Sundays - back to the traditional?

[ainsworth74]

Church music is more soothing to the ears than the hits being blasted out of the supermarket speakers...

Well now I think you must be trolling if that's the best argument you can make!

 

[Philip]

Well now I think you must be trolling if that's the best argument you can make!

There are other arguments I have but I feel it would be better to keep them to myself.

 

[DarloRich]

There are other arguments I have but I feel it would be better to keep them to myself.

they cant be that strong then!

How can you hope to meet your conversion goals if you cant even advance your arguments in a safe place where only mild criticism will be allowed?

 

[NSEFAN]

Church music is more soothing to the ears than the hits being blasted out of the supermarket speakers...

Agreed! Fortunately one can enjoy this from the comfort of their own home, thanks to YouTube.

 

[Philip]

they cant be that strong then!

How can you hope to meet your conversion goals if you cant even advance your arguments in a safe place where only mild criticism will be allowed?

Well if you insist... I think if, as a country, we had deeper faith and observance and if we were less secular as a society then there'd be greater respect between people and possibly less antisocial behavior and crime. I will add that I'm not in any way saying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly, but with more people attending worship and having a non-extreme faith, then perhaps less people will turn to crime and more will seek to try to live a good life. I think that's a fairly reasonable judgement to make.

 

[NSEFAN]

Well if you insist... I think if, as a country, we had deeper faith and observance and if we were less secular as a society then there'd be greater respect between people and possibly less antisocial behavior and crime. I will add that I'm not in any way saying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly, but with more people attending worship and having a non-extreme faith, then perhaps less people will turn to crime and more will seek to try to live a good life. I think that's a fairly reasonable judgement to make.

A sense of community is important. Historically this has centred around a faith (once upon a time almost all of life was centred around a calendar of religious festivals), but it doesn’t need to be religious. The way people live has changed, and a lot of the historic societal functions of the church have been superseded (for example, schools).

 

[deltic]

Well if you insist... I think if, as a country, we had deeper faith and observance and if we were less secular as a society then there'd be greater respect between people and possibly less antisocial behavior and crime. I will add that I'm not in any way saying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly, but with more people attending worship and having a non-extreme faith, then perhaps less people will turn to crime and more will seek to try to live a good life. I think that's a fairly reasonable judgement to make.

Sadly I'm not sure there is much evidence to support that point of view. The USA being the obvious counter example.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well if you insist... I think if, as a country, we had deeper faith and observance and if we were less secular as a society then there'd be greater respect between people and possibly less antisocial behavior and crime. I will add that I'm not in any way saying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly, but with more people attending worship and having a non-extreme faith, then perhaps less people will turn to crime and more will seek to try to live a good life. I think that's a fairly reasonable judgement to make.

Its been my observation that zealous religious beliefs are way more secular than those who choose not to worship a deity. In my opinion it is far better to let each other believe what they will without predudice, so long as those beliefs do not negatively impact others. If you enjoy going to church on a Sunday then that's great, personally I will be more likely up on a Moor somewhere enjoying the fresh air, and looking forward to a pub lunch and a pint.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it not the case that whilst Sundays are now a day when places of retail trade are allowed to open, that a stated reduced hours maximum times of opening still applies?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it not the case that whilst Sundays are now a day when places of retail trade are allowed to open, that a stated reduced hours maximum times of opening still applies?

Essentially, in England & Wales, the majority of large shops (such as supermarkets - there are, however, some exemptions) can only trade for up to six hours continuously during the eight hour period between 10.00 a.m. and 6.00 p.m., this on a Sunday.

A "large" shop is deemed to be one with a floor area of more than 3000 sq. feet (= 280 sq. metres).

Some retail outlets allow a brief "browsing period" of maybe 30 minutes before the tills are open to take sales.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is it not the case that whilst Sundays are now a day when places of retail trade are allowed to open, that a stated reduced hours maximum times of opening still applies?

It applies to some retail places over a certain size (I forget the exact details). So a large supermarket can only open for 6 hours, whereas a smaller "metro" store can open as they please.

