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Avanti's serial cancellations of last trains

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E16 Cyclist

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I'm reading that as "If the guard rostered for the last service of the day goes on long term sick, tough titties for the passengers. Not the rail industry's problem."
It is the rail industry’s problem but as others have tried to tell you a combination of Dft holding the purse strings and Traincrew having terms and conditions primarily for safety but also so they have the same work life balance that everyone else has means the likes of Avanti can only do so much given they only know it’s an issue sometimes only three days before when the roster is posted

Therefore a solution has to come from the top down but there seems to be a lack of will to do so and maybe your perfectly reasonable complaints should be directed in their direction rather than staff for not wanted to do enforced overtime they’re not obliged to do

As an aside a potential sticking plaster to resolve some of the last trains issue would be for avanti to either introduce or expand if they already have one and have a dedicated night shift roster. Surprisingly enough some staff actually like doing these shifts and either swap to do them or do them for a financial incentive
 
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RailUK Forums

All Line Rover

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As far as I’m aware no official “work to rule” has been put in place yet. It’s simply a combination of a shortage in certain grades and people deciding they don’t want to work their rest days (that’s not to say people aren’t working their RDs as they are, just not as much as before).

OK. So there's a management problem that needs addressing. (I struggle to believe that this weekend's shortage could attributed to a vast majority of staff wanting the jubilee weekend off.)

Today is even worse than the past three days. Almost every train on the Manchester route is cancelled, "for no particular reason".

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Therefore a solution has to come from the top down but there seems to be a lack of will to do so and maybe your perfectly reasonable complaints should be directed in their direction rather than staff for not wanted to do enforced overtime they’re not obliged to do

I am not directing my comments specifically at front-line staff. I am directing them at the entire industry. If management and public sector grandees are on here - hello! (now sod off and get your house in order)

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EDIT: Actually I don't need to worry. There's still a good service today!

If Avanti's management are frustrated with government, why pretend to be operating a good service? Why keep their frustration a secret?

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A0

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Some of these arguments are so appalling (and clearly not being made by passengers) that if they are reflective of a general attitude from the top down of "*k passengers", there's one thing I would be willing to lobby for - remove all taxpayer funding from the railway.

If the service gets so bad that I no longer wish to (or can) use it, why should my taxes be funding this ****show? Let the industry fend for itself.

Oh, I don't work in the rail industry so don't speak for them. But I'm also a realist - if there are no spare staff to cover for an illness or absence, then something can't happen - it's a really simple concept. And the more ludicrous suggestions made around here to cover for every such eventuality would incur more and more cost which has to come from somewhere - which will be the taxpayer, and since I'm one of those and a higher rate one to boot, I'm not inclined to support anything which will increase that.
 

express93

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OK. So there's a management problem that needs addressing. (I struggle to believe that this weekend's shortage could attributed to a vast majority of staff wanting the jubilee weekend off.)

Today is even worse than the past three days. Almost every train on the Manchester route is cancelled, "for no particular reason".

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I am not directing my comments specifically at front-line staff. I am directing them at the entire industry. If management and public sector grandees are on here - hello! (now sod off and get your house in order)

I work for another TOC but I have several ex-colleagues/friends that do work for Avanti. From what I’ve heard if there were TM jobs that they were struggling to cover they’d provide a sweetener i.e. throw in a few extra hours OT on-top. That was withdrawn recently and from the sounds of it the company would rather cancel the trains deal with all than pay the £50-£100 (at a guess) in extra OT.
 
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D1537

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Oh, I don't work in the rail industry so don't speak for them. But I'm also a realist - if there are no spare staff to cover for an illness or absence, then something can't happen - it's a really simple concept. And the more ludicrous suggestions made around here to cover for every such eventuality would incur more and more cost which has to come from somewhere - which will be the taxpayer, and since I'm one of those and a higher rate one to boot, I'm not inclined to support anything which will increase that.
Yet the cancellation charges for those dozens of trains, the delay repay costs, and the cost of road transport for those last trains which don't run, will come from the same place.
 

Bow Fell

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So here’s some examples of real dockets are other TOC’s; and a scenario, I’m sure some people will tell me what will happen in their fantasy land.

They involve the last train on a line of route and second to last.

