South eastern key card left behind.

[FedUpWithSE]

Hi all.

I forgot my southeastern key card 3 weeks ago whilst travelling from Marden to London Cannon St on an off peak day ticket.
I had the app on my phone where I could show the ticket purchase and reference. showing this to the ticket desk, the guy said he couldn’t do anything with it and said speak to the train conductor ass soon as I got on. I followed this advice and the conductor was very understanding but said that their mobile terminals can do nothing to confirm the ticket and let me stay on till the destination. At which point I had to deal with a very rude revenue inspector, kept my cool expecting that I would get a penalty notice and apply to appeal. Previously this has been fine for a season ticket as long as it was only once or twice in a 12mth period.

just got 1st refusal back from penaltyservices.co.uk. After explaining in my appeal that neither the ticket desk or guard, stopped or advised me to not get on or continue the journey. Including screenshots showing the ticket reference.

just asking is there any chance at 2nd appeal or am I wasting my time?

thanks for any advice.

 

[Nova1]

Sounds like the train conductor allowed you to travel without a valid ticket

 

[Watershed]

Hi all.

I forgot my southeastern key card 3 weeks ago whilst travelling from Marden to London Cannon St on an off peak day ticket.
I had the app on my phone where I could show the ticket purchase and reference. showing this to the ticket desk, the guy said he couldn’t do anything with it and said speak to the train conductor ass soon as I got on. I followed this advice and the conductor was very understanding but said that their mobile terminals can do nothing to confirm the ticket and let me stay on till the destination. At which point I had to deal with a very rude revenue inspector, kept my cool expecting that I would get a penalty notice and apply to appeal. Previously this has been fine for a season ticket as long as it was only once or twice in a 12mth period.

just got 1st refusal back from penaltyservices.co.uk. After explaining in my appeal that neither the ticket desk or guard, stopped or advised me to not get on or continue the journey. Including screenshots showing the ticket reference.

just asking is there any chance at 2nd appeal or am I wasting my time?

thanks for any advice.

It sounds like you have been issued with a Penalty Fare. Is this correct, and if so, how much does it say you owe?

Did you raise an appeal with Penalty Services within 21 days of being issued with your Penalty Fare?

 

[FedUpWithSE]

Yes. Double the single fair so £47.60.

the appeal was raised the same day, but they have only got back to me today.

 

[Watershed]

Yes. Double the single fair so £47.60.

the appeal was raised the same day, but they have only got back to me today.

£47.60 doesn't sound right - there's no fare that is £23.80. Did this happen on the way to Cannon Street or on the way back? What time did you travel?

Issuing a Penalty Fare for the wrong value is another ground of appeal you can bring up.

As you have raised an appeal against the Penalty Fare, Southeastern's only remaining recourse (should you fail to pay the Penalty Fare) is to sue you. They cannot prosecute you anymore - there is a statutory bar under regulation 11 of the Penalty Fares Regulations. I am also not aware of any TOC suing passengers for unpaid Penalty Fares.

Accordingly, even if you make a second or third stage appeal and this is denied, ultimately there is nothing directly forcing you to pay. Based on the information you have provided, you shouldn't have been issued with a Penalty Fare anyway, as you had permission from a member of staff to board the train.

 

[furlong]

Continue with a further appeal - the 3rd level of appeal is supposed to be more independent so don't be surprised if you have to appeal two times more.
Try to match up what happened against the relevant paragraphs of the penalty fares regulations that explain how someone permitted to board without a valid ticket cannot be issued with a penalty fare. (They are not straightforward to read but in essence the burden of proof is on the train company to demonstrate what you say about receiving permission was not true, otherwise the appeal gets upheld by default.)

 

[FedUpWithSE]

You prompted me to look at the app. The ticket I’d got that day was an anytime return, so was in fact £43.20. Normally I would get an off peak day return which other times has cost me £24.10. So you are right that it doesn’t seem like the penalty fair is quite right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2022 ==

You prompted me to look at the app. The ticket I’d got that day was an anytime return, so was in fact £43.20. Normally I would get an off peak day return which other times has cost me £24.10. So you are right that it doesn’t seem like the penalty fair is quite right.

Whoops, must be tired. Single is 23.90 for anytime single so £47.80 which is what’s written on the penalty fair.

 

[some bloke]

the guy said he couldn’t do anything with it and said speak to the train conductor ass soon as I got on. I followed this advice and the conductor was very understanding but said that their mobile terminals can do nothing to confirm the ticket and let me stay on till the destination.

After explaining in my appeal that neither the ticket desk or guard, stopped or advised me to not get on or continue the journey.

Just in case:

In the appeal, did you make clear enough that they gave you permission to board/stay on, rather than just not objecting - which might be seen as more consistent with inattention than permission? Could it be useful to spell out more about what you and they said?

Are you sure the ticket clerk in effect said to board and travel, rather than try to find the conductor to sort it out before travel? Did the conductor give permission before the train left?

If you post your appeal text here with identifying details removed, people may have specific suggestions for the next appeal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2022 ==

Try to match up what happened against the relevant paragraphs of the penalty fares regulations that explain how someone permitted to board without a valid ticket cannot be issued with a penalty fare. (They are not straightforward to read but in essence the burden of proof is on the train company to demonstrate what you say about receiving permission was not true, otherwise the appeal gets upheld by default.)

That's a very good point. Perhaps say something like (if it reflects the facts):

"Under Penalty Fares regulation 16(4), the Appeal Panel should have required the train operating company to "provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates" that my contention that I was permitted to travel without a valid ticket "is not true".

I refer the Panel to regulation 16(5)(a)(iii). It applied because I put forward as a ground for appeal that regulation 6(2)(d) applied.".

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made


Have a look at the relevant parts to see if you agree, so that you know what you are claiming.