When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[BrummieBobby]

A man who made his career out of being a bumbling, racist, misogynist clown then acts as a bumbling, racist, misogynist clown when he gains the seals of office; the only people who can be surprised are the idiots that voted for him.

I only hope that there are enough Tory MPs with any sort of moral fibre to see him off this evening, but I wont hold my breath.

 

[MikeWM]

There's a difference between the all politicians lie and what Johnson has done though. He has more than his fair share of the former, and that wouldn't be enough to say that he should go, but when it comes to specific, provable, facts and where he was given numerous opportunities to correct the record but he proceeded to continue to lie, and was eventually proved to have broken the law then his position is simply untenable.

Why should anybody listen to or believe anything he says ever again?

I suppose it depends on whether you think that is a serious enough reason to warrant his removal.

Personally I'm significantly more concerned about the way he took away my liberties, only begrudgingly gave them back, threatened to exclude me from society because I didn't want to undergo a medical treatment, and destroyed the economy, small businesses, and the physical and mental health of the population.

But he's not being removed for any of that - no doubt because all of the people who want to replace him would have done the same things, or worse.

Instead he's being removed because he had a piece of cake, a glass of champagne and a M&S sandwich with his work colleagues - and yes, then lied about it. To be blunt I don't care less about the latter given the other things that have happened, they are tiny. I care a great deal about the former, but I'm also concerned that whoever is next will be still worse in such matters.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was one for which a fixed penalty notice was considered to be suitable punishment. The fact that he didn't challenge the fine and have his day in court is admission of guilt.

Which part of the judiciary made the decision that a fixed penalty notice was a suitable punishment for the referred-to crime? Do I understand that the crime in question is one that a court appearance was not obligatory under the terms of that particular law?

 

[Bayum]

I suppose it depends on whether you think that is a serious enough reason to warrant his removal.

Personally I'm significantly more concerned about the way he took away my liberties, only begrudgingly gave them back, threatened to exclude me from society because I didn't want to undergo a medical treatment, and destroyed the economy, small businesses, and the physical and mental health of the population.

But he's not being removed for any of that - no doubt because all of the people who want to replace him would have done the same things, or worse.

Instead he's being removed because he had a piece of cake, a glass of champagne and a M&S sandwich with his work colleagues - and yes, then lied about it. To be blunt I don't care less about the latter given the other things that have happened, they are tiny. I care a great deal about the former, but I'm also concerned that whoever is next will be still worse in such matters.

And lied about multiple other parties held within his own ‘home’ as he has now referred to it as after telling government and the country that no such things happened, when in fact, No. 10 is now the greatest hot spot of FPNs in the country.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A man who made his career out of being a bumbling, racist, misogynist clown then acts as a bumbling, racist, misogynist clown when he gains the seals of office

You could well be describing Thomas Cromwell above who attained a high post of state office, but in his case, he was executed under the orders of the ruling monarch.

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No. 10 is now the greatest hot spot of FPNs in the country.

What percentage of the FPN issued at 10 Downing Street were against elected politicians and what percentage were issued against unelected civil servants?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think, more than anybody, they know not to believe a word that comes out of his mouth!

with 95 ministers, 45 PPS's and 20 of them acting as trade envoys they have a lot to lose if he's forced out

 

[87 027]

Do I understand that the crime in question is one that a court appearance was not obligatory under the terms of that particular law?

Correct. The relevant regulations (Statutory Instruments) contained wording along the lines of

An authorised person may issue a fixed penalty notice to any person that the authorised person reasonably believes—
(a) has committed an offence under these Regulations, and
(b) is (in the case of an individual) aged 18 or over.
...
In this regulation—
(a)“authorised person” means—
(i)a constable;
(ii)a police community support officer;
(iii)a person designated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this regulation;
(iv)subject to paragraph (10), a person designated by the relevant local authority for the purposes of this regulation;

Should the fixed penalty notice be disputed:

Proceedings for an offence under these Regulations may be brought by the Crown Prosecution Service or any person designated by the Secretary of State.

Sometimes I suspect you already know the answers to the questions you pose!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sometimes I suspect you already know the answers to the questions you pose!

Indeed so, but I suspect there are others who do not.

 

[Darandio]

2018: Rees-Mogg states that 63% on the Theresa May vote was a terrible result and she should resign.
2022: Rees-Mogg states that even a single vote victory tonight is a great result and Johnson should stay.

 

[najaB]

Instead he's being removed because he had a piece of cake, a glass of champagne and a M&S sandwich with his work colleagues - and yes, then lied about it.