So 1505-2341 & 1647-0033

At 1500 the 1647 turn books sick, there’s no spares and the standby is already covering a job.

So should the 1505 job, be told right you’re covering the last job back now tough luck?

How are you meant to plan your life?

Granted there’s not much you can do at 2341 of a night but you can’t expect people to just to give up any sort of planning and life outside of work.

That’s what being spare is for when you know you can moved 3 hours either side, people forget how much flexibility there actually is on the railway.
 

A0

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Yet the cancellation charges for those dozens of trains, the delay repay costs, and the cost of road transport for those last trains which don't run, will come from the same place.

I bet those costs are less than you think and are less than the alternatives e.g. overtime.
 

Domh245

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The problem is that you need to balance cover for turns that could go uncovered with having excess staff sitting around doing nothing.
Paying staff to "do nothing". Is how the TOC sees it. Far better to run the roster to the absolute minimum and rely on someone doing overtime.

I get that, but my point is that "last train of the day" turns should be the amongst the first turns to be allocated, not that there should be enough staff employed to cover the roster 1.5x over! If you get to the point where those highest priority turns are going consistently uncovered, then either staff numbers are so low that the plug is pulled on the railway or staff are trying it on.
 

jayah

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We keep being told those are happening anyway! It seems like ”but cuts” is now the standard response on here to any aspect of the railway’s operation or culture which people on here dislike.



As I (and others) have pointed out on here HR aren’t going to force people to make small talk or swap shifts with colleagues they prefer not to. Or do you raise a grievance at your employer everyone someone looks at you in a way you don’t like, or doesn’t reciprocate when you talk to them??

It’s odd that people seem so bothered by the possibility of this happening and don’t see any issue with people stabbing their colleagues in the back.
You seem to be trying to steer away from the actual subject.

Ostracism, which is actually what was being discussed, has been proven repeatedly in court in the context of protected characteristics, as has the employers legal duty to deal with it.

The question at hand is why you think your employer doesn't already prohibit it in any circumstances (have you read their policies?) why they would tolerate it in other contexts or why you think your particular place of work is such that you can 'get away' with doing it in such a manner way it cannot be proven?

You also seem to think not going on strike, by virtue of not being in a union or not being able to afford to strike is somehow 'stabbing' people in the back?

As per, an obscene thought process, 40 years past its sell by date, that needs to be 'challenged' to put it politely.
 

D1537

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I bet those costs are less than you think and are less than the alternatives e.g. overtime.
I would be surprised. Anyone booked on some trains today (and yesterday, and Friday...) is going to get their full fare back, and a lot more are going to get half of it. Given the price of tickets, that's a very significant amount of money.
 

muz379

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If the service gets so bad that I no longer wish to (or can) use it, why should my taxes be funding this ****show? Let the industry fend for itself.
My taxes fund education although I plan to have no children, they find healthcare even tho I've not been I'll for years . If we really wanted to have people only fund things that benefit them we'd have pensioners out on the streets and no civil society.
If it it went to a grievance and subsequently a tribunal you will find that where a protected characteristic is involved, very large compensation will result.

Employers won't tolerate this behaviour for a reason and you are well advised to read up on the rules before attempting to put any of these ideas into practice.

It seems to easiest way to avoid these 'bully boy' tactics is to not be in the union, then you cannot strike even if you wanted to.
Ok I'll bite , what protected characteristic ? There's protection from discrimination in the workplace on the basis of being/not being a trade union member . But for an individual to prove that they've been discriminated on this grounds as well as demonstrating that their employer has allowed them to be discriminated they'd have to demonstrate that this was done by people on the basis of TU membership or lack therefore of. I don't know which of my colleagues is or isn't in the union unless they show me a membership card . Theres nothing to stop TU members breaking a strike or work to rule .Of course you'd also have to argue not doing swaps or favours is discrimination

Would you care to point me to these rules ? Because as I've said I know of no rules that can mandate employees to swap shifts/rest days / holidays , speak to each other or cover bits of work .
 
