Russia invades Ukraine

[najaB]

Four launchers.

Four to start with, almost certainly more to follow. And four HIMARS can do a *lot* of damage if they're sufficiently supplied with missile pods.

Not only that, the way the Russians are targeting newly arriving weaponry they'll be lucky to make it out of the packing cases!

Given that range of HIMARS they can pound the Russian frontline while staying well outside the danger zone of anything coming back the other direction. And you can bet your bottom dollar that they will have a ring of anti-aircraft weapons surrounding the launchers.

 

[dakta]

The best thing that could happen now is an immediate ceasefire, with the ceasefire lines (with minor adjustments) becoming the permanent Ukraine-Russia frontier, and lifting of all sanctions and trade barriers. Further loss of life and economic disruption would worsen the tragedy.

Your next door neighbor is going to move his borders so you lose half your garden. You can't reason with them but you could probably batter him but you'd risk at least a black eye in return. Since hurting others is bad, getting hurt is bad, and having to take time off work to deal with any police reports or other fallout may have short term financial consequences the only possible recommendation is you acclimatize and make peace with your new situation.

You may have moved some furtniture rather late which has kept them up on occasion, and the bbq you had a few weeks ago made quite a lot of smoke so something had to be conceded

...

 

[Roast Veg]

Your next door neighbor is going to move his borders so you lose half your garden. You can't reason with them but you could probably batter him but you'd risk at least a black eye in return. Since hurting others is bad, getting hurt is bad, and having to take time off work to deal with any police reports or other fallout may have short term financial consequences the only possible recommendation is you acclimatize and make peace with your new situation.

You may have moved some furtniture rather late which has kept them up on occasion, and the bbq you had a few weeks ago made quite a lot of smoke so something had to be conceded

...

I rather prefer the abusive partner analogy, but this is good too.

 

[Strathclyder]

I do think the original plan was to get into Kyiv, kill/capture Zelensky and install a puppet government before anyone knew what was happening.

Indeed. Forcibly turn it into another Belarus effectively.

The Russians appeared to have no idea whatsoever that Ukraine was ready for them, and they appeared to get a tremendous shock when Ukrainian civilians started gleefully wrecking them with Molotov cocktails.

Not only did they have nary a clue that Ukraine was more than ready for them, some Russian soliders apparently thought in the opening stages of the war - they had it drummed into them by their higher-ups - that the Ukrainian people would actually welcome them as liberators, which only speaks to the level of deception they were subject to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2022 ==

Your next door neighbor is going to move his borders so you lose half your garden. You can't reason with them but you could probably batter him but you'd risk at least a black eye in return. Since hurting others is bad, getting hurt is bad, and having to take time off work to deal with any police reports or other fallout may have short term financial consequences the only possible recommendation is you acclimatize and make peace with your new situation.

You may have moved some furtniture rather late which has kept them up on occasion, and the bbq you had a few weeks ago made quite a lot of smoke so something had to be conceded

...

Perhaps the most fitting analogy for this war that I've seen.

 

[DustyBin]

Four launchers.

FOUR!

Oh and with all sorts of restrictions on their use.

Not only that, the way the Russians are targeting newly arriving weaponry they'll be lucky to make it out of the packing cases!

Yes four, but it’s the equivalent of twenty four GRADs, and crucially they can engage targets accurately at a much longer range.

By “all sorts of restrictions” what you really mean is the Ukrainians have been told not to attack Russia itself, which isn’t exactly onerous is it?

Is there any evidence of Russia successfully targeting newly arrived weaponry? Unverified claims on RT don’t count, incidentally……

 

[dakta]

Not when one side is nothing but state-controlled lies and propaganda, no.

Indeed. Forcibly turn it into another Belarus effectively.