No, it isn't about cake.

It is about doing all the things that you are concerned about while he and those around him blatantly flouted those same rules. People died alone and afraid because their families followed those rules. Other people received fines over those rules. People missed out on major life events because they followed those rules. And he didn't just flout those rules, he allowed people around him to break those rules and then he demonstrated ultimate contempt for the people who followed his rules by lying about the fact that he broke them.

He simply is not fit to hold it. Unfortunately, the fact that Tory MPs are largely self-serving will probably be enough to see him cling on for another few months, until the next scandal.

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Do I understand that the crime in question is one that a court appearance was not obligatory under the terms of that particular law?

Obligatory, no, but optional. Anyone can challenge a FPN if they believe they are not guilty of the offense.

 

[Struner]

BBC reporting the leader of the Scottish conservatives has voted against Boris Johnson.

So he thinks Johnson will lose the vote tonight? i never thought him to be very clever?

 

[baz962]

Incidentally, what was the sentence handed down by the judge against the perpetrator of the referred-to crime?

Note that a fixed penalty is not a criminal conviction.

 

[najaB]

So he thinks Johnson will lose the vote tonight? i never thought him to be very clever?

I'm sure that he thinks Johnson will survive. However he knows that the Conservatives aren't popular in Scotland and wants to put some daylight between himself and Scottish party and the national Conservative party.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Note that a fixed penalty is not a criminal conviction.

I do understand this, but there have been other contributors at pains to use the word "crime" on this very thread in their postings that betray their lack of understanding of what a FPN really is. Look back and you will see those very references.

 

[simonw]

Which part of the judiciary made the decision that a fixed penalty notice was a suitable punishment for the referred-to crime? Do I understand that the crime in question is one that a court appearance was not obligatory under the terms of that particular law?

no different from a fixed penalty for, for example, speeding. Not sure what you point is.

 

[Typhoon]

2018: Rees-Mogg states that 63% on the Theresa May vote was a terrible result and she should resign.
2022: Rees-Mogg states that even a single vote victory tonight is a great result and Johnson should stay.

To give him his due, he has said that he had got it wrong in 2018.

It's taken a long time for him to come to that conclusion but he has got there in the end. May be he can now concentrate on one or two other things that he has campaigned on and he might find that he has erred on them as well. I'm sure similar apologies will come in time!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

no different from a fixed penalty for, for example, speeding. Not sure what you point is.

See my posting above.

 

[Bayum]

What percentage of the FPN issued at 10 Downing Street were against elected politicians and what percentage were issued against unelected civil servants?

Does it matter? The point is, Boris knew there were shenanigans going on. He allowed his PR secretary to leave after being caught joking about a ‘party/ies’ that hasn’t taken place. He was then found to have known that gatherings were in fact taking place. In his argument for why he shouldn’t be to blame, his argument was he was there because he lives there.
He is head of the government. He is head of his home and knows (and was found to know) what was going on. Yet he told government and the country it didn’t happen. Right now, I couldn’t give a monkeys about the ratio. It happened under BJ’s watch. BJ knew about it and he should take the flack.

 

[Busaholic]

Sometimes I suspect you already know the answers to the questions you pose!

Heaven, and Jacob Rees-Mogg, forfend.

 

[najaB]

I do understand this, but there have been other contributors at pains to use the word "crime" on this very thread in their postings that betray their lack of understanding of what a FPN really is.

A Fixed Penalty Note is issued when an offense is alleged to have occurred.

While it is true that paying a FPN is not the same thing as a conviction, paying the FPN is an admission that the law was broken as if the person issued a FPN believed that no crime occurred then they would challenge it.

It happened under BJ’s watch. BJ knew about it and he should take the flack.

Exactly!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does it matter? The point is, Boris knew there were shenanigans going on. He allowed his PR secretary to leave after being caught joking about a ‘party/ies’ that hasn’t taken place. He was then found to have known that gatherings were in fact taking place. In his argument for why he shouldn’t be to blame, his argument was he was there because he lives there.
He is head of the government. He is head of his home and knows (and was found to know) what was going on. Yet he told government and the country it didn’t happen. Right now, I couldn’t give a monkeys about the ratio. It happened under BJ’s watch. BJ knew about it and he should take the flack.

I do note your carefully concealed matter of knowledge that with regards to the matter of civil servants who were involved in the referred-to shenanigans, it is the role of the Cabinet Secretary whose remit that is and not that of the Prime Minister. That point has already been clarified earlier in the thread by other contributors.

