Class 379 updates (all are OFF LEASE)

[Agent_Squash]

Curious to what you mean by drained?

Believe the 365s were in cold storage - they didn’t have any power and they weren’t maintained as regularly. Happy to be corrected, though!

 

[357]

For clarification regarding coupling a 387 and 379...

Class 387 can electrically couple to other Electrostars, for example Class 377s, providing operational procedures are put in place to manage the lack of a DOO system, the incompatibility of the saloon CCTV system, and that a common SDO/TCMS database is installed on the Units

I'm not aware that 379s have a different electrical coupler to other Electrostars - but knowing Bombardier it is possible, and also possible they forgot to put it in their own documents...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Who paid for them to be built in the first place? And will passengers or taxpayers end up paying for the waste?

So no, the taxpayer is not on the hook for not utilising the 379s (or 350/2s). The private sector (current 379 owners Akiem) took the risk.
Some fleets had a leasing guarantee from the DfT (eg the 350/1s until 2025), but the 350/2 and 379 fleets do not have a DfT guarantee.

 

[A0]

Who paid for them to be built in the first place? And will passengers or taxpayers end up paying for the waste?

The leasing company took on the cost of the build - it's a bit like with private cars and PCPs, not all cars are built to order instead the manufacturers take on the risk of building them and then use PCPs to "sell" them (of course they are never sold, they are basically leased to the person who signed up to the PCP).

So the ROSCO is on the hook for the costs until such time as the units are leased by somebody else - so the ROSCO has to take a decision on the leasing rates. Either they can keep them high and risk that nobody will take them, they can reduce the leasing rate in order to secure a future for them, or they can dispose of the asset to try to cover their costs. It's down to the ROSCO to make that decision.

 

[Xavi]

Neither 379s or 350/2s are likely to be scrapped. Whilst the DfT is right to try and reduce the lease cost (GWR tender), to not agree a lease for these young assets would significantly increase the cost of ALL future leases as lenders will increase the risk rating of UK Rail. Then again is DfT capable of understanding this basic rule of leasing?!

 

[QSK19]

I think the scrapyard beckons for 379s. Unfortunately.

Absolutely not, especially considering that TOCs like EMR are desperate for reliable EMUs - it’s been discussed to death how they’ve struggled with the 360s.

Sharing the same view as a few others, I feel completely confident that the 379s won’t be scrapped.

 

[cactustwirly]

They're using DMUs on Thames Valley services entirely under the wires, aren't they? That says to me they need more EMUs, not fewer.

They haven't for some time, all booked 387 except late/early services for ECS purposes

 

[ert47]

For clarification regarding coupling a 387 and 379...

Class 387 can electrically couple to other Electrostars, for example Class 377s, providing operational procedures are put in place to manage the lack of a DOO system, the incompatibility of the saloon CCTV system, and that a common SDO/TCMS database is installed on the Units

By lack of DOO system, do you mean incompatibility of the DOO systems on both units? All 377s have body side mounted cameras like the later built Electrostar models (376s excepted)

 

[Railperf]

Absolutely not, especially considering that TOCs like EMR are desperate for reliable EMUs - it’s been discussed to death how they’ve struggled with the 360s.

Sharing the same view as a few others, I feel completely confident that the 379s won’t be scrapped.

The 360's were one of the most reliable fleets on the network - as good as - if not better than the 379's. SO the issue is not with the trains but the servicing and maintenance teams.
Clearly the majority of staff maintaining these on the GEML have stayed over there. The trains might move to a new operator but the staff and maintenance facilities don't. I'd argue that sending 379's to EMR would have been just as troublesome - the servicing expertise is not there!

 

[A0]

The 360's were one of the most reliable fleets on the network - as good as - if not better than the 379's. SO the issue is not with the trains but the servicing and maintenance teams.
Clearly the majority of staff maintaining these on the GEML have stayed over there. The trains might move to a new operator but the staff and maintenance facilities don't. I'd argue that sending 379's to EMR would have been just as troublesome - the servicing expertise is not there!

The 360s decline actually started when they were still on GA - so your comment isn't quite correct. Though I agree, I don't think the 379s would have fared any better on EMR.

Add in the 360s are being sent to Northampton Kings Heath for heavy maintenance and that depot is a Siemens one which looks after LNWR's fleet of 350s which are essentially the same units with a different cab, and the 350s have a pretty good record overall.

