 to Low Wood (Jct 4A), and A8011 Glasgow Road, and Abronhill - Town Centre (Central Way) already has the Canavan 45.

I would like to mention that North Lanarkshire Council has a blueprint for the existing Town Centre to be demolished and rebuilt during the next five to ten years, which may or may not affect the routings of the bus services.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Presently, the X25 and X25A runs to Abronhill via Royal Infirmary, M80 to Low Wood (Jct 4A), A8011 Glasgow Road, then either via Town Centre (X25) or North Carbrain Road (X25A), then Kildrum Road, Cumbernauld Station, then onwards to Abronhill. As the Glasgow side of the Town Centre (Town Centre South) can be accessed from North Carbrain Road, the X25 could easily be routed via Seafar Road to compensate (as the X28 is/was the only bus during the daytime to serve that road), as the Dunfermline part of Stagecoach already has buses from the Town Centre (Central Way) to and from Glasgow via Royal Infirmary, M80 to Low Wood (Jct 4A), and A8011 Glasgow Road, and Abronhill - Town Centre (Central Way) already has the Canavan 45.

The main issue with the X28 cut that I've been seeing floating around is that the present X25 service is already extremely busy in the mornings, surely an X28 cut would worsen the crowding?

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I too thought the X34/X36 withdrawal could be the perfect opportunity for McGill's. The existing route only requires three buses most of the day so it's not that significant of an increase for a company like McGill's and the potential benefits would surely outweigh the small risk. They could reroute it via Braehead as per the ClydeFlyer services offering onward connections, i'm surprised the X36 didn't already do this.

There’s no revenue there. Why do you think McGills own agenda is to seek drivers for coaches & sightseeing? If Stagecoach won’t operate it McGills won’t either.

What we are now seeing across multiple companies is them cutting loss makers and also so they can prioritise what drivers they have left onto their profitable routes. We are indirectly seeing the true nature at these firms.

What I mean by this is that we have seen what may appear to be naivety on many companies' approach in thinking they would have plenty of employees and that at the end of COVID there would be no problems. However, I quite believe they knew they wouldn’t have the drivers and simply it’s funding that’s running out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2022 ==

The main issue with the X28 cut that I've been seeing floating around is that the present X25 service is already extremely busy in the mornings, surely an X28 cut would worsen the crowding?

No.

The x28 services Seafar, Greenfaulds & Condorrat South Ring Rd, the x25s do not.

 

[markymark2000]

There’s no revenue there, why do you think McGills own agenda is to seek drivers for coaches & sightseeing, if stagecoach won’t operate it mcgills won’t either.

What is to say that McGills haven't simply just found attractive new revenue streams? Doesn't mean that there is no money there. McGills already had their coaches for some contracts and that side of the business has just grown, as with many coach companies, work has increased due to the reduced amount of coach companies.
As for Sightseeing, they are putting a bit of focus onto the leisure market which is a growing sector. Why not expand some parts of the business if there is a gap in the market.

No.

The x28 services Seafar, Greenfaulds & Condorrat South Ring Rd, the x25s do not.

If the X28 no longer exists though, some people may travel into Cumbernauld town centre though to catch the X25 so it will increase patronage on the X25.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

The history of services from Largs to Glasgow over the hills is littered with many attempted innovations and many failures. There's been attempts at fast and slow buses to Braehead and fast and slow buses to Glasgow, and they have always finished up with... an hourly service to Paisley! Obviously I wish everywhere had amazing buses, but I kind of get it. The train is better. It's maybe not better for people with passes, but the honest truth of the matter is that enough of them will probably just go wherever else there is a bus to that a specific service for the ones with a reason to be somewhere in particular probably just isn't worth it.

Being a Largs resident I can assure you for us the train is absolutely and utterly abysmal. An hourly service, horrifically expensive, takes an hour to get to Glasgow, is frequently cancelled in anything approaching "high winds" and that's not getting started on the current "emergency timetable". For the best part of 6 months there was no Sunday service. I think if McGills put an hourly Citaro express to Glasgow it would do OK. The 904 loadings are very decent and now have their own route branded Citaros.

Harte Buses had a very successful Braehead Express but the reasons behind their withdrawal were a little more, if the stories were to be believed, related to the threats of a rival operator.