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mmh

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I would be surprised. Anyone booked on some trains today (and yesterday, and Friday...) is going to get their full fare back, and a lot more are going to get half of it. Given the price of tickets, that's a very significant amount of money.
I bet the take up of delay repay is far less than you think. I've quite often not bothered with it or forgotten about it, and I know how the system works - most people won't.
 

muz379

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I get that, but my point is that "last train of the day" turns should be the amongst the first turns to be allocated, not that there should be enough staff employed to cover the roster 1.5x over! If you get to the point where those highest priority turns are going consistently uncovered, then either staff numbers are so low that the plug is pulled on the railway or staff are trying it on.
If that's not how the rostering process is agreed to be done such a change would need to be renegotiated
 
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jayah

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Because as I've said I know of no rules that can mandate employees to swap shifts/rest days / holidays , speak to each other or cover bits of work .
If you haven't read them, you may be able to plead ignorance. It won't wash though.

You seem keen to focus on shift swaps as though that is the only manifestation of ostracism.

It is absolutely provable and if your employer forbids it in any context, which is almost certain in a TOC or Network Rail, then you are back at the fallacy of deniability.
 

muz379

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If you haven't read them, you may be able to plead ignorance. It won't wash though.

You seem keen to focus on shift swaps as though that is the only manifestation of ostracism.

It is absolutely provable and if your employer forbids it in any context, which is almost certain in a TOC or Network Rail, then you are back at the fallacy of deniability.
Care to point me to these supposed rules as I requested , cos with all due respect it sounds like you have very little idea what you are on about.

I've not just focused on shift swaps , I've mentioned speaking to people outside that required by the JD and covering bits of work for folk. All things people do for their friends at work but aren't obliged to do for anyone or everyone .
 

jayah

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Care to point me to these supposed rules as I requested , cos with all due respect it sounds like you have very little idea what you are on about.

I've not just focused on shift swaps , I've mentioned speaking to people outside that required by the JD and covering bits of work for folk. All things people do for their friends at work but aren't obliged to do for anyone or everyone .
Most replies to my comments on this subject start 'they can't force me to swap my shift'.

As per, it isn't actually my job to inform you of the applicable HR policies at your place of work. You are well advised to read them though.

The worst part is that regardless of HR policies there are people actually think ostracism is an acceptable way to behave at work in 2022.
 

Starmill

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OK. So there's a management problem that needs addressing. (I struggle to believe that this weekend's shortage could attributed to a vast majority of staff wanting the jubilee weekend off.)
Why is that difficult to believe? Have you been working this weekend? I certainly haven't. The company are chronically under-resourced. They might be able to paper over the cracks most of the time but not on a relatively warm and dry four day holiday after an unusually long period of disruption to personal lives.

The service is permanently under-resourced by design.
 

muz379

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Most replies to my comments on this subject start 'they can't force me to swap my shift'.

As per, it isn't actually my job to inform you of the applicable HR policies at your place of work. You are well advised to read them though.

The worst part is that regardless of HR policies there are people actually think ostracism is an acceptable way to behave at work in 2022.
So you've still failed to provide me any of these so called "rules" . I've read the procedure agreements at my place of work thanks . Nothing in them about mandating me to be friends with anyone I work with . Nothing even in there about "ostracism" . I'll continue to swap freely with ,talk freely with and do favours freely for who I wish as I have done for a very long time .

I see now you've changed tack from "HR will take you to task" to "ostracism isn't acceptable" . We weren't debating whether it was acceptable, we were debating your spurious claims you could he dismissed for examples of behaviour given when patently you can't be .
 

GordonT

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The service is permanently under-resourced by design.
Well, yes. But when times are calmer on the industrial relations front there's normally sufficient staff actively craving the opportunity to enhance their earnings by means of overtime. Overtime tends to become "a bad thing" at times of industrial unrest.
 

mmh

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You could try a Google search for something like "ostracise employment tribunal." Or search the BBC news website for Liam Byrne MP, who was recently in the news for ostracising an employee.
 

43066

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Ostracism, which is actually what was being discussed, has been proven repeatedly in court in the context of protected characteristics, as has the employers legal duty to deal with it.

Nobody has mentioned anything about protected characteristics. That’s something you’re pulling out of thin air to try and add weight to what you’re saying.

It’s very simple. If people don’t like someone, they won’t talk to them more than the absolute minimum needed to, and won’t go out of their way to help them out. Whether that’s on the railway or in other workplaces I’ve worked in for a decade or so before joining. That isn’t “ostracism”, it’s human nature. There’s absolutely nothing anyone can do about it.