 

[43096]

The 360s decline actually started when they were still on GA - so your comment isn't quite correct. Though I agree, I don't think the 379s would have fared any better on EMR.

Add in the 360s are being sent to Northampton Kings Heath for heavy maintenance and that depot is a Siemens one which looks after LNWR's fleet of 350s which are essentially the same units with a different cab.

But the same would apply to the 379s. They would also have had to have heavy maintenance done elsewhere (Hornsey?).

 

[RailWonderer]

The 360s decline actually started when they were still on GA - so your comment isn't quite correct. Though I agree, I don't think the 379s would have fared any better on EMR.

Only because GA did not renew the full maintanance contract with Siemens from 2019 onwards because they were replacing them.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 360's were one of the most reliable fleets on the network - as good as - if not better than the 379's. SO the issue is not with the trains but the servicing and maintenance teams.
Clearly the majority of staff maintaining these on the GEML have stayed over there. The trains might move to a new operator but the staff and maintenance facilities don't. I'd argue that sending 379's to EMR would have been just as troublesome - the servicing expertise is not there!

It nearly always happens when you move traction / rolling stock from one operation to another. The crews and artisans and Controllers all need rto build experience with their "new" fleets.

 

[bramling]

The 360s decline actually started when they were still on GA - so your comment isn't quite correct. Though I agree, I don't think the 379s would have fared any better on EMR.

Add in the 360s are being sent to Northampton Kings Heath for heavy maintenance and that depot is a Siemens one which looks after LNWR's fleet of 350s which are essentially the same units with a different cab, and the 350s have a pretty good record overall.

There’s also an argument to say that the logistics of the London-Corby operation are by no means optimal. As well as units having to be taken to Northampton, on top of this Cauldwell is not ideally sited, which means there’s significant outstabling and no convenient seamless non-disruptive way to get units to/from Cauldwell if something arises. Essentially Cauldwell isn’t quite in the right place relative to what the trains do each day, and this can’t be helping. On this basis, I think whatever units had been chosen things would have run into problems, even if they’d come over in perfect shape.

 

[43102EMR]

The 360s decline actually started when they were still on GA - so your comment isn't quite correct. Though I agree, I don't think the 379s would have fared any better on EMR.

Add in the 360s are being sent to Northampton Kings Heath for heavy maintenance and that depot is a Siemens one which looks after LNWR's fleet of 350s which are essentially the same units with a different cab, and the 350s have a pretty good record overall.

There’s no denying the fact that passengers would be more willing to accept the 379s as they are now compared to the 360s - that definitely would have helped EMR more on the value for money front.

 

[357]

By lack of DOO system, do you mean incompatibility of the DOO systems on both units? All 377s have body side mounted cameras like the later built Electrostar models (376s excepted)

That was taken directly from the Southern 387 operating manual, maybe it means compatible DOO system?

 

[A0]

There’s no denying the fact that passengers would be more willing to accept the 379s as they are now compared to the 360s - that definitely would have helped EMR more on the value for money front.

Just because the seats are different ?

The passengers have accepted the 360s because they're using them. Those that aren't are probably working from home so don't need to commute as they previously did.

 

[43102EMR]

Just because the seats are different ?

The passengers have accepted the 360s because they're using them. Those that aren't are probably working from home so don't need to commute as they previously did.

Considering passenger numbers are at 92% of pre-pandemic levels now and continuously rising, the work from home argument is starting to become a lot less relevant.

Not just the seats - power sockets at all seats, two toilets, more luggage space for travellers to Luton Airport… the list goes on. Would have been a lot less work for EMR too in terms of bringing the fleet up to scratch.

I also don’t believe that passengers have quite accepted them yet, considering the continued amount of complaints EMR are receiving about them via social media etc.

 

[Railperf]

There’s no denying the fact that passengers would be more willing to accept the 379s as they are now compared to the 360s - that definitely would have helped EMR more on the value for money front.

The 379s are looking tired internally too.

 

[aleggatta]

That was taken directly from the Southern 387 operating manual, maybe it means compatible DOO system?

For reference, 377’s have a Faiveley Camera system, and 379/387 have a PETARDS system (same as that fitted on 700’s). The southern operating manual would have been written without any thought of 387s coming across 379’s, and would have been written largely reflecting ‘classic’ electrostar variants

 

[43102EMR]

The 379s are looking tired internally too.