Not only did they have nary a clue that Ukraine was more than ready for them, some Russian soliders apparently thought in the opening stages of the war - they had it drummed into them by their higher-ups - that the Ukrainian people would actually welcome them as liberators, which only speaks to the level of deception they were subject to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2022 ==


Perhaps the most fitting analogy for this war that I've seen.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion and nobody wants loss of life but to concede anything to prevent it and 'keep the bullies happy' is dangerous, such people become pillars supporting the problem. Without wanting to single daodao out such views need to be challenged every time

 

[DustyBin]

Everyone's entitled to an opinion and nobody wants loss of life but to concede anything to prevent it and 'keep the bullies happy' is dangerous, such people become pillars supporting the problem. Without wanting to single daodao out such views need to be challenged every time

It’s difficult to tell whether certain posters believe in appeasement simply as a way to end the war, or actually support what the Russians are doing and want to see them succeed……

 

[kylemore]

It won't be the first time a fearful and therefore more likely to be gullible public was told that "wonder weapons" were just around the corner and would change the inevitable.

 

[takno]

It’s difficult to tell whether certain posters believe in appeasement simply as a way to end the war, or actually support what the Russians are doing and want to see them succeed……

I think some of them are Trumpist ultras who have a particular dislike of Ukraine over the Hunter Biden thing, and absolutely hate anything Biden senior does on principle. It's a peculiar lens for Europeans to have on events happening a few hundred miles away on the same continent, but we are where we are.

 

[Yew]

It won't be the first time a fearful and therefore more likely to be gullible public was told that "wonder weapons" were just around the corner and would change the inevitable.

What is this 'inevitable' you speak of?

 

[DustyBin]

What is this 'inevitable' you speak of?

And what are these “wonder weapons”?

 

[Yew]

And what are these “wonder weapons”?

I presume that they are a reference to the Wünder waffe of German WW2 fame. Unfortunately the poster doesn't seem to realise that there is a difference between diverting domestic production capacity to create experimental weapons of dubious design and effectiveness; compared to what we actually have in this situation, highly effective and proven weapons systems that were designed for this exact role, and manufactured abroad.


Quite simply, Ukraine is getting modern equipment specifically designed for the scenario of a Russian attack into Europe. Meanwhile Russia is attacking with ancient soviet equipment. Do you know the last time I saw a T72? It was literally in a museum in Poland.

 

[TheEdge]

The best thing that could happen now is an immediate ceasefire, with the ceasefire lines (with minor adjustments) becoming the permanent Ukraine-Russia frontier, and lifting of all sanctions and trade barriers. Further loss of life and economic disruption would worsen the tragedy.

Why, really not going well for the Soviet Union, sorry, I mean Russia? They are now being pushed back out of Severodonetsk, quicker they get their white peace better the result looks at home?

 

[DustyBin]

I presume that they are a reference to the Wünder waffe of German WW2 fame. Unfortunately the poster doesn't seem to realise that there is a difference between diverting domestic production capacity to create experimental weapons of dubious design and effectiveness; compared to what we actually have in this situation, highly effective and proven weapons systems that were designed for this exact role, and manufactured abroad.


Quite simply, Ukraine is getting modern equipment specifically designed for the scenario of a Russian attack into Europe. Meanwhile Russia is attacking with ancient soviet equipment. Do you know the last time I saw a T72? It was literally in a museum in Poland.

Well yes I presumed the same. As you correctly point out however, there’s no comparison between the modern but tried and tested equipment being supplied to Ukraine, and Hitler’s WWII “wonder weapons” which were either experimental, too few in number, or plain ineffective (or a combination of all three!).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anything dramatic occurred over the last day or so in this conflict?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

From the Kyiv Independent on Twitter:

Ukrzaliznytsia confirms 4 Russian missiles hit repair plant in Kyiv on June 5, rejects Russia’s claim that plant stored tanks, military vehicles.

“This plant repaired gondola cars and grain trucks, which we use for export. (Russia’s) real target is Ukraine’s economy and the civilian population,” said CEO of Ukraine's railway operator Ukrzaliznytsia Oleksandr Kamyshin.

One plant worker was injured in the attack.

 

[Roast Veg]

Has anything dramatic occurred over the last day or so in this conflict?

The battle for Sievierodonetsk is ongoing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have just realised that one of the tram stops on the Sheffield Supertram system is called Donetsk Way.

 

[DustyBin]

Has anything dramatic occurred over the last day or so in this conflict?

Not particularly, but it appears that the Russian offensive in the Sievierodonetsk area has now stalled, and Ukraine is counterattacking with some success.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Has anything dramatic occurred over the last day or so in this conflict?