10 Downing Street in your mind is a cosy home and not the office block with many staff that it is in real life.

 

[Busaholic]

See my posting above.

So, if Sir Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner receive FPNs from Durham plod and pay them, you'd counsel them not to resign as they'd committed no crime?

 

[Bayum]

I do note your carefully concealed matter of knowledge that with regards to the matter of civil servants who were involved in the referred-to shenanigans, it is the role of the Cabinet Secretary whose remit that is and not that of the Prime Minister. That point has already been clarified earlier in the thread by other contributors.

10 Downing Street in your mind is a cosy home and not the office block with many staff that it is in real life.

Only using the PM’s argument against him. Can’t be a home sometimes when it pleases him and other times it not be - when he’s not there. Boris is in charge of the cabinet secretary, no?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So, if Sir Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner receive FPNs from Durham plod and pay them, you'd counsel them not to resign as they'd committed no crime?

Why do you refer to the Durham Constabulary in such a derogatory way? Is it because you are making references to two of the highest ranked members of Her Majesty's Opposition in your posting? I note you give Sir Keir Starmer his correct title, for which I thank you.

It was not I, but others on this thread who brought the association of crime with a FPN, a matter that has already been discussed and fully clarified. I cannot give counsel as you suggest, as the legal knowledge required is a matter I do not possess, nor have I ever claimed to have such knowledge.

 

[brad465]

There are several reports that Theresa May has turned up to vote wearing a ballgown (although no pictures as yet). Even if this was for another event it does have a certain degree of amusement to it in the circumstances.

 

[Struner]

I'm sure that he thinks Johnson will survive. However he knows that the Conservatives aren't popular in Scotland and wants to put some daylight between himself and Scottish party and the national Conservative party.

The national party being?

 

[najaB]

There are several reports that Theresa May has turned up to vote wearing a ballgown (although no pictures as yet). Even if this was for another event it does have a certain degree of amusement to it in the circumstances.

Is that not the appropriate attire for dancing on a grave?

10 Downing Street in your mind is a cosy home and not the office block with many staff that it is in real life.

Well, the Prime Minister actually lives in the flat above Number 11 - which, as it turns out, was the scene of another party, though not one that the Met Police decided to investigate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2022 ==

The national party being?

Not the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party.

 

[Struner]

Is that not the appropriate attire for dancing on a grave?

Well, the Prime Minister actually lives in the flat above Number 11 - which, as it turns out, was the scene of another party, though not one that the Met Police decided to investigate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2022 ==


Not the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party.

But?

 

[MikeWM]

It is about doing all the things that you are concerned about while he and those around him blatantly flouted those same rules. People died alone and afraid because their families followed those rules. Other people received fines over those rules. People missed out on major life events because they followed those rules. And he didn't just flout those rules, he allowed people around him to break those rules and then he demonstrated ultimate contempt for the people who followed his rules by lying about the fact that he broke them.

I have a degree of sympathy for this; I detest hypocrisy in politics and I totally agree that if anyone should be following rules, it should be the person who put them in place.

But my opinion is that putting these rules in the first place is, in my opinion, many times a more egregious act than the (minor) breaks of them that Johnson himself is guilty of, so I find it difficult to get too perturbed about this, given the incessant coverage we've had of this issue for many months, rather than (say) looking at the effects of the rules in the first place and admitting the rules were wrong and the media and opposition were wrong to continually push for more, stricter rules at every juncture.

If everything else was nice and stable and working fine, I'd be complaining about the hypocrisy too. But at this point, there is so much else that I think is considerably worse going on, and my concern is that removing Johnson and replacing him with someone else (eg. Hunt, Gove, or eventually Starmer) will make things even worse still. And I remain worried that this appears to be an *orchestrated* campaign to remove Johnson, the purpose of which is currently unknown - possibly just about power and positioning, but quite possibly a bit more than that. At this point we don't know.

 

[najaB]

But my opinion is that putting these rules in the first place is, in my opinion, many times a more egregious act than the (minor) breaks of them that Johnson himself is guilty of, so I find it difficult to get too perturbed about this, given the incessant coverage we've had of this issue for many months, rather than (say) looking at the effects of the rules in the first place and admitting the rules were wrong and the media and opposition were wrong to continually push for more, stricter rules at every juncture.

Look at it another way. He clearly could not have believed that the rules were necessary if he flouted them so egregiously. So what else has he done/will he do in the future simply because it suits him?

No politician should be treated without suspicion, be he has demonstrated through his actions and through the actions of those he surrounded himself with that he cannot possibly be trusted.

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But?

The Conservative and Unionist Party.