I'm aware I'm straying off topic but someone mentioned the future of Arsrossan depot and depressingly I agree. The 585 can be run from Ayr, the 11 from Kilmarnock, and the 12 and 18 can be abandoned to Shuttle Buses...

 

[Scotrail314209]

Being a Largs resident I can assure you for us the train is absolutely and utterly abysmal. An hourly service, horrifically expensive, takes an hour to get to Glasgow, is frequently cancelled in anything approaching "high winds" and that's not getting started on the current "emergency timetable". For the best part of 6 months there was no Sunday service. I think if McGills put an hourly Citaro express to Glasgow it would do OK. The 904 loadings are very decent and now have their own route branded Citaros.

Harte Buses had a very successful Braehead Express but the reasons behind their withdrawal were a little more, if the stories were to be believed, related to the threats of a rival operator.

I'm aware I'm straying off topic but someone mentioned the future of Arsrossan depot and depressingly I agree. The 585 can be run from Ayr, the 11 from Kilmarnock, and the 12 and 18 can be abandoned to Shuttle Buses...

I recall the Harte Buses Braehead Express. Took it by mistake with my grandmother many moons ago when we wanted to get back to Paisley.

I can definitely see Ardrossan being binned off in favour of it being made into an outstation. I can't particularly see the 12 or 18 services going over to Shuttle Buses, as they may not have enough vehicles to cover the runs. The others I agree with.

If the 904 is doing relatively successful, then I think it's fair to think that McGills may take a shot of running the X36 under the ClydeFlyer banner.

The x28 services Seafar, Greenfaulds & Condorrat South Ring Rd, the x25s do not.

So what will people do as an alternate? Take to the car?

Just because it doesn't serve those areas doesn't mean that people won't make their way to the nearest X25 stop.

 

[overthewater]

So what will people do as an alternate? Take to the car?

Just because it doesn't serve those areas doesn't mean that people won't make their way to the nearest X25 stop.

Greenfaulds & Condorrat South Ring Rd still have First bus service with direct links to Glasgow. Seafar still has a few SPT services.

 

[gingerheid]

Being a Largs resident I can assure you for us the train is absolutely and utterly abysmal. An hourly service, horrifically expensive, takes an hour to get to Glasgow, is frequently cancelled in anything approaching "high winds" and that's not getting started on the current "emergency timetable". For the best part of 6 months there was no Sunday service. I think if McGills put an hourly Citaro express to Glasgow it would do OK. The 904 loadings are very decent and now have their own route branded Citaros.

I escaped before the non-waterproof trains arrived so I did see the better side of the railway, in the good old days when if you didn't want to get wet at Saltcoats you held the window shut

Harte Buses had a very successful Braehead Express but the reasons behind their withdrawal were a little more, if the stories were to be believed, related to the threats of a rival operator.

I recall a number of reasons, including that the Largs - Braehead service used some very novel vehicles that turned out to be unreliable and difficult to source parts for, and... I word these two entirely separate things very carefully and entirely separately as it appears that there was never any legally repeatable suggestion that the company was involved in any wrongdoing at all whatsoever: both that there was some kind of dispute whereby SPT declined to hand over concession pass money, and also that this also happened: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24468667

Three bus drivers who took part in a bogus travel pass fraud have each been jailed for six months.

Peter Fitzpatrick, 46, James McFeeley, 36, of Greenock, and Mark Phillips, 41, of Gourock, used lost or stolen cards issued to elderly and disabled people.

An earlier hearing was told that the misuse of the National Bus Travel Concession Scheme netted £14,000.

The drivers worked in Largs for Harte Buses of Greenock when the cash was claimed from Transport Scotland.

The circumstances did of course lead to discussion regarding the role of the company and allegations concerning it, but it should be stressed that it was not the company that was on trial so no findings were made in this regard.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=8c6695a6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

The third appellant handed over 3 cards, and told the Transport Scotland staff that he had got them in the company office, and had been asked to “put a couple of extra ones through”.

(b) Bus passengers: Seven of the bus passengers whose lost or stolen cards were used on the Harte Buses route gave evidence. Each confirmed having lost his or her card and having received a replacement card. Each denied ever travelling on a Harte bus.