Edit: @Mcr Warrior beat me to it.

 

[Chew Chew]

Believe so, this was particularly prevalent in the Western Isles, in places such as Harris and Lewis. Until fairly recently, there were no ferries operating up there on a Sunday and hardly anywhere open for business or trading.

They used to tie up the swings in the play parks so the kids couldn't use them.

Mental Wee Frees.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well if you insist... I think if, as a country, we had deeper faith and observance and if we were less secular as a society then there'd be greater respect between people and possibly less antisocial behavior and crime. I will add that I'm not in any way saying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly, but with more people attending worship and having a non-extreme faith, then perhaps less people will turn to crime and more will seek to try to live a good life. I think that's a fairly reasonable judgement to make.

You are however implying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly- that's an unavoidable outcome of the argument you make. Simply declaring that you aren't suggesting it doesn't remove that inherent implication. If increased faith means less crime, then by definition decreased faith would mean more crime. If that isn't your intention, don't use that argument.

 

[Philip]

You are however implying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly- that's an unavoidable outcome of the argument you make. Simply declaring that you aren't suggesting it doesn't remove that inherent implication. If increased faith means less crime, then by definition decreased faith would mean more crime. If that isn't your intention, don't use that argument.

Well to be honest I think it's a valid conclusion to come to and fairly logical, because one of the main points of attending worship, at least in Catholic churches (I can't speak for the other denominations), is to examine your conscience; say the act of contrition and then listen to the scriptures followed the priest in his homily explaining to us how to try to live better lives in the week ahead. If people listen to this and try to act on it then obviously it helps over not being being there and hearing the words.

 

[Chew Chew]

Well to be honest I think it's a valid conclusion to come to and fairly logical, because one of the main points of attending worship, at least in Catholic churches, is to examine your conscience; say the act of contrition and then listen to the scriptures followed the priest in his homily explaining to us how to try to live better lives in the week ahead. If people listen to this and try to act on it then obviously it helps over not being being there and hearing the words.

Surely to God, pardon the pun, you're not going to give the example of the Catholic church with what they've been caught up in over the years as a way of reducing crime?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Essentially, in England & Wales, the majority of large shops (such as supermarkets - there are, however, some exemptions) can only trade for up to six hours continuously during the eight hour period between 10.00 a.m. and 6.00 p.m., this on a Sunday.

A "large" shop is deemed to be one with a floor area of more than 3000 sq. feet (= 280 sq. metres).

Some retail outlets allow a brief "browsing period" of maybe 30 minutes before the tills are open to take sales.

Though perhaps bizarrely in Scotland, traditionally more religious, there is no such rule, though shops tend to keep slightly shorter hours by choice.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well if you insist... I think if, as a country, we had deeper faith and observance and if we were less secular as a society then there'd be greater respect between people and possibly less antisocial behavior and crime. I will add that I'm not in any way saying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly, but with more people attending worship and having a non-extreme faith, then perhaps less people will turn to crime and more will seek to try to live a good life. I think that's a fairly reasonable judgement to make.

That may well be the case, or it may not. Unfortunately most people believe God isn't real, and while religion certainly gives some people structure and purpose, asking people to believe in something which is not true for some specious benefit is a non-starter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2022 ==

Its been my observation that zealous religious beliefs are way more secular than those who choose not to worship a deity. In my opinion it is far better to let each other believe what they will without predudice, so long as those beliefs do not negatively impact others. If you enjoy going to church on a Sunday then that's great, personally I will be more likely up on a Moor somewhere enjoying the fresh air, and looking forward to a pub lunch and a pint.

Indeed. If more people went hill walking and had a pub lunch with friends on a Sunday, you'd probably also have a happier society! But of course each unto their own, none of us can try to dictate what others do with their free time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2022 ==

You are however implying that non-religious people are more prone to behaving badly- that's an unavoidable outcome of the argument you make. Simply declaring that you aren't suggesting it doesn't remove that inherent implication. If increased faith means less crime, then by definition decreased faith would mean more crime. If that isn't your intention, don't use that argument.