The most dramatic thing is that the Russians are throwing everything at Sievierodonetsk and yet they've been pushed back. There are now more and more reports that it was a deliberate ploy by the UAF, and that the UAF counterattack is possibly up to 75% of the city under their control. There's also a counterattack underway in Izyum, which could sever some of the Russian supply lines. Also, an LPR (first reported as DPR) commander has been killed.

If the Russians get pushed out of Sievierodonetsk, then we can expect them to have suffered tremendous losses.

It won't be the first time a fearful and therefore more likely to be gullible public was told that "wonder weapons" were just around the corner and would change the inevitable.

These are not wonder weapons. These are basic NATO artillery weapons that will be able to hit previously secure Russian bases. In the case of Crimea, these weapons will potentially reach to the Crimean border, meaning that there's almost nowhere for the Russians to hide within the Southern sector.

 

[daodao]

I have just realised that one of the tram stops on the Sheffield Supertram system is called Donetsk Way.

Sheffield and Cardiff are (?were) twin cities of Donetsk and Lugansk respectively; steel is the connection. And mentioning Cardiff, an excellent result there just now. Cymru am byth.

 

[farleigh]

If it were not for the cowardly tactics the Russians are employing against civilians, their armed forces would be funny. To think that when I grew up we were petrified of the USSR and now all that remains is a sad old man directing war crimes by a piticul army that doesn't want to be there and would struggle to take territory in a game of Monopoly

A woeful mess all round.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just watching The Hunt for Red October on 5Star.

I had forgotten that the political officer on board the boat was called ‘Putin‘

He meets an untimely demise (at the hands of Sean Connery).

 

[GusB]

If it were not for the cowardly tactics the Russians are employing against civilians, their armed forces would be funny. To think that when I grew up we were petrified of the USSR and now all that remains is a sad old man directing war crimes by a piticul army that doesn't want to be there and would struggle to take territory in a game of Monopoly

A woeful mess all round.

To be fair, they are rather good at buying up expensive London properties

 

[JamesT]

Just watching The Hunt for Red October on 5Star.

I had forgotten that the political officer on board the boat was called ‘Putin‘

He meets an untimely demise (at the hands of Sean Connery).

Though the character is Ivan rather than Vladimir. I don’t suppose the politician was well-known in the West when Tom Clancy wrote his book in 1984.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though the character is Ivan rather than Vladimir. I don’t suppose the politician was well-known in the West when Tom Clancy wrote his book in 1984.

I think that's a safe assumption. He'd have been a junior, or perhaps a mid-ranked at most, KGB officer in 1984. Basically one of many in the KGB.

 

[Bald Rick]

Though the character is Ivan rather than Vladimir. I don’t suppose the politician was well-known in the West when Tom Clancy wrote his book in 1984.

I think that's a safe assumption. He'd have been a junior, or perhaps a mid-ranked at most, KGB officer in 1984. Basically one of many in the KGB.

it is Ivan. And definitely coincidental. But curious nonetheless.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I think that's a safe assumption. He'd have been a junior, or perhaps a mid-ranked at most, KGB officer in 1984. Basically one of many in the KGB.

It's hard to say exactly what he was doing there. He had received further training at the Red Banner Institute, which means that he was certainly earmarked for bigger things before he went to Dresden. It's very possible that he was in a senior position in Dresden, though.

 

[Pete_uk]

From Sky News:
It's a not insignificant move by London and Washington and underlines how invested the two governments still are in this conflict. The missile systems can hit targets with "pin-point accuracy" up to 50 miles away, which will allow Ukrainian forces to strike Russian supply lines and Russian long-range artillery, deep behind the frontlines.
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More of this please

 

[Cloud Strife]

This is just insane. It seems that the Ukrainians nearly pushed the Russians out of Severodonetsk, then they've fallen back so that the "LPR" troops can come in again. Incredibly, they did exactly that.

In related news, it seems that the Russian commander has been given until the 10th to secure the Bakhmut - Lysychansk road. Observers were already suggesting that if Russia loses the Battle of Severodonetsk, then it's all over. Maybe this is why the "LPR" are throwing people in the killing fields, because this is really their last chance. The tragic thing is that these "LPR" troops are mostly civilians at this point, and they likely don't have much of a chance against the Ukrainian forces.