Maybe so, but less so than the 360s which haven’t had a proper interior change since they were built in 2002/3!

 

[Railperf]

Maybe so, but less so than the 360s which haven’t had a proper interior change since they were built in 2002/3!

Well the plan was for EMR to refurbish them internally. The 379s would also have required refurbishing ..they aren't much newer.

 

[43102EMR]

Well the plan was for EMR to refurbish them internally. The 379s would also have required refurbishing ..they aren't much newer.

Even then it was due to start later than their introduction, meaning passengers would have had to suffer them in their current condition for a while yet anyways. At least in terms of features and seating arrangements, the 379s would have been a closer like-for-like Meridian replacement from the get go.

 

[Railperf]

Even then it was due to start later than their introduction, meaning passengers would have had to suffer them in their current condition for a while yet anyways. At least in terms of features and seating arrangements, the 379s would have been a closer like-for-like Meridian replacement from the get go.

I guess the fact that 379s weren't available at the time is a factor.

 

[43102EMR]

I guess the fact that 379s weren't available at the time is a factor.

That and there were too many of them to lease the entire fleet just for that service - 21 was an ideal fleet size for the initial plans for the Corby route (including peak 12 car workings).

 

[A0]

Considering passenger numbers are at 92% of pre-pandemic levels now and continuously rising, the work from home argument is starting to become a lot less relevant.

I wouldn't be too sure. Very few people I know are back in the office full time, most are back on a part time / hybrid basis at best. Several large companies have significantly scaled back their office space as a reflection of this.

And you've had things like the "Rail Sale" which will have promoted some leisure travel - but with the looming cost of living crisis leisure travel will be one of the first things to be hit as people reign in their discretionary spending.

92% of passenger numbers is irrelevant as a figure on its own - far more relevant would be revenue and also season ticket sales - all compared to 2019.

 

[Railperf]

Far worse situation for West Anglia commuters to lose the 379s and be shunted back onto veteran 317s - which should have been scrapped years ago.

 

[class397tpe]

I think the scrapyard beckons for 379s. Unfortunately.

It just feels insane to send them to the scrapyard when other operators are still operating much older units (e.g. northern with 323s, or scotrail with 318s and 320s). Scotrail would be unlikely due to the need for 3/6 car units, but that wouldn't be an issue with northern as they currently operate 4-car 319s and 3x23m 323s.
Yes, Northern has never operated electrostars before, but neither had they operated 319s or 195s or 331s etc. It feels insane to send the 12-y/o 379s to the scrap while northern continues to operate older worse non-air conditioned 28 y/o 323s, for many more years to come. Considering that they are hoping to end up with 34 3-car 323s, 30 4-car 379s might just work (and be a hell of a lot nicer for passengers).
Tbh, even the 37 class 350/2 would be nice for northern instead of 323s, and provide an upgrade for passengers over 323s, with air conditioning. Just much more modern.

 

[MCR247]

There’s no suggestion they will go to the scrapyard. Only speculation due to the lack of solid info

 

[A0]

It just feels insane to send them to the scrapyard when other operators are still operating much older units (e.g. northern with 323s, or scotrail with 318s and 320s). Scotrail would be unlikely due to the need for 3/6 car units, but that wouldn't be an issue with northern as they currently operate 4-car 319s and 3x23m 323s.
Yes, Northern has never operated electrostars before, but neither had they operated 319s or 195s or 331s etc. It feels insane to send the 12-y/o 379s to the scrap while northern continues to operate older worse non-air conditioned 28 y/o 323s, for many more years to come. Considering that they are hoping to end up with 34 3-car 323s, 30 4-car 379s might just work (and be a hell of a lot nicer for passengers).
Tbh, even the 37 class 350/2 would be nice for northern instead of 323s, and provide an upgrade for passengers over 323s, with air conditioning. Just much more modern.

The problem with 379s instead of 323s for Northern is the 379s are 4 x 20m units, which means they can't be doubled up on various routes due to their length. Whereas the 323s are 3 x 23m, so running 6 car formations is possible. Northern also have 323s already and the ones they are hoping to take from WMR are to replace the 319s - so it gives them a much more common fleet - which should help them with maintenance and driver training.

The 350/2s are the same as the 379s i.e. 4 x 20m.