It's also not a good argument anyway. I live in Woolwich which has a high level of religious observance, mostly because of immigrants who retain much of their culture. Woolwich is also an area of very high violent crime. I would suggest that poverty - both of material things and of expectation - is the first thing that needs to change round where I live.

 

[43096]

Well to be honest I think it's a valid conclusion to come to and fairly logical, because one of the main points of attending worship, at least in Catholic churches (I can't speak for the other denominations), is to examine your conscience; say the act of contrition and then listen to the scriptures followed the priest in his homily explaining to us how to try to live better lives in the week ahead. If people listen to this and try to act on it then obviously it helps over not being being there and hearing the words.

Ah yes, the Catholic Church. That hiding place for paedophiles which then covers it up, victimises the victims and generally helps the perpetrators evade justice. Not much examining of conscience going on in that squalid organisation, it would seem.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well to be honest I think it's a valid conclusion to come to and fairly logical, because one of the main points of attending worship, at least in Catholic churches (I can't speak for the other denominations), is to examine your conscience; say the act of contrition and then listen to the scriptures followed the priest in his homily explaining to us how to try to live better lives in the week ahead. If people listen to this and try to act on it then obviously it helps over not being being there and hearing the words.

The Catholic Church during the WWII Holocaust...

"We didn't see anything...."

The Catholic Church when widespread abuse of children was revealed...

"We didn't see anything..."

The Catholic Church on dealing with people who have done wrong...

"Go to confession, say a few Hail Marys and the jobs a good 'un..."

Seriously the Catholic Church is in no position to lecture anyone else on conscience.

And for the record I consider myself Pagan. I respect the world around me, the people around me, and the right for people to find peace with themselves and others however they will, just so long as it harms no one else.

Indeed. If more people went hill walking and had a pub lunch with friends on a Sunday, you'd probably also have a happier society! But of course each unto their own, none of us can try to dictate what others do with their free time.

Totally, to each to their own.

 

[Philip]

Surely to God, pardon the pun, you're not going to give the example of the Catholic church with what they've been caught up in over the years as a way of reducing crime?

Ah yes, the Catholic Church. That hiding place for paedophiles which then covers it up, victimises the victims and generally helps the perpetrators evade justice. Not much examining of conscience going on in that squalid organisation, it would seem.

To use a similar apology, that's like pouring scorn over an excellent TV programme because it was made by the BBC.

Some of the crimes in the Catholic Church have been appalling and the subsequent cover up wasn't much better, but it is irrelevant to faith or in relation to attending Mass or any kind of worship and the benefit people gain from that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To use a similar apology, that's like pouring scorn over an excellent TV programme because it was made by the BBC.

Some of the crimes in the Catholic Church have been appalling and the subsequent cover up wasn't much better, but it is irrelevant to faith or in relation to attending Mass or any kind of worship and the benefit people gain from that.

The crimes of individual members of the church is one thing... the cover-up and subsequent allowance for these crimes to continue is another matter altogether. The sorts of people who want to do those things are likely to want to gain positions of trust/power/influence- but if they become a teacher then get caught, they are no longer allowed to be a teacher. If they're a priest they just get moved to another parish.

I'm sorry, but the scandal over the Catholic Church's handling of these individuals in their ranks absolutely does make their position as a moral example for the rest of us untenable. You have every right to believe what you believe, but please don't use the Catholic Church as an example of the good that Christianity brings. It does not support your assertion that increased faith is a good thing for society.

 

[oxfordray1]

Some of the crimes in the Catholic Church have been appalling and the subsequent cover up wasn't much better, but it is irrelevant to faith or in relation to attending Mass or any kind of worship and the benefit people gain from that.

How on earth is it irrelevant? What an absurd suggestion. I would say it could hardly be more relevant. Continuing to uncritically attend Mass every Sunday is an endorsement of the actions and denials of the Catholic Church throughout the entire scandal.

Before you say it is irrelevant I suggest you consider the victims of such vile crimes. Pehaps read the detailed inquiry reports of Downside Abbey. Or Ampleforth Abbey. Or Fort Augustus Abbey.