As per, it isn't actually my job to inform you of the applicable HR policies at your place of work.

So why do you keep trying to do it?


You also seem to think not going on strike, by virtue of not being in a union or not being able to afford to strike is somehow 'stabbing' people in the back?

But those people will take the pay rises and other benefits negotiated by the union and indirectly paid for by other union members who also can’t afford to strike or take action. If you don’t like that, nobody forces you to join the industry…
 

Starmill

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Well, yes. But when times are calmer on the industrial relations front there's normally sufficient staff actively craving the opportunity to enhance their earnings by means of overtime. Overtime tends to become "a bad thing" at times of industrial unrest.
The fact that if worked out OK in the past doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good model for operations in the future.
 

Starmill

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Very true but considerably easier to postulate than to implement.
I get what you mean but the post I was responding to claimed there's a management problem. I was pointing out that it's actually the case that Avanti are committed to running far more services than they really have the resources to, and it's not really a bug that it frequently doesn't work, it's a feature. I didn't postulate on the answer to that, but if I were to do so I would say that the most likely solution would be to run significantly fewer services. The next mostly likely solution would be to moderate your expectations about reliability. I expect neither would be palatable.
 

judethegreat

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Thanks all for the insights :)

Re rostering. Obviously it would be better to recruit more staff. Without that, if i understand correctly, staff work 8-ish hour shifts, plus, if they choose, 4-ish hours overtime, and certain moves are covered permanently on overtime? This is how it was in Royal Mail 30 years ago, dunno about now. If this is correct, how feasable would it be to rearrange it all so that the last (few), and indeed first (few) trains are covered on standard shifts, and all overtime is in the middle of the day, on the end of earlies/beginning of lates? Or as someone suggested, cover them on night turns?

This must all be worked out with full cooperation with, and approval from, the people who will actually be working the shifts - and their unions, to provide support and also ensure a level of solidarity and publicity. Which brings me to
The whole "scab" culture is something that should be left back in the 1980s where it belongs. If it still exists today it needs stamping out because it did the TU movement no favours, and caused way more damage than it solved.
Absolutely, levels of hate towards "scabs" need to be kept in check - everyone has their reasons, aswell as a right to opinions - but perhaps rather than look at it as whether or not a person joins or breaks a strike, look at it as having solidarity with their colleagues (customers of a business need to look at this aswell*). After all, you would appreciate solidarity if you had a grievance. And as others have said, if you benefit from a change in working practices or whatever but haven't sacrificed for it (remember, people don't get paid while on strike), you can understand people having an issue.

*It does need to be acknowledged, however, that strikes are not necessarily always the best PR move, especially in our bought and paid for mainstream media driven world. Years ago when benefit staff went on strike and claimants didn't get paid, someone suggested what they could instead have done was issue maximum payouts. That way claimants would be totally on their side, rather than simply hating them even more than they did anyway. This could perhaps manifest in the railway as simply letting people travel free. Tactics like this would not only garner much more support, but may be listened to by the desired people a little bit sooner. Anyway, drifting off topic...

Back to this current issue, one or two people suggested the government, for whatever reasons, may be happy for more people to use cars (or planes) rather than trains, thus potentially little incentive to intervene here. I had been wondering the same, but also if there could perhaps be an element of the age old tactic of running something down, or atleast not improving it, so as to bribe people into accepting or even demanding whatever alternative is put on the table. In this case possibly to quell opposition to HS2?
 
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Bletchleyite

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It's also easy to cherry pick a single day to use as your example of an endemic problem.......

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Yes but 4 people on a Pendolino isn't a compelling reason to run it. Arguably far better - from the railway's perspective - that they use the capacity on a late LNW train to Northampton.

That a train is in the timetable is a compelling reason to run it. Whether it should be is an entirely separate question wholly irrelevant to this thread.
 

A0

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I'd love to know your working out on that one.

Because overtime will be at least +20% of the staffing cost. Not running the train will incur zero running costs, so a saving.

Providing a coach, even at short notice, will be cheaper than paying the cost of running the train plus staff costs and overtime.

And government figures suggest only about 50% of passengers bother with delay repay claims.
 
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