(c) Robin Harte of Harte Buses: Mr Robin Harte, one of the two brothers who owned the bus company, gave evidence. The sheriff noted at pages 36-37 of the first appellant’s stated case:

“… The only witness whose credibility and reliability gave me cause to doubt was a Robin Harte who claimed to have worked for his brother’s limited company. He confirmed the company had ceased trading in May 2012, but was vague as to his own specific job title and duties.

Initially on examination in chief, he stated he had questioned all 3 drivers about scanning cards when the passenger was not present, but on re-examination stated he had got it wrong, and had not questioned the drivers, nor had he been given any explanation.

He accepted that lost cards should have been returned to Transport Scotland instead of being kept in the office. He claimed to have little knowledge of the concessionary travel scheme, or of the payments received from Transport Scotland which he said were a matter for his brother Peter from whom we did not hear.

He conceded that the 3 appellants were the company’s main drivers, but later was inconsistent, stating that Mr J McFeeley [the second appellant] spent more time in the garage as a mechanic. In November 2010 he stated the main drivers were Peter Fitzpatrick [the first appellant], Stewart Crichton, and Mark Phillips [the third appellant].

All in all he was extremely shifty and evasive, and eager to avoid being pinned [down] in any way whatsoever. I could place no reliance on any aspect of his evidence which was clearly tailored to principally exculpate him in any wrong doing …”

(This is of course a different situation to that of the operator of the Largs local service "Orion Autobus" in relation to a similar fraud over much the same period, where it was the owner of the company that was convicted of fraud.)

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I recall the Harte Buses Braehead Express. Took it by mistake with my grandmother many moons ago when we wanted to get back to Paisley.

I can definitely see Ardrossan being binned off in favour of it being made into an outstation. I can't particularly see the 12 or 18 services going over to Shuttle Buses, as they may not have enough vehicles to cover the runs. The others I agree with.

If the 904 is doing relatively successful, then I think it's fair to think that McGills may take a shot of running the X36 under the ClydeFlyer banner.

So what will people do as an alternate? Take to the car?

Just because it doesn't serve those areas doesn't mean that people won't make their way to the nearest X25 stop.

Certainly they could walk and take the bus.

Just walking an extra wee bit is ok if there was faith that after looking at a timetable you could show and so would the bus.

Not quite too reliable now in any case, on any route.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

I recall a number of reasons, including that the Largs - Braehead service used some very novel vehicles that turned out to be unreliable and difficult to source parts for, and... I word these two entirely separate things very carefully and entirely separately as it appears that there was never any legally repeatable suggestion that the company was involved in any wrongdoing at all whatsoever: both that there was some kind of dispute whereby SPT declined to hand over concession pass I recall a number of reasons, including that the Largs - Braehead service used some very novel vehicles that turned out to be unreliable and difficult to source parts for, and... I word these two entirely separate things very carefully and entirely separately as it appears that there was never any legally repeatable suggestion that the company was involved in any wrongdoing at all whatsoever: both that there was some kind of dispute whereby SPT declined to hand over concession pass money, and also that this also happened: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24468667

That had completely escaped my memory! Now that you post that link I remember the pocketing of concessionary fares. Harte also didn't have a depot by that time, parking it's buses in the container yard at Greenock port, and had 2 Citaros and that weird MAN/Fast Syter thing.

As for Shuttle Buses not having enough vehicles to take on the 3 towns locals, the PVR would be 6 and they have 5 electric buses coming, they'd be close without losing the trade ins. The 12 used to run every 20 mins, it's now every 40, and it's going the same way the Kilwinning locals went before Stagecoach binned them.

 

[ChrisC]

Exactly 3 years ago I stayed for a week in the Station Hotel in Dumfries and travelled around Dumfries and Galloway using a Stagecoach 7 Day Megarider Ticket. Great value and a good way to explore the region by bus. It’s something I was intending doing again but the cuts in Stagecoach services makes this far less attractive and potentially quite expensive if you have to begin travelling on buses operated by numerous small companies. With the very reduced timetable on the 500 between Dumfries and Stranraer and the changes in operator of the 502A to Kircudbright it will make travel beyond Castle Dougla quite limited without paying for additional tickets. There used to be a multi operator day ticket called the Dumfries and Galloway Discovery Ticket but I can’t find that advertised anywhere so presume it no longer is available. Sadly I don’t think I will now be returning later this year as originally planned.