 

[Chew Chew]

How on earth is it irrelevant? What an absurd suggestion. I would say it could hardly be more relevant. Continuing to uncritically attend Mass every Sunday is an endorsement of the actions and denials of the Catholic Church throughout the entire scandal.

Before you say it is irrelevant I suggest you consider the victims of such vile crimes. Pehaps read the detailed inquiry reports of Downside Abbey. Or Ampleforth Abbey. Or Fort Augustus Abbey.

He'll claim they are irrelevant because he doesn't want to accept that they are relevant.

 

[43096]

To use a similar apology, that's like pouring scorn over an excellent TV programme because it was made by the BBC.

Are you seriously comparing an opinion of TV programme makers with the serious crimes of church officials (that were the subject of attempted cover ups that go right to the very top of the church)?

You’re not being much of an advert for religion with this line of debate, are you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

He'll claim they are irrelevant because he doesn't want to accept that they are relevant.

Do I take it that no other religion (or sect) has ever been involved in such matters?

 

[Philip]

How on earth is it irrelevant? What an absurd suggestion. I would say it could hardly be more relevant. Continuing to uncritically attend Mass every Sunday is an endorsement of the actions and denials of the Catholic Church throughout the entire scandal.

Before you say it is irrelevant I suggest you consider the victims of such vile crimes. Pehaps read the detailed inquiry reports of Downside Abbey. Or Ampleforth Abbey. Or Fort Augustus Abbey.

Well sorry to disappoint you, but I do continue to uncritically attend Mass every week despite past failures of the church - and have no shame in doing so. There is no link or relevance to crimes which have been committed in the past by individuals who weren't even priests, rather fraud priests looking for a way into a position of trust and influence. And I will add that these abusers are still very much in the minority, it is sad that good clergy get tarnished with the same brush. Lessons have also been learned in this country at least; the Church in England and Wales now have strict and stringent safeguarding measures in place and go to great lengths to ensure that no repeat of the cover up scandal will happen again.

People who continue to bring this subject up at the mere mention of the Catholic church have nothing original to say and are just looking for ways to pour scorn, because they can't accept or don't have the decency to acknowledge the amount of good the church is doing across the world.

 

[Chew Chew]

Do I take it that no other religion (or sect) has ever been involved in such matters?

Absolutely not.

But he is the one who brought the Catholic church into it.

 

[43096]

People who continue to bring this subject up at the mere mention of the Catholic church have nothing original to say and are just looking for ways to pour scorn, because they can't accept or don't have the decency to acknowledge the amount of good the church is doing across the world.

Yes, let’s sweep all the crimes under the carpet. You’re just trying to deflect from a very inconvenient truth.

To those of us not brainwashed by the church’s teachings, there is a fundamental hypocrisy of an organisation preaching (literally) about living wholesome lives whilst those same preachers have in many cases been carrying out some of the most disgusting crimes, aggravated by being in a position of trust.

 

[Runningaround]

What I'm saying is that with more people having to work on Sundays and with more shops and events 'open', people who previously attended worship regularly on Sundays are finding less time to do so now, so this will inevitably mean reduced numbers in congregations and unfortunately some people who stop practising their faith then find they begin to lose their faith altogether or that it weakens to agnostic level (again not everyone).

Probably! Sundays before sports events, pub opening and home entertainment were so dull that they pushed people into Churches as they were so bored at home. The only time a church got busy in the latter part of the last century was when Songs of Praise or S4C's equivalent turned up and people wanted to get on telly.
I think it's far better people can choose what they do each day religion and employers seemed to control every aspect of life even what you did your one day off.

 

[ComUtoR]

People who continue to bring this subject up at the mere mention of the Catholic church have nothing original to say and are just looking for ways to pour scorn, because they can't accept or don't have the decency to acknowledge the amount of good the church is doing across the world.

What about the current views on Women or homosexuality ? Yes, they can do good and on a worldwide scale too but Christ on a bike, they do a lot of evil too.